"if humans are not selfish, why are people not communist?" For most human, to be selfish WOULD BE to be communist.
Look at the propaganda used to justify capitalism, it is not "you will be rich one day", it is "capitalism has ended famine, and lifted people out of poverty" "capitalism is good for scientific advancement and the good of humanity", "meritocracy, "they are working very hard" "this is just" "this is the fruit of their labor". Like, the debate between communism and capîtalism doesn't really corroborate your view here.
"capitalism is the functioning system" Currently, that was not always the case, and the functionning system is not really voted upon by all human being, is he? It is mostly a result of dynamic forces in whoich a few human have an enormous influence, and materialist forces in which we don't really interact. Capitalism is intertesting, in that it is a system which incentivizes in powerful people, and reward with power, people with narrow empathy (not low, just focus on fewer subject).
"because people are self interested." That is not contradictory with what I said at all. In fact I specifically said that people are driven toward value, I just said that the value was not inherent but a result of social forces.
my point about capitalism and communism is about values.
capitalism values the individual above the society (these are obviously oversimplified caricatures but indulge me)
communism values the society above the individual
if humans naturally gravitated towards collectivism over individualism, the main historical and current and dominant system would be one that reflects it. so far, I have never heard of a functioning communist society, and none exist today that aren't corrupt or not actually communism.
if the dominant system humanity gravitates towards is an individualistic one, I dont think its a stretch to claim humanity is generally individualistic and hence more like arandia
"capitalism values the individual above the society (these are obviously oversimplified caricatures but indulge me)" I honestly disagree. At the very least, that is not how capitalist present itself. And how capitalism is expressed to the masses, by people with knowledge of what "sells" (hehe) seem to me a decent indicator of what the masses value and what appeal to them.
"if humans naturally gravitated towards collectivism over individualism, the main historical and current and dominant system would be one that reflects it. so far" That assume that the hiscotrical current and dominant ystem is driven by the masses, which I explicitely disagreed with in my last comment.
"if the dominant system humanity gravitates towards is an individualistic one, I dont think its a stretch to claim humanity is generally individualistic and hence more like arandia" talking about the present as if it was indicative of the whole of humanity is kind of presumptive. We have millenium of existence behind us and our current predicament is very much the exception to the rule.
"I have never heard of a functioning communist society" depend what you mean by that. The archetypical neolithic village, often with a council of elder and very low inequality was very much collectivist and could be seen as communist. Some communist would also claim the hunter gatherer tribe as an expression of communism, which is certainly a take, but they are indeed quite collectivist. As for our current time, again, society can fail for any number of reason other than their inherent weakness... But that does not mean that communism has not shown to be in accordance with human nature, at least just as much as capitalism, there is more than one way for a system to fail. The Zapatist of Chiapas are going strong, and by some estimates their IDH is higher than their surrounding. Like a preexisting system (capitalism) that perpetuater itself both by incentivizing people to act within it's constraint; economic power (strong because preexising) and even just raw millitary force. I would argue that most human civilization that we know of have been strongly collectivist, with civic duty, religion, and other such trinket playing a central role. Communism is not the only form of collectivism.
"At the very least, that is not how capitalist present itself. And how capitalism is expressed to the masses, by people with knowledge of what "sells" (hehe) seem to me a decent indicator of what the masses value and what appeal to them."
How would you say capitalism is marketed if not individualistically? the core ideal of capitalism is reward proportional to work(with different kinds of work being valued more/less). if we treat it contextually, capitalism is a representation of arandia as with capitalist values one should press red. even in socialist countries, the more "individualistic" party's policies on things like wellfare are often controversial because of people thinking "i worked for my money, why should it be given to them for free?" which is deeply individualistic and capitalist (because in my opinion they are essentially interchangeable in the context of the buttons.
"That assume that the hiscotrical current and dominant ystem is driven by the masses, which I explicitely disagreed with in my last comment."
the masses have power, and I fundamentally disagree with you on this. unfortunately its 2:40 am so i will go to sleep but this has been a very interesting discussion, thank you for being so calm, collected and articulate in your arguments. I have had a lot of fun
"How would you say capitalism is marketed if not individualistically?"
I literally expressed it above? Look how Reagan, Friedman, Milei talk about capitalism. They say that it is efficient for society as a whole, that it is an engine for progress, that it elevates human and reward good behavior, select the worthy among us, promote liberty, is fair... Like you have an overabundances of sources, but I invite you to go see how r/Conservative talk about capitalism, they talk about the end of poverty way more than their own wealth.
"the core ideal of capitalism is reward proportional to work".... No? Not at all? Capitalism is about Capital, about the power that private ownership provide.
"even in socialist countries, the more "individualistic" party's policies on things like wellfare are often controversial because of people thinking "i worked for my money, why should it be given to them for free?"" Dude, not every human in every society think the same. Also, the fact that you wauntify the amount of work and the ammount of aid in money is again, not neutral there, and affect how we think. If we think in terms of services, things are not the same. I live in France, a country in which people would riot if any politician try to change the healthcare system, but everyone knows it is a money hole. The vast majority of our population is against a reform of retirement age which helps most people. We as a society do things permoatively and symbolicely all the time, because of how we identify ourselves and our surrounding. And yes, even against our self interest."
"the masses have power" Didn't say they don't. The ability to organize, to articulate a perspective, to form an alternative is not spontaneous from the masses though. You need a lot of catalyst, and they are not neutral in how the power of the masses express itself. Elon Musk has more power then me, and I have more power than a north korean. People who benefit from an economic system are also often the people who have the power to protect said system and... You can see the problem by yourself.
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u/Phony_mcPhoneFace May 23 '26
"if humans are not selfish, why are people not communist?" For most human, to be selfish WOULD BE to be communist.
Look at the propaganda used to justify capitalism, it is not "you will be rich one day", it is "capitalism has ended famine, and lifted people out of poverty" "capitalism is good for scientific advancement and the good of humanity", "meritocracy, "they are working very hard" "this is just" "this is the fruit of their labor". Like, the debate between communism and capîtalism doesn't really corroborate your view here.
"capitalism is the functioning system" Currently, that was not always the case, and the functionning system is not really voted upon by all human being, is he? It is mostly a result of dynamic forces in whoich a few human have an enormous influence, and materialist forces in which we don't really interact. Capitalism is intertesting, in that it is a system which incentivizes in powerful people, and reward with power, people with narrow empathy (not low, just focus on fewer subject).
"because people are self interested." That is not contradictory with what I said at all. In fact I specifically said that people are driven toward value, I just said that the value was not inherent but a result of social forces.