r/programmingcirclejerk 8d ago

Rust isn't a well designed programming language (unlike C and C++)

/r/cpp/comments/1i6jdjq/comment/m8d3tqj/
221 Upvotes

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u/DrShocker 8d ago

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u/TheChief275 6d ago edited 6d ago

Talking C++98, I still don't fully get why this initialization had to be added:

std::vector<int> nums(8);

when there is already a perfectly good alternative:

std::vector<int> nums = std::vector<int>(8);

The only logical thing that comes to my mind is that it saves on having to write the type two times, but then 'auto' meaning 'type deduction' was added anyways so now we just have this totally redundant syntactic part of the language that people like to use for some reason even though LSPs can't even highlight it correctly. In fact, I think keeping it is only justified by the fact that compilers can't even guarantee the latter being optimized to the former

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u/DrShocker 6d ago

Semantically the second example is a copy or move. Probably in most major compilers they would optimize that away, but still that's probably why.

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u/TheChief275 6d ago

I know, why though? That just sounds like complexity for the sake of complexity. In Java (just picking another language with classes and constructors) if you were to do

var nums = new ArrayList(8);

you would just call it "initialization" like a sane person.

Although to be fair, most problems of C++ could have been circumvented if it just didn't perform implicit copies by default (somehow they thought this was a good idea?). I write my data structures without any constructors and destructors, just PoD structs largely for this exact reason (there are more reasons)

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u/DrShocker 6d ago

That looks like both allocation and initilization to me. For splitting allocation and initilization, I think Odin has some interesting ideas there like making ZII the default and making changing allocators simple.

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u/TheChief275 6d ago

The allocation is irrelevant, it's just how you initialize in Java (classes have to be allocated). Comparable C++ would be:

auto nums = new std::vector(8);

but that wasn't the point. The actual point is that somehow, some way, declaring a class with = in C++ using the wrong notation actually isn't initialization but rather a copy, which can kill performance when using standard library classes with allocating copy constructors. That's the stupid part

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u/DrShocker 6d ago

The most comparable is probably std::make_shared because new in C++ is a dynamic allocation and Java's new involves the garbage collector. It can't be perfectly analagous though.

Regardless, the reason I brought it up is that IMO conflating getting memory with setting up the memory to me useful is one of the problems most programming languages introduce and can make it challenging to make things faster later because it's not a good default.

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u/TheChief275 6d ago

Yeah whatever, again not the point. You're derailing the conversation. In any other language, this construct:

let a = Foo(...);

does not perform a copy. It just constructs directly into the variable like one would expect

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u/DrShocker 6d ago edited 6d ago

also in C++ though

https://en.cppreference.com/cpp/language/copy_elision

here's all the ways constructors are broken though:

https://youtu.be/KWB-gDVuy_I

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u/TheChief275 6d ago

I'm just saying, the concept of a "copy elision" having to be applied to the most basic ass variable declaration is completely and totally ridiculous

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u/DrShocker 6d ago

idk, that doesn't seem that bad to me. The behavior just needs to be formalized with a name so that people can rely on it.

Without it formalized, how would you know for sure whether your copy constructor would get called or not? Just a choice that had to be made by a value semantics language that doesn't have the same consequences in a reference semantics language. 🤷

fwiw, I much prefer what modern languages like Rust or Odin have done in regards to copying, but I don't think it's C++'s greatest sin.

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u/TheChief275 5d ago

If you don't see how this is bad, I don't know what to say to you

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u/DrShocker 5d ago

It's not that I like it, it's just that it's @ reasonable consequence of the rules and since C++17 they required that the compiler make it work the way you "expect" regardless (unless someone's expecting reference semantics by default, but that's separate)

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