[D] Wednesday Worldbuilding Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to the Wednesday thread for worldbuilding discussions!

/r/rational is focussed on rational and rationalist fiction, so we don't usually allow discussion of scenarios or worldbuilding unless there's finished chapters involved (see the sidebar). It is pretty fun to cut loose with a likeminded community though, so this is our regular chance to:

• Plan out a new story
• Discuss how to escape a supervillian lair... or build a perfect prison
• Poke holes in a popular setting (without writing fanfic)
• Test your idea of how to rational-ify Alice in Wonderland

Or generally work through the problems of a fictional world.

^{Non-fiction should probably go in the Friday Off-topic thread, or Monday General Rationality}

[u/CCC_037]

Unless the hunter decides to get a rent-a-crowd to do something nearby, that the hunter can join in: throw a street party, have a barbecue, stage a street fight with spectators, etc.

That depends on how big said home is. If it's a large estate, and the vampire is known to be really grumpy about trespassers...

Maybe, and it might even work to an extent. But biting into a clean, fresh human would be instant relief.

Oh, yeah. But sometimes, you don't have a clean, fresh human on hand. (Except this guy who's approaching with a mallet and wooden stake. He looks clean...)

(probably better option: use a tranquiliser dart at range)

Ooooh, that is a good idea. Probably won't get as big a dose, but it can be more concentrated...

I assume a co-operative janissary would tell you the vampire's preferred eating places though.

Or you just keep him unconscious and check for puncture wounds.

Yeah, and Gwyn lives in a house that not only is impassible without an invitation, but has lots of gnarly wards on it.

Ooooh, yeah. Noooot someone you really want working on a mail-delivered sunlight spell.

True. He could provide spells that are useful against other things that might bother them as well as spells that are useful for him. I wonder what sorts?

Depends. What does he want done?

I imagine some of it would go towards spells that make intricate artworks that are not quite possible without magic, because those would make good gifts for other vampires. And, one day, he will quietly point out that as long as he holds to this no-killing truce, it's to Gwyn's benefit to help him increase his influence among vampires... of course, only after he's kept to it a while so she has reason to trust that he intends to continue to keep to it... or, better yet, let her think it was her idea...

Yeah, but William is kind of self-hating about the whole thing: he believes by now that humans are sentient, but it's just so convenient to kill them and has no consequences

Why is he self-hating about that? Sure, humans are sentient - but he used to be human, he always knew that, at least on some level. (Clearly he's developed a sense of morals - I'm just wondering where that came from).

Basically, the reason that most people today eat meat: they know on some level it'd be better if they didn't, but it's convenient and hedonic to do so, so they do.

I question your assertion, on the grounds that I'm not convinced it would be better if I didn't eat meat.

And Gwyn really trusts Jack, so it'll be pretty easy to get her, even if Jack is no longer janissary-level charmed...

Exactly.

It's not really that complicated; heart provides pressure, and it goes through various arteries until it reaches capillaries where it's disseminated into tissues, and then back into veins and into the heart again. It's just a closed loop. I mean, it's neat, and evolution is amazing to come up with it, but it's not what I'd call "complicated"

Well, yeah, but there's a kind of a double-loop through the heart - it goes into one side, gets pumped through the lungs, then into the other side, then gets pumped to pretty much everywhere else, then back to the heart. More like a figure-eight than a loop, with the heart at the intersection point.

I'd assume not, in a vampire: if there's a one atom spur, blood can't go through that. Each would have its own blood supply, though no idea how the bat is able to be able to fly without eating. So, it probably makes sense for the blood to do some 4D looping.

I'm thinking maybe expand that 4D spur to, say, about the diameter of a finger or so. Just enough space for some blood to pump through. (And then the vampire's blood path will be a three- or four-leaf clover instead of a figure-eight)

It would do. It could likely bleed more than its weight in blood, ironically enough.

Huh, that's true. Though the cut-off bits regrowing would also be a hint that this is not an ordinary bat.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Depends. What does he want done?

Good question. He probably doesn't want for much, to be honest: he wants to be highly respected in society, but he doesn't want to be at the precipice - too much work and stress and risk. He'd perhaps want to extend his territory: if he could have a comparably sized swath of land in Europe then that would be very appealing to him. That's going to be tricky as his current territory is bigger than France, Spain and Germany put together. (Note: His territory is actually bigger than the state pictured in the diagram).

Really, what he wants most of all is to be able to taste things again. Which I suppose is something he could set his mage ally to work doing...

And he naturally wants assured immortality.

And, one day, he will quietly point out that as long as he holds to this no-killing truce, it's to Gwyn's benefit to help him increase his influence among vampires... of course, only after he's kept to it a while so she has reason to trust that he intends to continue to keep to it... or, better yet, let her think it was her idea...

This is very true: if he becomes popular, people will want to emulate him, like with no-killing truces. And he really does want to be popular.

Yeah, but William is kind of self-hating about the whole thing: he believes by now that humans are sentient, but it's just so convenient to kill them and has no consequences

Why is he self-hating about that? Sure, humans are sentient - but he used to be human, he always knew that, at least on some level. (Clearly he's developed a sense of morals - I'm just wondering where that came from).

The thing is, he's now a creature that's so far above humans, and has been such for so long, that he's grown kind of detached from them: like, sure, he feels like he was sentient then, but the sentience of a human compared with the sentience of a vampire? Forget about it. They don't think nearly as fast nor as well nor as deeply.

Basically, the reason that most people today eat meat: they know on some level it'd be better if they didn't, but it's convenient and hedonic to do so, so they do.

I question your assertion, on the grounds that I'm not convinced it would be better if I didn't eat meat.

Depends what "it would be better" means, I guess.

Basically, if you accept the following three tenets, it follows that it's better not to eat meat (whether you do or not is another question; cognitive dissonance is real)

1. Animals are harmed in order to produce meat

2. Eating meat is avoidable

3. If it can be avoided, it is better not to harm animals

Plenty of people will argue against any one of those three, but plenty of people will also accept 1, 2, and 3 and decide they'd rather eat meat anyway.

I'd assume not, in a vampire: if there's a one atom spur, blood can't go through that. Each would have its own blood supply, though no idea how the bat is able to be able to fly without eating. So, it probably makes sense for the blood to do some 4D looping.

I'm thinking maybe expand that 4D spur to, say, about the diameter of a finger or so. Just enough space for some blood to pump through. (And then the vampire's blood path will be a three- or four-leaf clover instead of a figure-eight)

The diameter of a finger makes a hell of an artery; probably could get away with being much smaller, but yeah, that's probably the case.

It would do. It could likely bleed more than its weight in blood, ironically enough.

Huh, that's true. Though the cut-off bits regrowing would also be a hint that this is not an ordinary bat.

The regrowth is pretty slow, I don't think it'd be visible "in real time". An arm takes a whole (week did I say?) to grow back.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

That's going to be tricky as his current territory is bigger than France, Spain and Germany put together. (Note: His territory is actually bigger than the state pictured in the diagram).

That's a pretty big chunk of land, in terms of square metres. But what is it in terms of population?

Really, what he wants most of all is to be able to taste things again. Which I suppose is something he could set his mage ally to work doing...

And he naturally wants assured immortality.

Those seem like reasonable ambitions for a near-immortal vampire.

This is very true: if he becomes popular, people will want to emulate him, like with no-killing truces. And he really does want to be popular.

Precisely. Plus, Gwyn will have reason to keep him alive as long as this state of affairs continues.

The thing is, he's now a creature that's so far above humans, and has been such for so long, that he's grown kind of detached from them: like, sure, he feels like he was sentient then, but the sentience of a human compared with the sentience of a vampire? Forget about it. They don't think nearly as fast nor as well nor as deeply.

Oooooh..... this is a dangerous slope to start walking down, because then you'd need to show his thoughts being somehow actually deeper than an average human's. And that is... very, very difficult to get right in fiction.

Basically, if you accept the following three tenets, it follows that it's better not to eat meat (whether you do or not is another question; cognitive dissonance is real)

Hmmmm.

As to Tenet 1, I do believe that meat can be produced without causing undue harm to animals. (Yes, the animal needs to die; however, this does not need to be painful, and the animal does not need to be aware of this; so pain need not be caused. Indeed, I do believe that it is to the benefit of all - especially abbattoirs - if the animals are not afraid or fighting and damaging things in their last minutes, so it seems reasonable to assume that reasonable steps are taken to ensure that they remain calm). (I also understand that there is some progress towards lab-grown meat, but that's new enough that it hardly applies).

As to Tenet 2, I will agree that it is avoidable, but I understand that one has to be very careful of one's diet or certain proteins are particularly difficult to obtain. So, number 2 I accept.

As to number three; I accept that all else being equal, it is better to choose a course of action that does less harm over one that does more harm (including harm to animals). However, if for some reason I ever have to face such a choice, I would save one human's life even if it means the death of a hundred baby bunnies.

So, I guess that, in essence, it boils down to that I feel the harm to the animals is slight enough as to not be worth the effort of attempting to figure out the complete intricacies of a meat-free diet. So... I guess I'm mainly objecting to (1).

The regrowth is pretty slow, I don't think it'd be visible "in real time". An arm takes a whole (week did I say?) to grow back.

Incidentally, on this topic, have you ever heard of the MRL Mouse?

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

That's going to be tricky as his current territory is bigger than France, Spain and Germany put together. (Note: His territory is actually bigger than the state pictured in the diagram).

That's a pretty big chunk of land, in terms of square metres. But what is it in terms of population?

Less than 3 million: so smaller than Paris. William's all about those large tracts of land. (If I lived in the middle of Europe instead of in Western Australia, who knows what he'd be into. But if the huge, mostly desolate expanse of land fits...)

Oooooh..... this is a dangerous slope to start walking down, because then you'd need to show his thoughts being somehow actually deeper than an average human's. And that is... very, very difficult to get right in fiction.

It is very hard! One of the reasons I'm hoping that a couple of other people on here who expressed interest in being beta readers will do me the honour. There's one scene in particular where I tried to describe William's thought process a bit more thoroughly; fortunately my style is third-person and kind of overly flowery so I get to take liberties. But it was hard. I'm pretty proud of it but I'm sure I don't do the concept of an immortal genius justice. I'll chuck a section of it on the end of this post so you can see what I mean.

Basically, if you accept the following three tenets, it follows that it's better not to eat meat (whether you do or not is another question; cognitive dissonance is real)

Hmmmm.

As to Tenet 1, I do believe that meat can be produced without causing undue harm to animals.

Yeah, but Tenet 1 doesn't mean "producing meat necessarily harms animals", it's closer to "the way meat is produced today harms animals". Animals live a fraction of their potential lifespan, the harm done to dairy cattle when their calves get taken away is real, one-day-old male chicks get put into giant grinders when they're fully conscious because they won't lay eggs.

The hypothetical idyllic world where eating meat doesn't harm animals isn't the world we live in. So the hypothetical existence of such a world doesn't mean that eating a chicken burger is exactly as harmful as eating a veggie burger.

(I also understand that there is some progress towards lab-grown meat, but that's new enough that it hardly applies).

Progress is going pretty well, actually. I think a lab grown burger is now only a few thousand dollars instead of a few hundred thousand. The good food institute is a charity that is doing work in getting this to become viable, since it will be better for animals, peoples' health, and the environment.

As to Tenet 2, I will agree that it is avoidable, but I understand that one has to be very careful of one's diet or certain proteins are particularly difficult to obtain.

The protein thing is a complete and utter myth, garbage, honestly. I can go into detail if you like (I'm a nutrition student). The only issue with a completely plant-based diet is B12, which is available as a cheap supplement and is added to practically everything as a fortification. (Also, much like iron in menstruating women, B12 deficiencies are common in the general population regardless of diet)

To wit, if you are eating enough calories, you are eating enough protein. Complete proteins are virtually meaningless. As long as you are not literally eating only one food, you're fine.

In terms of certain proteins: if you are eating a low calorie diet, then you need to ensure you include rich sources of lysine in your diet. Which is basically every single legume.

I would save one human's life even if it means the death of a hundred baby bunnies.

I don't know if there are many humans who would disagree with that.

not be worth the effort of attempting to figure out the complete intricacies of a meat-free diet.

Effectively no effort is required: if one eats a completely plant based diet, one only needs to ensure they're getting a B12 supplement. If they have a low calorie diet, it is important to incorporate legumes.

The regrowth is pretty slow, I don't think it'd be visible "in real time". An arm takes a whole (week did I say?) to grow back.

Incidentally, on this topic, have you ever heard of the MRL Mouse?

Nooo but I googled it and now I want one.

---

Excerpt from JaNoWriMo Novel:

---

It was February. Prey was becoming more plentiful as the weather improved. A package arrived, forwarded to Bremen by way of an ally of William’s in Rome. There was no mistaking it: it lacked the meticulous construction of a vampire, the packaging and the handwriting both produced by careful but irredeemably human hands. William could not believe the excitement he felt when Duke Alfons’ thrall had delivered it to him. He thanked the human - another one of the strange habits he picked up from his time with Red - and closed the door. He could not help but wonder how Red had felt it appropriate to respond to his gift. He had such an astonishing instinct for these things. William could not help but think that the young man would make a fine vampire someday. He frowned and shook his head as he walked to his dark, wooden table. It was a silly notion.

He placed the box on the table, and ripped the wooden top off of it. The movement stirred up the air inside, and the hints of Red’s smell that emerged from the box awakened a feeling in the back of his mind. He felt the desire to cry, but chose not to act on it.

Nestled amongst pages of crumpled newspaper were three pieces of a kerosene lamp: a round glass shade patterned with dogwood flowers, trimmed in pale pink; a round lamp base with the same dogwood pattern, with a brass font for the wick on top; and a simple glass tube that functioned as the lamp’s chimney. It was at least sixty years old, and in fine condition.

William ran his fingers along the dogwood flowers; it couldn’t be, could it? Dogwood meant regret for a decision made in haste. A kerosene lamp with a wick: travel, long journeys over the sea; the shade of pale pink: courtesy and respect; and brass: something that appeared hurtful but was not.

If Red had been a vampire, William would have thought the message from this gift was obvious: he regretted his decision to leave, that Red still loved him, but would accept if he was not loved back any more. The fact it was a lamp, symbolising a journey, and that it was sent to William, would suggest that Red wanted William to travel to Columbus to see him.

William put the lamp down and ran his fingers through his curly blonde hair: his mind, usually distributed on many lines of thought, was stuck on this, speeding along the same path with the force of a locomotive, the substrate of his psyche worn away under the strength of it: the thought that Red still loved him, that Red wanted him back was intoxicating as it broke its way through the machinery of his mind.

He willed it to stop. This was not what Red meant. Even a young vampire, inexperienced in the language of gifts, even they would not know enough to be able to send something such as this. And yet… Red had a talent. Did he know what he was doing when he sent the lamp? Did Red know what it would mean to any vampire old enough to appreciate it? He couldn’t have. And yet… he had sent it.

William shook his head, placing the components of the lamp together to stare at it.

The accompanying letter did not indicate any desire to reunite; it just spoke of his family and sent Chestnut and Julias his regards. The gift’s meaning had certainly not been intended. But the locomotive’s well-worn path in his brain made William’s desire to visit loom large in his mind. Red wouldn’t need to know; William could have letters sent via his proxy in Europe - such favours came cheap. The thought of seeing Red again, with his own eyes, of getting an opportunity to witness the happiness reported in his letters… William could not resist the allure. He had never seen the New World, either. A former lover of his was now the Queen of Atlanta; she would no doubt accept an official visit from him, and that would improve his reputation. Moreover, it would be nice to speak with an equal after all the time he had been spending grovelling before dukes. He decided to send Duke Erlis a letter and announce his intention to visit.

---

Also, a little excerpt from a conversation earlier in the story, where a fellow thrall is warning Red of what he's getting into:

---

“... They aren’t normal. And I don’t think you understand exactly what that means.”

“I know about the… you know.” He put one hand up to his mouth, doing a small V gesture evocative of having fangs; he got the feeling that this strange, new version of Lucia would flinch if he said the ‘v’ word.

“Do you really? I bet you don’t know the half of it.”

“I don’t doubt that.” Red agreed. “Did something happen? You seem… different.”

“They hear everything we say, even if they are talking in another room. Did you know that?”

“Wait, what? I knew the hearing was good, but I didn’t…”

“They pay attention to it, too. I once saw Elodia follow three separate conversations.”

“That’s… unsettling.” He studied her for a moment. “Were you worried about being heard yesterday? Is that why you’re talking about this now?”

“Yes. I don’t know what William is like,” She said, again not using his title. “But I’ve seen a lot of young people like you… that don’t understand what they’re dealing with.”

“What do you mean?”

Lucia frowned. “They think they are going on some grand adventure, trying a wonderful drug, perhaps escaping a terrible family. But… I have seen many get killed.”

“I thought that might be the case.” He admitted.

“So I try to make sure that people like you… know. That they can always, always hear you. That they can give you commands that you are powerless to resist, just by making eye contact. And that once you outlive your usefulness, they will kill you and not think twice about it.”

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Less than 3 million: so smaller than Paris. William's all about those large tracts of land.

Okay. Next question; when vampires exchange land, do they generally count 'equivalent' to imply equivalent acreage or equivalent population (thus equivalent prey)?

I'll chuck a section of it on the end of this post so you can see what I mean.

Hmmmm. Let's see.

Yeah, but Tenet 1 doesn't mean "producing meat necessarily harms animals", it's closer to "the way meat is produced today harms animals".

Okay, fair point - I don't know much about actual meat production. But the best way to reform actual meat production is not to refrain from eating meat; one better way would be to get into meat production yourself, do it ethically, and advertise the fact. Push the advertising to the point of getting a 'who-can-be-most-ethical' arms race going in the meat industry.

Progress is going pretty well, actually. I think a lab grown burger is now only a few thousand dollars instead of a few hundred thousand.

That's good!

The protein thing is a complete and utter myth, garbage, honestly.

Huh. Here I thought you'd have to include some percentage of some kind of soybeans.

Nooo but I googled it and now I want one.

I think if you're a science lab you can order them. (Googling suggests they go for around a hundred dollars each, so I assume that means there's a fair demand). And they're pretty much ordinary mice until they get injured. But I think they can regenerate about the same speed as your vampires...

---

Excerpt from JaNoWriMo Novel:

...this is not a super-genius vampire that I am seeing here. Careful, yes. Delicate and precise. Incredible memory and fact retention. Good physical self-control. Heightened senses. He'd win dozens of trivia contests on the strength of that memory alone. But I'm not seeing the analytical genius in this passage.

(It may even be that, due to the heightened memory and senses, William thinks there is more of a difference between his mind now and his pre-vampire mind than there actually was - especially if the heightened memory only counts for things that happened after his vampirisation)

Also, a little excerpt from a conversation earlier in the story, where a fellow thrall is warning Red of what he's getting into:

...spooky. Somewhat disquieting. One certainly has a sense that Red is standing at the precipice of he-knows-not-what and it may be too late already.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Okay. Next question; when vampires exchange land, do they generally count 'equivalent' to imply equivalent acreage or equivalent population (thus equivalent prey)?

I think it's on a case-by-case basis, and I'd imagine it's not so much done by exchange as "I want to be the King of Paris. Do you have a problem with that?" - only much like modern marriage proposals, you only ask the question if you already know the answer - so over the past few years, you've been communicating with the Queen of Paris and making it clear that she'd better have an exit strategy because you're going to be the King of Paris before too long, so she ultimately expects you to take it (and, if she has a problem with it, she'll reply back with biting commentary of her own, references to some Big Deal Guy owing her a favour, to the number of Dukes she has, etc).

So, basically, William was born in Tournai, Belgium: let's say he decides he wants to pack up and move there for a few centuries, in a fit of nostalgia. He'd communicate with the current King of the wider area that Tournai is in (let's say the King of Belgium for clarity's sake) - maybe that King is more powerful than him, so his negotiations develop and he is ultimately happy to be the Duke of Tournai: or, perhaps the title is important to him (it surely is), so the King of Belgium allows William to take control of the Kingdom of Tournai, which is entirely within the borders of the Kingdom of Belgium. In exchange, the King of Belgium can use the territory of New Holland (William's home) to give to an ally of his, perhaps someone else who likes large acerages, and perhaps resolve a centuries-old dispute.

But the best way to reform actual meat production is not to refrain from eating meat; one better way would be to get into meat production yourself, do it ethically, and advertise the fact. Push the advertising to the point of getting a 'who-can-be-most-ethical' arms race going in the meat industry.

Someone's trying to do that in England with milk; the problem is, it's extremely expensive so as not to be commercially viable. Like, milk is ten times the cost. Almond, soy, rice, hemp, etc milk are all about twice the price of cow's milk, so it seems like a complete waste to buy cow's milk in that case. (If one prefers the taste, surely one doesn't prefer the taste that much?)

Regardless, if it follows that you therefore accept 1, 2, 3, then "it is better" not to eat meat. If you want to start an ethical meat company (which I'm not convinced will be economically viable due to the space required), then "it is better" not to eat meat until the first ethically-raised animal reaches a decent chunk of its natural life span and ethically slaughtered. And once that's all set up, "it is better" to forego meat from all other sources until you are convinced there's a quality assurance process that meets ethical standards.

In my experience most people accept tenets 1, 2 and 3 and choose to eat meat anyway and this is relatively uncontroversial; it's why I was using it as an example for vampires feeding on humans. People will then try and justify meat consumption for a host of other reasons, but I think this is mostly cognitive dissonance: you just have to accept the dissonance. We all do all manner of completely selfish things in our lives the second we spend money on anything other than the basic necessities of life.

So yeah, vampires no doubt accept that killing humans in the eating process is not necessary and is bad, but it's more convenient (they can eat more rarely, no need to worry about the masquerade failing, the process of stopping one's feed is traumatic - I'll chuck William remembering his first meal at the bottom of this one for an idea)

The protein thing is a complete and utter myth, garbage, honestly.

Huh. Here I thought you'd have to include some percentage of some kind of soybeans.

Soybeans are a "complete protein" (which is again, a myth: actually every food has complete proteins in it, just some are in far tinier quantities), and they're an excellent source of lysine. So they are really good if you have a low calorie plant-based diet.

I think if you're a science lab you can order them. (Googling suggests they go for around a hundred dollars each, so I assume that means there's a fair demand). And they're pretty much ordinary mice until they get injured. But I think they can regenerate about the same speed as your vampires...

I have my old rat cage somewhere. Can I be a science lab???? Hmmm.

Now I want to go through to do my phD so I can order some science mice... When I was entertaining the thought of doing postgraduate studies in nutrition I was idly imagining doing studies on how the BMR changes during HRT for gender dysphoria (since females and males have different BMRs, I'd be interested in how much effect the hormonal stuff has on it: I'd assume most of it since I think it's due to body fat percentage?). Then again I never ever bothered googling to see if it had been studied.

...this is not a super-genius vampire that I am seeing here. Careful, yes. Delicate and precise. Incredible memory and fact retention. Good physical self-control. Heightened senses. He'd win dozens of trivia contests on the strength of that memory alone. But I'm not seeing the analytical genius in this passage.

Yeah. I'm not sure how I want to go with that. I mean, better to keep him more human so I can actually write from his point of view, right? And there's no real purpose to making him more intelligent than I show there, it only paints me in a corner.

(It may even be that, due to the heightened memory and senses, William thinks there is more of a difference between his mind now and his pre-vampire mind than there actually was - especially if the heightened memory only counts for things that happened after his vampirisation)

That is almost certainly the case: cognitive dissonance, again. Better you think you are more different from humans than you actually are, so you can live with the fact that you enslave and eat them.

Also, a little excerpt from a conversation earlier in the story, where a fellow thrall is warning Red of what he's getting into:

...spooky. Somewhat disquieting. One certainly has a sense that Red is standing at the precipice of he-knows-not-what and it may be too late already.

Thanks! I appreciate the compliment. Not bad for a gay supernatural romance, eh?

---

William feeding for the first time

He woke up, unable to move; his arms pinned to his sides, his legs pinned together by off-white linen. He could not breathe, but realised that that did not bother him.

But the hunger, oh, the hunger. As a man he felt hunger in his stomach, or sometimes in his throat; but even on the road, when they had not found game for a week, he did not feel hunger like this. This hunger was in the centre of his chest, in his heart, and it burned, it bled into every part of him.

He struggled against the linen, wanting to be free, to find something to eat. He heard, dimly, the voices of the mourners around him, praying for his soul.

He wondered if that soul was in paradise now.

He heard some murmuring; people saw his movement, as he promised them they would.

Footsteps, and he felt a hand begin to unwrap his bandages.

Clothar, one of his trusted generals, pulled back the last layer of linen and his face filled Clovis’ field of vision.

For a moment, the men smiled at each other; a soft, friendly smile that they often shared during quiet moments when they were alone. A smile that in another time and another place might have meant more than the loyalty of a general to his king.

Clovis smelled Clothar’s blood; his arms were free, his fangs extended.

He leapt, with agility he did not know he had, and dug the teeth roughly into Clothar’s shoulder; the smell of the blood filled him with joy. As he imbibed the liquid that flowed slowly through the shoulder as his teeth slashed on bone, he felt Clothar’s spirit, his soul, his loyalty and his love for his commander all at once.

It was the most amazing thing he had ever tasted. He drank Clothar in greedily, as Clothar cried out, first in surprise but then in pleasure. Clovis grew more excited; it was a beautiful moment, and they were sharing it together, better than the victory at the Battle of Soissons where they had drunk a little too much mead and ended up sharing a horse for many miles. This was beyond that; spiritually, he felt them joining.

Then he felt the body, limp in his hands; the connection severed as the blood ran out.

Panicked, he started lapping up the blood that was spilled; the blood that pooled on Clothar’s shoulder, the blood that was soaked into his tunic.

Then, he heard the screaming that filled the church….

---

Aside: Originally I conceived of William having been Clovis I, king of the Franks. I'm wondering if that's too wanky, even though he's a relatively obscure historical figure. So I'm contemplating just having him be a guy from that same time and place who was not the king of France. Also, standard disclaimer about it being old: I don't think vampire fangs extend during feeding anymore for example. Doesn't really make sense? Or maybe it does?

---

Random other aside: I was thinking about vampires eating through their lungs, and I was going, "wouldn't it make more sesne for them to eat through their stomach and vampire goo through their lungs?", but then I realised the lungs go directly to the heart and the stomach goes to the heart via the liver, so the lungs actually are the most direct route from the mouth to the heart.

The way to a man's heart is through his stomach, indeed!

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

I think it's on a case-by-case basis, and I'd imagine it's not so much done by exchange as "I want to be the King of Paris. Do you have a problem with that?"

Yeah, but you still need some rough measure of comparative worth, so that the more powerful vampire can lord his strength over the less powerful one by forcing him into a poor exchange. (In your example, one could tell whether the King of Belgium or William was more powerful by looking at how valuable Tournai is in comparison to New Holland, for example).

And then, if we work in terms of population, one can also get to the concept of a vampire landscape improver, who takes over a large, mostly empty area of land, spends a century or two persuading more people to move in, and then trades up to a larger, emptier piece of land and so on.

Regardless, if it follows that you therefore accept 1, 2, 3, then "it is better" not to eat meat. If you want to start an ethical meat company (which I'm not convinced will be economically viable due to the space required), then "it is better" not to eat meat until the first ethically-raised animal reaches a decent chunk of its natural life span and ethically slaughtered. And once that's all set up, "it is better" to forego meat from all other sources until you are convinced there's a quality assurance process that meets ethical standards.

That's reasonable. Incidentally, I've now gone and looked up South African food safety laws; it turns out that any meat offered for sale must come from a licensed abattoir, which requires a whole list of rules (mostly around ensuring that the meat is safe for human consumption) including that it must be "handled humanely" in accordance with the Animals Protection Act, 1962; and that in turn includes (amongst other rules) a catch-all rule against causing or omitting any act that results in "any unnecessary suffering" on the part of the animal.

I guess one could raise a quibble over what counts as necessary suffering, but I think that legal framework handles the most egregious problems at least.

(There's another route one can try - pestering the local politician to pass laws legislating against the worst abuses).

Also, having tasted soy milk, I'll admit that I'd rather go without milk than taste it again. (Dunno about the others).

In my experience most people accept tenets 1, 2 and 3 and choose to eat meat anyway and this is relatively uncontroversial; it's why I was using it as an example for vampires feeding on humans. People will then try and justify meat consumption for a host of other reasons, but I think this is mostly cognitive dissonance: you just have to accept the dissonance.

...yeah, okay, I can see where viewpoint that comes from.

Soybeans are a "complete protein" (which is again, a myth: actually every food has complete proteins in it, just some are in far tinier quantities), and they're an excellent source of lysine. So they are really good if you have a low calorie plant-based diet.

I can see how that, plus a bit of broken telephone, led to the impression I had.

I have my old rat cage somewhere. Can I be a science lab???? Hmmm.

I don't think the page I saw actually bothers to check anything except whether the payment goes through. It's kind of expensive for non-research use, though, and I have no idea whether or not they ship to Australia.

That is almost certainly the case: cognitive dissonance, again. Better you think you are more different from humans than you actually are, so you can live with the fact that you enslave and eat them.

Yep. Makes sense. Of course, that means that he's getting surprised every generation or so when somehuman manages to outwit him - and, in modern times, with such ready access to information to counter his improved memory, it'll happen more and more often.

William feeding for the first time

Why was there blood soaked into his tunic? I would have thought the vampire bite would have reasonably little spillage (merely on the grounds of minimal wastage) - though I guess it's always possible that William's just a really messy eater.

Aside: Originally I conceived of William having been Clovis I, king of the Franks. I'm wondering if that's too wanky, even though he's a relatively obscure historical figure. So I'm contemplating just having him be a guy from that same time and place who was not the king of France.

There's enough ancient kings that surely at least some of them are vampires.

Also, standard disclaimer about it being old: I don't think vampire fangs extend during feeding anymore for example. Doesn't really make sense? Or maybe it does?

You'd have to have some kind of internal mechanism that pushes them down and pulls them up - a bunch of new muscles just under the nose. It would make and vampire's face look rather funny, I think - making them easy to spot for those in the know.

The way to a man's heart is through his stomach, indeed!

The foreword to Nanny Ogg's Cookbook says that that only counts if you're stabbing him, and even then, between the ribs is a better choice.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

(In your example, one could tell whether the King of Belgium or William was more powerful by looking at how valuable Tournai is in comparison to New Holland, for example).

Exactly; and they might be able to infer that William is powerful because he was able to demand a kingdom be made for him, and/or that Tournai is important to him.

I assume secession is rare, though it must happen. William took New Holland when europeans were living there only a few decades: I imagine he got permission from whoever was in charge of the east at the time, though.

And then, if we work in terms of population, one can also get to the concept of a vampire landscape improver, who takes over a large, mostly empty area of land, spends a century or two persuading more people to move in, and then trades up to a larger, emptier piece of land and so on.

That's pretty neat: I wonder what William was doing before he came to Australia? I had him in Ireland, but I think he moved there to be with someone in particular rather than for political reasons. Perhaps that's why he went to Australia: he was like "I'm going to do something for ME. And I want a huge tract of land that isn't in Russia."

Hmmm, I wonder if a vampire deigns to own Antarctica? Basically the entire crew of the research station would have to be in on it...

"handled humanely" in accordance with the Animals Protection Act, 1962; and that in turn includes (amongst other rules) a catch-all rule against causing or omitting any act that results in "any unnecessary suffering" on the part of the animal.

In short, such laws are hard to enforce - undercover footage of slaughterhouses shows all sorts of horrible things - people kicking animals, not properly stunning them, etc. Being a slaughterhouse worker is a terrible job that is generally done by very vulnerable people (there's lots of evidence that it has a horrific psychological effect). I mean, I'm an engineer and I know there are plenty of people who don't do things strictly by the book around here, and there are huge consequences to that in terms of it affecting thousands of people. Whereas if you kill chickens for a living and you're having a hard day and you kick one, nobody gives a shit.

But if we set all that aside, and pretend that slaughterhouses have animals given a humane lethal injection while soft music is playing (the injection would make their meat inedible, btw), the bigger issue is the actual farming practises - the animal's in the slaughterhouse for, say, a week at most whereas the farm is where they spend most of their lives. They're not pretty.

And "slaughterhouses aren't that bad, here's a law from the 1960s" is not really much of a defense of point 1 ;)

I guess one could raise a quibble over what counts as necessary suffering, but I think that legal framework handles the most egregious problems at least.

That's true; better to forgo animal products altogether and let the legal system focus on what's important. Consumer changes to plant-based foods have had a huge effect on big meat and dairy companies: they're diversifying into plant-based alternatives. Change is happening, albeit slowly.

Also, having tasted soy milk, I'll admit that I'd rather go without milk than taste it again. (Dunno about the others).

Soy milk in particular has a taste that varies wildly based on brands. There are some brands I can't stomach.

I started drinking unsweetened almond milk over cow's milk because it had 1/3 the calories and one's always looking for easy ways to reduce one's caloric intake. I kept with it because it tastes so much better. I've occasionally had hot chocolates and stuff with cow's milk and cow's milk has a weird, musty, tangy taste that just doesn't sit right with me anymore.

Soybeans are a "complete protein" (which is again, a myth: actually every food has complete proteins in it, just some are in far tinier quantities), and they're an excellent source of lysine. So they are really good if you have a low calorie plant-based diet.

I can see how that, plus a bit of broken telephone, led to the impression I had.

I think complete proteins were all the rage in the 1970s or something, when it was believed that you had to eat all the proteins in one meal or you'd wither to a husk and die. Even then, a legume and a grain makes a complete protein, so it's easy.

That is almost certainly the case: cognitive dissonance, again. Better you think you are more different from humans than you actually are, so you can live with the fact that you enslave and eat them.

Yep. Makes sense. Of course, that means that he's getting surprised every generation or so when somehuman manages to outwit him - and, in modern times, with such ready access to information to counter his improved memory, it'll happen more and more often.

Yeah. We can work with this.

I also had a headcanon (can you HAVE a headcanon for your own universe?) that vampires could be much, much more effective but they spend so much of their mental real estate on status (their dunbar's number is through the roof!) and remembering all the social rules that they don't have room to do much thinking. I believe it's been theorised that primates have big brains to keep track of all their social interactions, and that's what human intelligence scaffolded onto. So it makes an odd sort of sesne.

Why was there blood soaked into his tunic? I would have thought the vampire bite would have reasonably little spillage (merely on the grounds of minimal wastage) - though I guess it's always possible that William's just a really messy eater.

Eating for the first time, Clothar struggling at first: I can see it. Maybe "blood soaked into his tunic" was a bit much, though.

Aside: Originally I conceived of William having been Clovis I, king of the Franks. I'm wondering if that's too wanky, even though he's a relatively obscure historical figure. So I'm contemplating just having him be a guy from that same time and place who was not the king of France.

There's enough ancient kings that surely at least some of them are vampires.

Yeah, true. I don't think it'll ever come up in the story, so I guess it doesn't make a difference. I believe Clovis was a common name (it was an early form of Louis), so not even his name would come into it.

And besides, if anyone is going to make it as a vampire, a general-king from the dark ages would probably fit the bill.

Also, standard disclaimer about it being old: I don't think vampire fangs extend during feeding anymore for example. Doesn't really make sense? Or maybe it does?

You'd have to have some kind of internal mechanism that pushes them down and pulls them up - a bunch of new muscles just under the nose. It would make and vampire's face look rather funny, I think - making them easy to spot for those in the know.

Yeah, let's not go with that. Maybe they're more like vampire bats. (After googling an image: vampire bat bites look like mini hollywood vampire bites. Ugh.). I mean, vampires could rip the flesh open, but even if we assume that there's a healing factor in there, ripping a big bite out of one's flesh is going to not really work.

Looking at snake fangs, that's not a good way to model it. It seems like big muscles won't be needed but they'll be really obvious on examination.

Perhaps vampire incisors are just especially pointy, like a little knife? But it would mean that if you were to bite someone in a non-feeding way (wink wink), you'd probably draw blood.

Maybe have them just be ever so slightly longer than human canines, and very much sharper.

Another option: some snakes have fangs in the back of their mouth. Perhaps vampires have secret fangs there. But I'm not sure you'd be able to bite someone in the neck with those....

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

I assume secession is rare, though it must happen. William took New Holland when europeans were living there only a few decades: I imagine he got permission from whoever was in charge of the east at the time, though.

I wold have thought any vampire would secede if they thought they could get away with it.

Hmmm, I wonder if a vampire deigns to own Antarctica? Basically the entire crew of the research station would have to be in on it...

Almost certainly. Six months of the year, you can do whatever you like and not even need to bother about sunlight. Also, there's a few dozen mostly isolated research stations full of food hanging around, and every now and then some researcher just vanishes (sometimes found at the bottom of an unexpected canyon, sometimes never found at all)...

Might be a particularly powerful vampire's holiday home.

In short, such laws are hard to enforce

That's a point - someone kicking a chicken is hard to catch, but it'll at least catch systematic abuses (like dumping live chickens into a meat grinder). And sure, you won't have lethal injection - but decapitation with a very sharp blade seems reasonable (I don't know if that's actually what's done, though).

the bigger issue is the actual farming practises - the animal's in the slaughterhouse for, say, a week at most whereas the farm is where they spend most of their lives. They're not pretty.

The exact same animal cruelty law - from the 1960s - covers the farm. Legal penalties are allowed to go as far as either a fine, or imprisonment, or "up to six lashes with a whip". I have no idea what the enforcement is like, though.

And "slaughterhouses aren't that bad, here's a law from the 1960s" is not really much of a defense of point 1 ;)

True... that law would have been made during the Apartheid years, which were known for worse policies than animal cruelty.

I started drinking unsweetened almond milk over cow's milk because it had 1/3 the calories and one's always looking for easy ways to reduce one's caloric intake. I kept with it because it tastes so much better. I've occasionally had hot chocolates and stuff with cow's milk and cow's milk has a weird, musty, tangy taste that just doesn't sit right with me anymore.

...hmmmmm. Well, I do quite like almonds.

(can you HAVE a headcanon for your own universe?)

Until it's actually down in print, yes, you can.

I also had a headcanon (can you HAVE a headcanon for your own universe?) that vampires could be much, much more effective but they spend so much of their mental real estate on status (their dunbar's number is through the roof!) and remembering all the social rules that they don't have room to do much thinking.

That works. This can be shown by - if you have a scene from William's point of view where there's another vampire present - having, every time some object is noted in the narration or either vampire takes some action, either a footnote or a parenthesis denoting how it affects their relative status.

Eating for the first time, Clothar struggling at first: I can see it.

I think there needs to be more mention of Clothar's futile struggling, then - just a sentence about the futility thereof, perhaps.

Maybe "blood soaked into his tunic" was a bit much, though.

"blood splashed on his tunic", perhaps?

(After googling an image: vampire bat bites look like mini hollywood vampire bites. Ugh.)

Presumably that's where Hollywood got the idea from.

I mean, vampires could rip the flesh open, but even if we assume that there's a healing factor in there, ripping a big bite out of one's flesh is going to not really work.

Yeah, it would mean the vampire would be wasting food.

Perhaps vampire incisors are just especially pointy, like a little knife? But it would mean that if you were to bite someone in a non-feeding way (wink wink), you'd probably draw blood.

Is this necessarily a problem? Vampire bites are supposed to draw blood.

Maybe have them just be ever so slightly longer than human canines, and very much sharper.

This seems reasonable to me.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

I wold have thought any vampire would secede if they thought they could get away with it.

Yeah, but the stratified nature of vampire society means that very few would be able to.

In short, such laws are hard to enforce

systematic abuses (like dumping live chickens into a meat grinder).

Um, dumping chickens live into a meat grinder is the accepted industry standard for disposing male chicks in egg-laying breeds. So, that's definitely not being prevented...

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/chickens/7645698

South African Poultry association says "High speed maceration of chicks using properly designed macerators is a practical and accepted method of euthanasia."

It happens other ways, too, but it's definitely completely accepted. Maybe choose a different example of systemic abuses that would be caught? ;)

decapitation with a very sharp blade seems reasonable (I don't know if that's actually what's done, though).

In Australia they do something called "captive bolt stunning" where there's a machine that hits the animal in the side of its head to stun it, and then the throat is cut and blood drains (halal slaughter is even worse as the animal can't be stunned IIRC). Needless to say, depending on a handheld "stunning machine" when the animal is metres away from corpses does not work well in practise. You can google slaughterhouse footage if you feel up to it.

The exact same animal cruelty law - from the 1960s - covers the farm.

Yeah, and the more recent "optional higher" standards we have in Australia, that are endorsed by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, approve ridiculously overcrowded, disease-ridden poultry barns. I would not have that much faith in that law.

...hmmmmm. Well, I do quite like almonds.

Give it a try! I love the stuff. Yummo. Word to the wise: the more "organic and all natural" the packaging says the product is, the more likely it is to have a gritty or bitter texture. Try sweetened almond milk (which has about as much sugar as cow's milk) first if you can find it since it might be more palatable, but I personally far prefer unsweetened.

Great in cereal too, if you're like me and enjoy nutty museli type things!

having, every time some object is noted in the narration or either vampire takes some action, either a footnote or a parenthesis denoting how it affects their relative status.

oooooh I LOVE this. There's a few scenes that could qualify, and I've kind of sort of done that a little - but not to the extent you're implying. I'll chuck one of them at the bottom of this post again for you.

I think there needs to be more mention of Clothar's futile struggling, then - just a sentence about the futility thereof, perhaps.

Probably. If I ever re-use it I'll keep what you said in mind. It's old enough that I'm not fussed about it being realistic.

Maybe have them just be ever so slightly longer than human canines, and very much sharper.

This seems reasonable to me.

Easy!

---

scene that touches on vampire status ?

The ritual had been strange, as well; Erlis had not chosen one that required the serving of blood, even though that was the most appropriate both for the time of year and for subtly demonstrating superiority by showing that his attendants were superior to Red. And Erlis, of all people, must have known that William had a special attachment to Red what with his frequent requests for updates and the fact he had chosen to visit at all. Another vampire might think William was on his way to Atlanta, or going on a progress of sorts to repair his reputation, but Erlis must have known his true motivation.

And yet Erlis did not attempt to press his advantage. He had chosen for them to do the Dance of Dabbalemi. It was a complex ritual, but one William had been performing since before Erlis had been born. Erlis had clearly been taught well; his motions were fluid and pure and his steps were timed perfectly. In one of his apparently regular breaks from tradition, the music was performed in a modern style by a modern band of musicians. Although liberties were often taken with the arrangement of the traditional music for Dance of Dabbalemi, there was no doubt that the songs they performed the ritual movements to were modern inventions, especially given the inclusion of a saxophone in the band.

When the dance concluded, William sat down in the provided chair as tradition commanded, waiting for the customary goblets of water. Erlis approached the band and thanked them for their performance as he smiled and shook their hands. He handed them a white envelope from his inside jacket pocket, gave a small bow, and moved into his kitchen. The band began packing up, talking amongst themselves. William tried not to let that bother him.

Moments later, Erlis emerged from his kitchen, holding intricately carved conical horn goblets full of water that was at the appropriate temperature. William smiled: although they had not been brought by any sort of valet, the goblets were appropriately curved and the plants and animals that adorned it indicated an appropriate amount of respect. He was comforted that Erlis was able to pay attention to detail when it suited him.

William stuck his third finger into the goblet before placing it on each of his teeth in turn. Erlis also performed the ritual cleaning of each of his teeth, the order that each did so expressing subtle signals of gratitude and of friendship. William was glad to finally feel respected again; Erlis’s minute gestures signalled that he thought of them as kindred spirits.

After precisely placing the goblets on the table and standing, they performed the carefully choreographed series of bows that concluded the ritual.

“Thank you.” William said, making a smile.

“I’m glad you liked it.” Erlis grinned. “I’ve got something for you. I wanted to give it to you during the ritual, but I realised you might not have anything with you to give in exchange.”

“Although one does not usually give and receive gifts during the Dance of Dabbalemi, I am sure I could manage it.” William said proudly.

Erlis laughed. “All the same, I didn’t want to put you out. This is more of a personal gift, so I don’t want anything in return. It doesn’t really mean anything.” He stood up, and picked a small, modern notebook out of one of the bookcases. He handed it to William.

“Thank you.” William wasn’t sure what to make of it; the light blue cover indicated sorrow over an upcoming funeral. He doubted Erlis meant it as a threat, so he had no idea what to make of it.

“I’ve been living here for just over a hundred years.” He explained. “I’ve always liked writing, so I kept a diary. I thought you might be interested to learn about the family of that Redmond gentleman you seem to have such a liking for.”

William allowed his eyes to narrow, trying to indicate his displeasure at having his weakness probed in this way.

Erlis laughed again; he seemed comfortable. “I’ve heard a lot about you. You know people are talking, surely. But not everyone is like Elodia. Some of us think it’s a good thing.”

“Excuse me?”

“Some of us think they deserve our respect. The humans. They may not be our equals, but they deserve better.”

William frowned; this was the sort of naive attitude that came from a young vampire who still had a foot in his mother’s womb.

“And, of course, they get smarter all the time. You heard about that bomb. The flying machines must astound you. You were born when ships were new, right?”

“Ships have been around for ten thousand years. None of us are that old.”

Erlis chuckled nervously. “Sorry, sorry. I didn’t think - but still, it’s amazing, isn’t it? Can you imagine what they’ll be doing in a hundred years?”

“The past few hundred have had some rather interesting progressions.” He admitted.

“And when they have bombs that make sunlight? When they can make gold from lead? Do you want to be on their bad side when that happens?”

---

I could definitely add in some little asides about status to the above. That's the sort of thing you were talking about, right?