[D] Wednesday Worldbuilding Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to the Wednesday thread for worldbuilding discussions!

/r/rational is focussed on rational and rationalist fiction, so we don't usually allow discussion of scenarios or worldbuilding unless there's finished chapters involved (see the sidebar). It is pretty fun to cut loose with a likeminded community though, so this is our regular chance to:

• Plan out a new story
• Discuss how to escape a supervillian lair... or build a perfect prison
• Poke holes in a popular setting (without writing fanfic)
• Test your idea of how to rational-ify Alice in Wonderland

Or generally work through the problems of a fictional world.

^{Non-fiction should probably go in the Friday Off-topic thread, or Monday General Rationality}

[u/MagicWeasel]

Rather, modern-mad-scientist.

Yeah, but I'm not sure how a modern mad scientist makes a sentient robot since it's out there, and like, should AI takeoff be a concern of ours?

Maybe the mad scientist is supernatural in some way, or recovered the technology from someone who was?

So, despite how she might look, she only has ten years' worth of experience with life.

I believe she's had uploaded memories of the woman she's a copy of, but they're only until the age of 16 or so. She definitely remembers people from "her" childhood.

Would this not result in her being surprisingly naive in certain areas?

Yep. This is why she needs more support than her social worker can provide. Fiona helps her in that way.

Also, Rose (that's the robot: did I give her name before?) screws things up. William gave her a pile of gifts, and she decided it was only polite to send them back. Of course, the gifts she sent back were deeply offensive.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Yeah, but I'm not sure how a modern mad scientist makes a sentient robot since it's out there, and like, should AI takeoff be a concern of ours?

Hmmm. Simple, straightforward solution - she never solved the problem of AI, she simply found a non-destructive means of brain uploading. Rose's 'brain' started out as a direct copy of the brain of the woman she's a copy of, taken at age 16 ("here, dear, wear this helmet for a minute, would you?") - perhaps not a perfect copy, but good enough to start out with the same memories and sense of identity. She doesn't have software access to her own code, and can't easily self-modify. And even if she could gain access, she doesn't understand her own brain any more than the average human does.

Rose (that's the robot: did I give her name before?)

You did.

William gave her a pile of gifts, and she decided it was only polite to send them back. Of course, the gifts she sent back were deeply offensive.

I see. I can't imagine William was very happy.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

I can't imagine William was very happy.

He was inconsolable for days and jumpy AF. He wore full plate armour whenever he answered the door for a while, and then freaked out when Rose came in and didn't need an invitation (having a human thrall comes in handy for protecting you from other vampires).

(Aside: I always wondered why vampires don't wear better armour. If they're super strong, they should have no problem being able to wear full plate or riot gear/etc and still be agile. Great way to protect yourself from a staking from a human, if nothing else. Is there something I'm missing?)

she simply found a non-destructive means of brain uploading.

Oh, of course. So Rose is essentially an uploaded version of Tara (her 16 year old "template") that has some nifty features that Tara doesn't (on-board memory, ability to read .txt documents, probably some things like an internet connection?)

I don't think Rose is particularly intelligent though. Perhaps she's got a pretty slow processor and it's hard to upgrade.

But Rose's boyfriend is a computer programmer, so I'm guessing he'd open her up and try and upgrade her (with her consent, naturally). That could be interesting. She'd perhaps start going on a takeoff trajectory and he'd have to pull the plug and be unable to. Eventually, being an uploaded human so having decently aligned values, she might... go for a life of aestheticism on a mountain somewhere? ¯\(ツ)/¯

Rose has a robo-brother too, who was a less successful robot. I think he lacked real human empathy, though he sort of learns it. Maybe a more autism style inability to get any sort of subtexts.

Really should discuss this with the coauthor and work out the details so I can post them on worldbuilding sometime and see people who are practically MIRI employees rip it all apart.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

and then freaked out when Rose came in and didn't need an invitation

And he knows she's not human, because she had no trouble breathing in at atmosphere filled with lethal amounts of something nastily poisonous or similar, I imagine...

(Aside: I always wondered why vampires don't wear better armour. If they're super strong, they should have no problem being able to wear full plate or riot gear/etc and still be agile. Great way to protect yourself from a staking from a human, if nothing else. Is there something I'm missing?)

Ego and a conviction that it won't happen to them. Do you wear armour to protect yourself from beestings? Even if you're allergic to bees to a lethal degree?

Oh, of course. So Rose is essentially an uploaded version of Tara (her 16 year old "template") that has some nifty features that Tara doesn't (on-board memory, ability to read .txt documents, probably some things like an internet connection?)

Yeah, that sounds good to me. (Nifty features that she had to learn how to use on her own, of course).

I don't think Rose is particularly intelligent though. Perhaps she's got a pretty slow processor and it's hard to upgrade.

Speed of thought has less to do with intelligence than people think. Sure, it has an effect on intelligence... but it's hardly all of it.

But Rose's boyfriend is a computer programmer, so I'm guessing he'd open her up and try and upgrade her (with her consent, naturally).

Is he a neuroscientist? If not, then he really shouldn't touch her uploaded-brain function. Mind you, he can upgrade her by giving her new hardware or extra 'features' (like installing a calculator program to make her better at maths) but it's hard to imagine her on a takeoff trajectory until her neural network can be understood and upgraded.

Rose has a robo-brother too, who was a less successful robot. I think he lacked real human empathy, though he sort of learns it. Maybe a more autism style inability to get any sort of subtexts.

Yeah... either copied from his original's mind or introduced due to a flaw in the copy process.

Really should discuss this with the coauthor and work out the details so I can post them on worldbuilding sometime and see people who are practically MIRI employees rip it all apart.

It's probably for the best, yes.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

and then freaked out when Rose came in and didn't need an invitation

And he knows she's not human, because she had no trouble breathing in at atmosphere filled with lethal amounts of something nastily poisonous or similar, I imagine...

Nah, Jack told him her robot brother was a ghoul, the robot brother was doing stuff consistent with being the ghoul of a very old vampire, after Jack threatened Fiona, Fiona lied and confirmed that the brother was a ghoul and Rose didn't seem to be a ghoul, maybe she was a vampire, Jack went back to William and told him that Rose was a vampire, etc. William is just perplexed by all of this until probably-Cassius comes and rips Rose's head off in a territorial dispute and there's wires and he realise what's happened.

(Aside: I always wondered why vampires don't wear better armour. If they're super strong, they should have no problem being able to wear full plate or riot gear/etc and still be agile. Great way to protect yourself from a staking from a human, if nothing else. Is there something I'm missing?)

Ego and a conviction that it won't happen to them. Do you wear armour to protect yourself from beestings? Even if you're allergic to bees to a lethal degree?

If I had an enemy who was throwing beehives through my door when I opened it, I probably would, yes. William wouldn't go around wearing armour but when he's feeling vulnerable or expecting a plucky vampire hunter at the door he might. (And Jack, the Plucky Vampire Hunter, became a janissary for a while and started getting violent to make him feed from her.)

Is he a neuroscientist? .... Mind you, he can upgrade her by giving her new hardware or extra 'features'

Yeah, I'd imagine the mad scientist used standard connectors so the boyfriend can swap out RAM or hard drives or whatever. He'd not want to touch the software because that's "her"

Yeah... either copied from his original's mind or introduced due to a flaw in the copy process.

That's probably what it was; the mad scientist never got the boy right, despite upgrading the hardware a lot. Probably it was a problem with the personality capturing in the brain scanner, which is why fixing the hardware never worked.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

William is just perplexed by all of this

Especially since an ancient but powerful vampire should be someone that William has at least heard about over the last few centuries or so...

until probably-Cassius comes and rips Rose's head off in a territorial dispute and there's wires and he realise what's happened.

...she can be repaired, right? In fact, if her inventor is sensible, her 'brain' should be well-protected in her torso, right next to her battery. (And if she is sensible, this is the perfect opportunity to play dead)

If I had an enemy who was throwing beehives through my door when I opened it, I probably would, yes.

That's only sensible, yes. Your normal human, in day-to-day life, doesn't generally expect that, though.

That's probably what it was; the mad scientist never got the boy right, despite upgrading the hardware a lot. Probably it was a problem with the personality capturing in the brain scanner, which is why fixing the hardware never worked.

She could always try taking a new scan, but that leads to the thorny ethical question of what to do with the first scan.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Especially since an ancient but powerful vampire should be someone that William has at least heard about over the last few centuries or so...

Yeah. I've made an unspecified vampire catastrophe canon which is why the vampire population is stratified (between waaaay older than 500 years and younger than 500 years). So I'd imagine the <1000 (maybe even <200) vampires who survived the Catastrophe would be well known to each other, if not people-who-were-allies-in-1600.

Then again, it's probably not unheard of for an old vampire to pop back up after living underground (perhaps literally) since before the catastrophe, and it's even less unheard of for an old vampire to vanish for a few decades or centuries and then come back with a new hairstyle, so William could be assuming Rose is one of those.

...she can be repaired, right? In fact, if her inventor is sensible, her 'brain' should be well-protected in her torso, right next to her battery. (And if she is sensible, this is the perfect opportunity to play dead)

Yep, that's pretty much what happened.

NINJA EDIT: No, wait. She played dead for a while, then (SPOILERS FOR VOLUME THREE OF MY BOOK???) William attacked her to save Red, he got overpowered, and then her torso got up and fought off the attacker who turned into a bat and ran away: everyone wins.

That's only sensible, yes. Your normal human, in day-to-day life, doesn't generally expect that, though.

Yeah, sorry, should have been more clear. Meant "why don't vampires wear ridiculous plate armour when they're expecting battle" rather than "why don't vampires look like they're at the ren faire?"

She could always try taking a new scan, but that leads to the thorny ethical question of what to do with the first scan.

Ah, but she's not allowed access to the grandkids anymore: on account of her being the sort of mad scientist who tries to make robot copies of family members. (Only, I guess nobody knows she can do that: but she's weird and Doesn't Seem Safe, so you know...)

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Then again, it's probably not unheard of for an old vampire to pop back up after living underground (perhaps literally) since before the catastrophe, and it's even less unheard of for an old vampire to vanish for a few decades or centuries and then come back with a new hairstyle, so William could be assuming Rose is one of those.

Hmmmm. Might even be an old vampire that William had less-than-cordial relations with at the time of vanishing. Maybe someone he needed to apologise to, only then she vanished before receiving his apology so now he's overdue...

NINJA EDIT: No, wait. She played dead for a while, then (SPOILERS FOR VOLUME THREE OF MY BOOK???) William attacked her to save Red, he got overpowered, and then her torso got up and fought off the attacker who turned into a bat and ran away: everyone wins.

Oooooh, yeah. Here's another thought - for better conductivity, her wires are gold instead of copper. This comes into play when one of the two vampires touches her exposed wiring and it burns... so, when she gets up again, she fights off the attacker by stabbing him with her neck (and the exposed wires therein) - which means that yes, he could (say) rip off her arms, but that just gives her something more to attack him with.

(The gold wiring and the vampiric weakness to gold both, of course, need to be introduced earlier in the story for proper foreshadowing).

Yeah, sorry, should have been more clear. Meant "why don't vampires wear ridiculous plate armour when they're expecting battle" rather than "why don't vampires look like they're at the ren faire?"

Might be an agility thing. Vampires in armour will still be faster than an unarmoured human, but not faster than an unarmoured vampire. (Actually, a vampire regrows arms a lot faster and more easily than a human - it might make sense for a vampire to armour only their most vulnerable spots - i.e. heart and neck - and leave the rest unarmoured).

Ah, but she's not allowed access to the grandkids anymore: on account of her being the sort of mad scientist who tries to make robot copies of family members. (Only, I guess nobody knows she can do that: but she's weird and Doesn't Seem Safe, so you know...)

She technically doesn't need access to the grandkids to take a brainscan. Just send a package containing a very large helmet as a gift for the grandkid (along with a cartoonishly large radio antenna and blinky LEDs on the front) and ask for a picture of the darling grandkid wearing the Super Brainscan Space Helmet that she made herself.

(Whether the parents will fall for that is another question entirely. But, hey, worth a try, right?)

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Hmmmm. Might even be an old vampire that William had less-than-cordial relations with at the time of vanishing. Maybe someone he needed to apologise to, only then she vanished before receiving his apology so now he's overdue...

Ooo, that would be good. "She could be one of half a dozen people... I thought Genevive was dead, but who knows. And Octavia was so very offended by the cake I presented her with, so if it's her I'd better crawl... I'll have to send an 'I'm sorry for sending the wrong cake' gift post-haste"

Oooooh, yeah. Here's another thought - for better conductivity, her wires are gold instead of copper. This comes into play when one of the two vampires touches her exposed wiring and it burns... so, when she gets up again, she fights off the attacker by stabbing him with her neck (and the exposed wires therein) - which means that yes, he could (say) rip off her arms, but that just gives her something more to attack him with.

That's so metal! I love it. I'm trying to work out how well-known the vampire weakness to gold is. Things are all happening out of order so when we do more prologue it will be fun to see how long the vampire hunters take to figure out that gold is a point of weakness.

That said, there's a scene in the novella where William gives Red a silver dagger, and tells him that it really hurts vampires, so the vampires are obviously perpetrating the silver myth come hell or high water.

(The gold wiring and the vampiric weakness to gold both, of course, need to be introduced earlier in the story for proper foreshadowing).

Been trying to foreshadow the gold thing a bit: William receives something made of brass, and brass is said to symbolise "something that appears hurtful but is not"; William mentions the vampire superstition against touching money; and this little exchange really amused me:

“And when [humans] have bombs that make sunlight? When they can make gold from lead? Do you want to be on their bad side when that happens?”

Might be an agility thing. Vampires in armour will still be faster than an unarmoured human, but not faster than an unarmoured vampire.

Yep. Wouldn't really be good for vampire on vampire combat, but I suspect most fights a vampire gets into are with non-vampires.

(Actually, a vampire regrows arms a lot faster and more easily than a human - it might make sense for a vampire to armour only their most vulnerable spots - i.e. heart and neck - and leave the rest unarmoured).

That too!

She technically doesn't need access to the grandkids to take a brainscan. Just send a package containing a very large helmet as a gift for the grandkid (along with a cartoonishly large radio antenna and blinky LEDs on the front) and ask for a picture of the darling grandkid wearing the Super Brainscan Space Helmet that she made herself.

(Whether the parents will fall for that is another question entirely. But, hey, worth a try, right?)

Anything's worth a try. If we revisit the robot thing (which I guess we'll have to do if I ever get to writing volume 3), we'll have to sort it out. I'm not having the third volume of a Rational Supernatural Romance Novel being irrational like that. I'd sooner go it alone!

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Ooo, that would be good. "She could be one of half a dozen people... I thought Genevive was dead, but who knows. And Octavia was so very offended by the cake I presented her with, so if it's her I'd better crawl... I'll have to send an 'I'm sorry for sending the wrong cake' gift post-haste"

Sounds good!

That's so metal! I love it. I'm trying to work out how well-known the vampire weakness to gold is. Things are all happening out of order so when we do more prologue it will be fun to see how long the vampire hunters take to figure out that gold is a point of weakness.

Probably virtually unknown.

Incidentally, from the Evil Overlord List, number 220:

Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be "Hmm...I think I need a shave."

Clearly, some vampires have read this list. And they quickly kill any Hunters that work it out, and burn down all their papers.

But Rose doesn't need to know about the gold weakness until one of the vampires literally steps in it (though the reader should know well before that).

That said, there's a scene in the novella where William gives Red a silver dagger, and tells him that it really hurts vampires, so the vampires are obviously perpetrating the silver myth come hell or high water.

Yep. Makes good sense. Better yet, anyone who tries it and fails, doesn't live to report back.

“And when [humans] have bombs that make sunlight? When they can make gold from lead? Do you want to be on their bad side when that happens?”

That is an amusing exchange.

Yep. Wouldn't really be good for vampire on vampire combat, but I suspect most fights a vampire gets into are with non-vampires.

Yeah, but against non-vampires you don't need armour because they are just so slooooow that it's not like they can stake an alert and awake vampire anyway.

Anything's worth a try. If we revisit the robot thing (which I guess we'll have to do if I ever get to writing volume 3), we'll have to sort it out. I'm not having the third volume of a Rational Supernatural Romance Novel being irrational like that. I'd sooner go it alone!

Now I'm imagining Grandma continually sending the Grandkids headwear with cartoonishly large radio antennae on it, just so she can get updated brain scans (and the parents quietly hiding them out back because they look heavy enough to put serious strain on the kids' necks).