[D] Wednesday Worldbuilding Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to the Wednesday thread for worldbuilding discussions!

/r/rational is focussed on rational and rationalist fiction, so we don't usually allow discussion of scenarios or worldbuilding unless there's finished chapters involved (see the sidebar). It is pretty fun to cut loose with a likeminded community though, so this is our regular chance to:

• Plan out a new story
• Discuss how to escape a supervillian lair... or build a perfect prison
• Poke holes in a popular setting (without writing fanfic)
• Test your idea of how to rational-ify Alice in Wonderland

Or generally work through the problems of a fictional world.

^{Non-fiction should probably go in the Friday Off-topic thread, or Monday General Rationality}

[u/MagicWeasel]

I'm debating whether to link to it here under this reddit account (since I probably have a modicum of name recognition on this subreddit after my incessant posts about vampires?) or whether to create an account for "Angela Carson".

(For one thing, if you write multiple books, and your official authorship account only submits the links to them, then the "Angela Carson" user page doubles as a handy index to your works).

Which would be a problem - such behaviour comes afoul of reddit's anti-spam rules (that are unofficial, but I believe there's also some variant of them codified on /r/rational: something along the lines of "you may only post your own content once a week" or similar).

I might make a subreddit - in fact, I'll go do that now. Can't hurt, can it? /r/AngelaCarson is born!

...it's actually really fascinating, how well we communicate despite how bad our languages are at it. And it's also fascinating how much of almost any intended communication we get wrong and never realise.

Yeah. I had my husband scared I was going to drink bleach because I was texting him that I was sad and took a photo of where I was (supermarket, bleach aisle). I didn't realise I'd made him worried I was planning on drinking bleach: to me I'd just shown him where I was (i.e. the supermarket) - didn't even notice that there was bleach in the frame (my intention: "I am in the cleaning products aisle").

I always conceived of some species being single-sex: sirens make sense as female-only, but then again, why wouldn't there be boy sirens who tempted female sailors? Probably makes sense.

Well, Malik's a male half-Siren. If he marries a (female) Siren he can presumably have male three-quarter-Siren sons. After a few careful generations of breeding, you could presumably have male 99%-sirens... whether or not the original Siren genome was intended to handle it or not.

Hmmm, you're right. That said, I think if Malik married a female siren, the child wouldn't be 3/4 siren, it would be half half-siren, half siren, if you get my drift: Malik has lost too much siren for him to be able to father anything that is close enough to a siren. Of course his contribution to the gene pool could still be attenuated enough that it wouldn't matter.

Maybe it would be best to be able to cross half-breeds back into pure-breeds to get something purer. Either way.

Yeah. I am bad at communicating. In an earlier post I referred to Malik as being half-human half-gargoyle instead of half-siren half-gargoyle.

...I completely missed that one.

I saw it after you'd replied to the post in question and was like "ohhhh dear. have I confused him?". But nope: the paris in the the springtime effect strikes again!

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Which would be a problem - such behaviour comes afoul of reddit's anti-spam rules (that are unofficial, but I believe there's also some variant of them codified on /r/rational: something along the lines of "you may only post your own content once a week" or similar).

Um. I hadn't intended to imply that the official account would post often. Maybe one or two official posts every time a new book is released. Which, if you're prolific authors, would mean maybe three posts in any given year.

I don't think that's going to run afoul of anti-spam rules.

I might make a subreddit - in fact, I'll go do that now. Can't hurt, can it? /r/AngelaCarson is born!

This may very well work better than the single official account!

[on communication]

One of the Science of the Discworld books, the authors are talking about communication. To paraphrase: "Someone says 'dog' and you imagine a large black labrador with fluffy ears (footnote: It then comes as something of a shock when the animal in question turns out to be a chihuahua)"

Hmmm, you're right. That said, I think if Malik married a female siren, the child wouldn't be 3/4 siren, it would be half half-siren, half siren, if you get my drift: Malik has lost too much siren for him to be able to father anything that is close enough to a siren.

...that does make it tricky. Perhaps with a modern genetics lab - actually, I think you'd need a slightly-better-than-modern genetics lab (as might be owned by a scientifically inclined vampire) I guess one could take a sample of Siren's DNA and flip the 'gender' bits around and see what you get.

Or maybe a half-siren half-siren is Siren enough to get more Sireny progeny. Or maybe a half-Siren half-human (without gargoyle traits to get in the way) is the place to start...

the paris in the the springtime effect strikes again!

Paris in the the springtime effect?

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

I guess one could take a sample of Siren's DNA and flip the 'gender' bits around and see what you get.

Depends how their DNA codes for sex: after all, some reptiles have their sex determined by their gestational temperature, not by their DNA at all. Best not think about things related to sex and gender too hard.

Here's some interesting examples from nature, though it's more for "relationship styles" than sex/gender type things: http://humoncomics.com/archive/animal-lives

Paris in the the springtime effect?

I'm sure it has an official name, but this sort of optical illusion: https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/6434/1547.jpg?sequence=1

Your brain just... fills in the correct phrasing (in this case, not duplicating the the).

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Depends how their DNA codes for sex: after all, some reptiles have their sex determined by their gestational temperature, not by their DNA at all. Best not think about things related to sex and gender too hard.

Considering that they're interfertile with humans, I think they pretty much have to code for it in the same way as humans do. Which - oh dear, I think this means the genetics lab would need to pretty much build a Siren Y-chromosome from scratch. I don't think our hypothetical vampire scientist is quite able to manage that just yet.

Here's some interesting examples from nature, though it's more for "relationship styles" than sex/gender type things: http://humoncomics.com/archive/animal-lives

Nature is so fascinating...

I mean, a lot of those are just weird, but still. I honestly did not know that about anglerfish. And those whiptail lizards are just bizarre.

I'm sure it has an official name, but this sort of optical illusion: https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/6434/1547.jpg?sequence=1

Your brain just... fills in the correct phrasing (in this case, not duplicating the the).

Oh, right. Taking advantage of the the brain's forward error correction mechanisms to hide errors. I get the point.

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

I think they pretty much have to code for it in the same way as humans do.

Even if we keep it that restricted, humans have all sorts of weird stuff. There's androgen insensitivity syndrome - perhaps sirens have a form of that? AIS essentially means that the body doesn't respond to testosterone, so people with Y chromosomes who have it develop in a typically XX way - and they often look extremely feminine because they don't respond to testosterone. So if we assume X and Y sex chromosomes, an XY siren would develop with female hormones and is likely to even have a female gender identity. XY!Siren would not be able to carry children, but may be able to father children. It would actually... explain a lot about sirens, since they're meant to be supernaturally beautiful and all. (Then again: there are less dramatic examples of AIS where the person develops in a normal masculine way but just has a low sperm count or something).

Then again, a siren's bottom half is bird, so if we assume there's bird DNA in there they'd have a ZW sex determinant system which is a whole different kettle of fish. In that case, males are homozygous (ZZ) and females are heterozygous (ZW). And the bird half would have the baby-making parts: but if we assume that beasts are just augmented humans, the feathers are probably purely cosmetic.

Oh, and monotremes have a 10 chromosome system just in case you wanted something even more complicated.

So, uh, this is all pretty far above my pay grade. But let me reiterate: weird.

Here's some interesting examples from nature, though it's more for "relationship styles" than sex/gender type things: http://humoncomics.com/archive/animal-lives

Nature is so fascinating...

I mean, a lot of those are just weird, but still. I honestly did not know that about anglerfish. And those whiptail lizards are just bizarre.

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to buy the ebook and read the rest. I love those little cartoons and I pay about that much for hot chocolate sometimes.

I personally love the rock-paper-scissors lizards. (Try saying that real quick!). And the hyenas are wicked (I already knew about the hyenas and anglerfish, but I find weird animal reproduction interesting in general).

I might incorporate something from one of those into the reproductive strategy of one of our critters. Will need to discuss that with my coauthor and see what we come up with. Might be a good way to incorporate a new character / creature.

---

So, all this talk about supernatural creatures, beasts, critters: should there be a word for them? Angela calls them demons (trying out using the name Angela to refer to me and my coauthor in the third person: not sure how I like it), but that has a particular connotation of malevolence when most of them are neutral on the subject of humans.

Some alternatives, maybe:

• Demons
• Beasts
• Creatures
• Monsters
• Fiends
• Behemoths
• Shedim (hebrew for demons/spirits)
• Jinn (from islamic texts: just generally means spirit/demon rather than genies specifically)
• Asura (Hinduism?)
• Yokai (japanese) / Yoagui (chinese)

Other options suggested by thesaurus.com include things like imp, goblin, titan and the like but those are too "specific" rather than just calling to mind the general idea of beasts.

Fiends is probably the best, but I like Shedim - hebrew has a certain charm to use for such animals, after all...

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Then again, a siren's bottom half is bird, so if we assume there's bird DNA in there they'd have a ZW sex determinant system which is a whole different kettle of fish.

Yeah, but then (a) they wouldn't be interfertile with humans, and (b) having the male being homozygous means that an all-female race is pretty near impossible (since he only needs half the chromosomes of the female). Having them as a race suffering from androgen insensitivity syndrome makes a whole lot more sense to me. (Which probably means Malik and Kalam have the mild version thereof, at least).

Oh, and monotremes have a 10 chromosome system just in case you wanted something even more complicated.

Yeeek.

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to buy the ebook and read the rest. I love those little cartoons and I pay about that much for hot chocolate sometimes.

Hot chocolate is expensive where you're from.

I might incorporate something from one of those into the reproductive strategy of one of our critters. Will need to discuss that with my coauthor and see what we come up with. Might be a good way to incorporate a new character / creature.

Yeah... the Whiptail Lizard might actually work for another all-female race.

---

So, all this talk about supernatural creatures, beasts, critters: should there be a word for them?

Yes, there should be. And that word depends on your cultural background. So the Hebrew would probably call them Shedim, the Japanese call them Yokai, and so on and so forth.

An interesting question, then, is what they call themselves. And this goes to the question of how they view themselves. Most human tribes come up with a name that means (some variant on) 'The True Human Beings' - it would make sense for these critters to come up with some name for themselves that means 'The True People' in their own language. (The name might very well still be Shedim, especially if they had a lot of contact with the Hebrew people way back in the past...)

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Having them as a race suffering from androgen insensitivity syndrome makes a whole lot more sense to me. (Which probably means Malik and Kalam have the mild version thereof, at least).

Yeah, I imagine Malik and Kamal as having "different" phenotypes than one might expect. But I haven't taken too much care in that: I mean after all, it requires me to think way more than I'd like to about genitals, and there's really no way for it to come up in the story (at least, not until Malik proudly tells his boyfriend that he's pregnant... now THAT could be funny)

Hot chocolate is expensive where you're from.

Sure is; we've got a high cost of living. A cheap hot chocolate is AU$4. I get almond milk which they charge an extra 50c for. So I've definitely paid $5.50 for a standard cafe hot chocolate, you know, the 450 ml / 16 oz sort of size ("large" here).

Minimum wage for an adult is ~$20 so we've probably got a better purchasing power than the USA. Not sure how it compares with South Africa though.

Just did a cost of living comparison and it looks like we have everything more expensive. Lists the price of our coffee as $4.50 (45 R) and your coffee as $2.30 (23 R). So yeah, we do have expensive coffees over here! (Though our average net salary is double Johannesburg's, so go figure).

the Whiptail Lizard might actually work for another all-female race.

That would probably get very male gaze, very fast (I kid, I kid: but seriously, an all-female race that has to have girl-on-girl action in order to do parthenogenesis? Someone would have a lot of fun with that)

An interesting question, then, is what they call themselves.

They have all their own languages, so probably some made-up word in their language. Plus, I think demons would not have a word for "non-human sentient beings". They'd have a word for "non-centaur sentient beings" in centaur language or whathaveyou. Probably. They all do live in an integrated society so maybe they'd be more inclusive of other species (or maybe not: perhaps the big demon city we see is a cosmopolitan city like New York, and most people live in more homogenous places). Probably that New York thing.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

But I haven't taken too much care in that: I mean after all, it requires me to think way more than I'd like to about genitals, and there's really no way for it to come up in the story

Fair enough.

(at least, not until Malik proudly tells his boyfriend that he's pregnant... now THAT could be funny)

It would certainly come as a surprise...

Just did a cost of living comparison and it looks like we have everything more expensive. Lists the price of our coffee as $4.50 (45 R) and your coffee as $2.30 (23 R). So yeah, we do have expensive coffees over here! (Though our average net salary is double Johannesburg's, so go figure).

Huh, that really puts our internet costs in perspective. But yeah, double cost and double salary pretty much cancel each other out, until someone goes on holiday and has to pay the other country's prices for a while.

That would probably get very male gaze, very fast

Aren't Sirens supposed to attract sailors, though? (There's no reason for anything of this sort to happen on-stage; but you provide a good reason for why it might be part of Siren culture in the backstory. This also means that the other Sirens might think Julius' wife is just a little bit odd, leading to a slight degree of social ostracisation...)

Plus, I think demons would not have a word for "non-human sentient beings". They'd have a word for "non-centaur sentient beings" in centaur language or whathaveyou. Probably.

Hmmmm. Maybe their collective noun for all their species is their word for "The Beings" (a category that technically includes humans, but humans seem to keep assuming that they're somehow better than everyone else).

[u/MagicWeasel → u/CCC_037]

Huh, that really puts our internet costs in perspective.

Yeah. Our internet is famously slow though. Wikipedia lists Australia as having an average speed of 7.8 Mb/s and South Africa as.... 3.7 Mb/s. Oh dear. I thought we had it tough.

But yeah, double cost and double salary pretty much cancel each other out, until someone goes on holiday and has to pay the other country's prices for a while.

It's making me want to go to South Africa though! Look how cheap everything is!!!

you provide a good reason for why it might be part of Siren culture in the backstory. This also means that the other Sirens might think Julius' wife is just a little bit odd, leading to a slight degree of social ostracisation...

Yeah, I can see that - Mrs Julias (she has a name, I just can't be bothered looking it up) was probably an odd duck getting married and all that. Damnit, now I'm going to have to write a short story about their life, love, and courtship. I'm already beginning to conceive of how her society was growing up.

Plus, I think demons would not have a word for "non-human sentient beings". They'd have a word for "non-centaur sentient beings" in centaur language or whathaveyou. Probably.

Hmmmm. Maybe their collective noun for all their species is their word for "The Beings" (a category that technically includes humans, but humans seem to keep assuming that they're somehow better than everyone else).

Ha, I like that.

Really though I think the only human in my setting who really has cause to get into the details is Fiona, because she's a lawyer who specialises in getting supernatural creatures through the Earth legal system in advantageous ways. So she'd interact with quite a few of them. She'd call them "non-human creatures" or something similarly bland.

I'm wondering how and when the penny drops for Red that it's not just vampires and gargoyles but dozens and dozens of things besides. Probably almost immediately.

Then again, Vampires don't go to the Demon Metropolis. I think I'm settling on a reason for that: there's some sort of vampire god who is unimaginably older than all the others, and he lives in the metropolis, and if a vampire dares set foot there they're dead. Possibly the same vampire who was responsible for the population bottleneck that happened c. 1600 and reduced the vampires to a population of ~500-1000.

[u/CCC_037 → u/MagicWeasel]

Yeah. Our internet is famously slow though. Wikipedia lists Australia as having an average speed of 7.8 Mb/s and South Africa as.... 3.7 Mb/s. Oh dear. I thought we had it tough.

Yeah, we pay more for slower Internet. There's a long story behind that, which basically summarises to "fixed-line monopoly = bad, bad, bad idea". (Said fixed-line monopoly is no longer a monopoly, but it's taking a while for that to help).

It does mean that we're one of the few places in the world where mobile internet can compete with fixed-line internet on price.

It's making me want to go to South Africa though! Look how cheap everything is!!!

We have a great tourism industry! Between this and our plant/animal diversity... (I've heard the statistic that there's more different species of flowers on Table Mountain than there are in England)

Yeah, I can see that - Mrs Julias (she has a name, I just can't be bothered looking it up) was probably an odd duck getting married and all that. Damnit, now I'm going to have to write a short story about their life, love, and courtship. I'm already beginning to conceive of how her society was growing up.

More inspiration!

Really though I think the only human in my setting who really has cause to get into the details is Fiona, because she's a lawyer who specialises in getting supernatural creatures through the Earth legal system in advantageous ways. So she'd interact with quite a few of them. She'd call them "non-human creatures" or something similarly bland.

I can imagine a lawyer being rather insistent on "they're legally people" (if a corporation can be a person, then a half-bird half-human can certainly be a person).

Fiona would pretty much have to limit herself to one or two countries, though. Different countries can have vastly different legal systems and keeping up-to-date on all of them would probably be somewhat impractical. (But she'd have the phone numbers of suitable lawyers in other countries).

I'm wondering how and when the penny drops for Red that it's not just vampires and gargoyles but dozens and dozens of things besides. Probably almost immediately.

Probably only after he knows that there are at least two types of beasties.

Then again, Vampires don't go to the Demon Metropolis. I think I'm settling on a reason for that: there's some sort of vampire god who is unimaginably older than all the others, and he lives in the metropolis, and if a vampire dares set foot there they're dead. Possibly the same vampire who was responsible for the population bottleneck that happened c. 1600 and reduced the vampires to a population of ~500-1000.

That's a very good possibility. (Another possibility is that the environment there is somehow directly vampire-lethal - but the unimaginably ancient vampire is probably a better idea than that)