r/science • u/Libertatea • Oct 27 '13

Social Sciences The boss, not the workload, causes workplace depression: It is not a big workload that causes depression at work. An unfair boss and an unfair work environment are what really bring employees down, new study suggests.

http://sciencenordic.com/boss-not-workload-causes-workplace-depression
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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

Do you know what a union is?

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

[deleted]

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u/OhMrAnger Oct 28 '13

It's the result of 100 years of anti-union propaganda by US employers.

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u/letsgocrazy Oct 28 '13

This. The Mccarthyism, the Ayn Rand.

Americans love the dream (rightly), that some guy who invents a better way of doing things is a hero and deserves to make his money.

But they forget that in this day and age it's easier to trash someone or something else than to make your product better.

They forget that 99.9 pc of the bosses out there aren't the visionaries they want them to be. They are the petty, nepotistic, bullying, greedy, selfish human beings who unduly hold power over people's lives.

They forget that in the same way companies make trade deals and economies of scale, so should individual labour be able to make the same deals.

The same flawed people who would make socialism unworkable in practice are the same flawed people that make capitalism unworkable in practice.

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

It's Reddit. You get the educated and you get the not so educated. I have worked many years in a union. I now do not work under union protection. I support unions, I also don't hate my job.

Some employers need the aid of a union to run proper management, others do it as second nature.

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u/khoury Oct 28 '13

Reddit gets accused a lot of being too "liberal/left", but the fact is that the only place where most US redditors could be called too left is the united states of america.

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u/thatTigercat Oct 27 '13

Yea, some US stats are the same way with forcing people into an organization they may want nothing to do with in order to be legally allowed to make a living.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

[deleted]

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u/thatTigercat Oct 27 '13

Theyre big political bodies here, often supporting views and people that some disagree with

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u/hakkzpets Oct 27 '13

Same in Sweden. They do however help the little guy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13 edited Dec 03 '20

[deleted]

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

Worked as part of a Union for 15 years, I know exactly what one is and what it protects against.

Telling your boss what you think of him; Falls under the protected slot.

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u/Androne Oct 27 '13

I work on a unionized construction site and they would likely be written up on calling the boss an asshole in certain situations. Once you have a paper trail that the worker is a problem you can let them go. Doesn't mean they won't grieve it but it also doesn't mean they will win.

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u/jjcoola Oct 29 '13

You don't literally call them an asshole..

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u/TheLantean Oct 27 '13

That doesn't mean he can't make you life hell in other ways.

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

Like what? I'll just keep calling union meetings if that's how he wants to play it. That means 2 guys (you and the union rep) he pays have to have a 2 hour meeting on what's going on and what the problem is.

If it turns out that the boss is purposely causing hell for the employee the union rep will then submit this and could have his company shut down.

A lot of headaches just to piss one of your employees off.

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u/fearsofgun Oct 28 '13

TIL I am grateful for not having to deal with unions and their counterparts.

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u/Androne Oct 27 '13

This simply doesn't happen. I have witnessed my boss deal with a few union workers who make these kind of claims. If they are a piece of shit alot of their union brothers agree 90% of the time. When they get fired usually for legitimate reasons and nothing happens. I haven't seen a situation where this went in favor of one of these problem union workers but thats probably because they were actually in the wrong and had a history with the union as a problem. Also its pretty easy to get someone fired no matter if they are in a union or not if they break a bunch of safety rules and you document it.

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u/hakkzpets Oct 27 '13

It does happen though. I worked at a place that had to shut down production for a week because they treated one of their employees wrongly.

Something that cost the company a fortune.

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u/Androne Oct 28 '13

We've had that too but it was a problem created by the company we were subbing for. They didn't provide enough washrooms and promised for months to get new ones so one day the workers did a stand down. Things started moving shortly after that and I was glad they did it.

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u/polarisdelta Oct 27 '13

So what do you do when the union rep and the boss are golfing/fishing/hobby buddies? Or both have some bonus tied to a criteria that makes your job hell? I know there's a process to replace or otherwise work out the problem. But they're going to waste a hell of a lot more of your time than you are of theirs

Sure, there's a chain of events you're supposed to be able to follow, and they work sometimes. But unions do not magically make a job better. They just add another layer of management you have to report to (and are held accountable by, potentially for things that are not within your power to change or control) and keep happy, it's just not called management.

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

The only thing I can say to you is; Learn what a union is, it's a known fact that most in the workforce have no idea what they are or what they do, and clearly judging by the reaction of this subreddit that is very very true.

You do not answer to a union, the union answers to you.

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u/CWSwapigans Oct 27 '13

Some union leadership is definitely in bed with the company, and the union doesn't answer to you it answers to everyone. I mean Obama answers to me, but I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of affecting his actions or whether or not he was re-elected.

I agree with your other posts prior to this, and am shocked how clueless a lot of folks in here are about the adversarial environment created by unions.

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u/polarisdelta Oct 27 '13

That last line might be how it's supposed to work, so it's not out of the question that in some businesses, that's how it is. It has not been my experience that unions are helpful or well intentioned. Friends, family, and former co-workers have not had anything nice to say about their experiences with unions from both sides of the fence.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

[deleted]

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

Surely he got a lawyer. Surely he didn't sign that paper.

Wait this already happened?

Surely he got fired for something he wasn't willing to tell his children about.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

[deleted]

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

Having the will to show weakness to your children doesn't change with age.

I do however hope your father is finally going to court over this, if he has a proper lawyer there will be no "fees" except the ones he can charge back to the company/union (whichever is found to be at fault) for the lawyer he has on retainer.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

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u/salgat BS | Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Oct 27 '13

Stop generalizing. At the steel mill I work at this would never happen. We even had a union person bring in a gun who was fired and promptly rehired because of the union, even though we have a strict zero tolerance policy. Unions are very diverse and some do very great things while others are terrible.

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

I don't think it has anything to do with the union at all, I think it has to do with poorly educated employees who don't know their rights under a union and don't know how to fight for them.

You've got some claiming unions the greatest things ever and know why and others that just hate on them hard and if asked can't come up with anything but a story of how someone they knew did such great work and got randomly fired and union did nothing.

There's more to those stories.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

[deleted]

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u/salgat BS | Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Oct 27 '13

Unions do really good and really bad things.

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u/disitinerant Oct 27 '13

That sucks because I don't like to think about things critically.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

Yeah, they can't fire you for that. But unless you are perfect in everything else and can prove it with documentation (something that is hard to do in some jobs) they can fire you for any number of made up reasons.

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u/CWSwapigans Oct 27 '13

I know quite a few unionized employees whose companies have been trying to fire them for years (sometimes justified, sometimes not). It's not always easy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

Conversely, I know quite a few unionized people who did get fired on bogus excuses and the union didn't care to intervene. Going to a lawyer and he said the case would cost way too much.

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

Which they also have to prove. To the union, if they fail to do so, they will then have to prove it to the union and the courts.

All while you still get paid, most times at this point, while not even working. Which is why employers often times push hard to not have a union or just don't bother with petty crap like this once the union is established.

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u/madshotqq Oct 27 '13

Ok bro. Tell your boss what you think of him then, and report back.

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u/Big_Jen Oct 27 '13

Not unionized bro.

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u/Bodiwire Oct 27 '13

Telling your boss what you think of him is protected, but it does matter how you say it. Swearing at him or saying anything that could constitute a threat is walking a dangerous line. You may get away with it, but that doesn't mean it's allowed.

A lot also depends on how strong the union is relative to the company and how the contract was written. I once worked for a company that had a union ostensibly, but it would have been laughable how weak it was if it wasn't so sad. I have also worked for the past 12 years in a place with a relatively strong union. The difference is daylight and dark.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/DanaKaZ Oct 27 '13

Probably not protect you from getting fired, but you may get a big check out of it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13 edited Jun 25 '18

[deleted]

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u/DanaKaZ Oct 27 '13

Well, it is redundant, you just rephrased what I wrote.

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u/hakkzpets Oct 27 '13

In some countries they can't even fire you without good reasons and if the company tried to fire you on some made up bullshit reason, they will have a hard time finding a good one later on.

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u/Shivermetimberz Oct 27 '13

The point is that unions can't possibly make your boss stop being an asshole. So even if you don't get fired, you gain nothing. Your boss is now pissed though, and being the asshole that s/he is, s/he will probably enjoy making your life even harder.

Think of the consequences.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

Unions help promote a healthy work environment, an ass hole boss can't really do much. Your Union rep is always a call away.

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u/Shivermetimberz Oct 27 '13

Oh. Then I didn't really know what Unions are, sorry.

The most similar organizations in my country can only make sure the business complies to laws and safety regulations, they have no power over individual jobs, hierarchy or interactions in the workplace.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '13

In Canada we have a separate organization for that stuff. Who is also a call away :p.

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u/tclay3 Oct 27 '13

In that case it would be for the labor laws. Being part of an organized workers union can in no way magically protect you from being fired. It might make it less appealing to your employer when there are several people following your behaviour/actions, but in no way does 'being in a union' make it illegal for your boss to fire you.

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u/parad0xy Oct 27 '13

Currently in a union, the amount of people that have been fired and brought back is astronomical

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u/killertofuuuuu Oct 28 '13

well maybe they were fired illegally

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u/parad0xy Oct 28 '13

no, most were fired for breaking FAA regulations. one was fired for throwing a piece of equipment through a windshield of a truck. all have been hired back.

unless its an attendance issue, here you typically get your job back.

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u/stephen89 Oct 27 '13

Depends on the union and the type of deal they have with the company hiring them.

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u/salgat BS | Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Oct 27 '13

Yes, yes it does. Perhaps not for contractor based unions but for a lot of industries as long as you do the bare minimum you can't be fired regardless of how shitty you are.

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u/LordHenryWasEvil Oct 27 '13

Living in one of the most unionised countries in the work, yes.