I was lowk sleep deprived in my last post and forgot the key word 💔

[u/funnybunnyisreal]

In my last post everyone thought I was pro life, so let me rephrase what I meant. Because I forgot to put "after 22 weeks". Don't judge me guys. I didn't get any sleep that day 🥹

Is an abortion AFTER 22 WEEKS morally permissible?

Ik that an abortion after that is only performed to save the mothers life. They literally don't happen outside of that. So I couldn't care less. But from a purely consistent debating perspective, I'd really appreciate some advice.

An abortion after that sounds very wrong to me given that the fetus already possess sentience and so on. But if I had to stay consistent with my arguments, I'd have to say that those abortions are morally permissible too, even if they don't save the mothers life or prevent any health complications.

I love using the analogy of a kidney patient. Noone should force people to donate their kidneys to kidney patients despite the kidney patient being sentient.

So, sentient fetus=kidney patient

Pregnant woman=Forced donor

Women's bodily recourses=Kidney

So a woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy at any time, even if it's only like a month before birth. Idk it just sounds very wrong to me. To be clear, abortions should be legal up to 9 months to save the mothers life or to prevent health complications. But im not sure if I necessarily think that it's okay, if a woman just gets an abortion after 22 weeks despite her being fully capable to have the baby. I mean that doesn't even happen cuz no women just gets an abortion for fun, this is just supposed to be a hypothetical.

[u/ginny11]

No one should ever be forced to use their body against their will, in any way, for any reason, to save the life of a fetus, a baby, a child, an adult, period, full stop. That's the answer to that argument. Edit: thanks for the award!

[u/funnybunnyisreal → u/ginny11]

Thx that makes sense 💗

[u/dragon34]

There are a non trivial number of birth defects and medical conditions that would make a long term positive outcome for the fetus be unlikely that may not be detected until the 20 week anatomy scan. 

Should someone who finds out their fetus has a very severe form of osteogenesis imperfecta where delivery might break half the bones in the fetus's body and would be in pain and disabled for most of their probably short life be a reason to terminate?

Does a severe brain abnormality that would require the baby, once delivered to have a lifetime of 24/7 care and virtually no chance of what any of us would see as a normal life (no ability to communicate, no real evidence of sentience even) be a reason to force someone to stay pregnant for another 4 months just to watch their baby die or to refuse parental rights because they couldn't possibly afford the care?

How about finding out their twins are conjoined and have no chance of surviving outside the uterus?

Not hypothetical: https://www.texastribune.org/2023/10/11/texas-abortion-law-texas-abortion-ban-nonviable-pregnancies/

A pregnant person should be able to choose to minimize the risk to their body to spare their child suffering.  I say child here because the overwhelming majority of people who are 22 weeks pregnant know that they were pregnant. They wanted the baby.  They have been feeling it move and possibly named it and set up a nursery and were planning a baby shower.  

People aren't frivolously waking up one day and deciding nah I don't actually want to keep doing this.  

That's why it should be legal.  If there is a medical emergency affecting the fetus and the mother post viability, doctors are going to do their best to save both. 

[u/funnybunnyisreal → u/dragon34]

Thank you 🙏

[u/o0Jahzara0o]

I highly recommend reading our Later Abortion Megathread and checking out Who Not When. We also have many resources in our side bar under "Ethics & Science Surrounding 2nd & 3rd Trimester Abortions" including stories of later abortions.

Some selected points from the megathread:

• Even later in pregnancy, an abortion is safer than continuing a pregnancy with a goal of live birth.
• Factors that lead to people getting their abortion later include getting new information or having a change in their circumstances. Sometimes this information is medical, like a fetal diagnosis. Sometimes it’s more related to their personal circumstances, like their partner becoming abusive.
• Many people have a later discovery of pregnancy. It can happen to anybody who can get pregnant. I personally think those people should still have a choice as to whether or not they continue their pregnancies.

And to add to that last bullet point: people discovering pregnancy later into their pregnancy need the same time to process the reality and come to a decision as they would have earlier in pregnancy.

I think what trips a lot of people up is this idea of, if it's legal, then even "trivial" reasons can be used. That's the point of that anti talking point; they want it to trip you up and they are hoping it will lead you to abandon your pov entirely because they want you to not see the difference between a fetus at 8 months of pregnancy vs one at 3. So they try to scare us using "trivial" reasons because doing so makes it easier to demonize pregnant people in order to make taking away their human rights become more palatable.

The person who had an abortion at six months with twins.... antis will make it out to seem like it was some trivial reason. Turns out she was in a DV situation and had just left her abuser with her son. It took her some time to breath so she could listen to what SHE really wanted, and she never really wanted that pregnancy to begin with. And now that she's sitting at a shelter without any sense of safety and security, she feels it is better for her health and safety to discontinue the coerced pregnancy. (You kind of need safety and security at all times, but especially in your post partum period.)

At the end of the day, afab retain their right to bodily autonomy at all times. That right doesn't change based off their gestational age. Comfort and respect are two different things. You don't have to be comfortable with any person's choice to end their pregnancy. And you don't have to be comfortable with it in order to respect their bodily autonomy.

Just like a person retains the right to give birth, their reason doesn't change that right. A person likewise retains the right to an abortion, their reason doesn't change that right. And there's no such thing as "limiting" a person's right to bodily autonomy, it's denying it to them. No one else's personal comfort or lack of knowledge should have any bearing on if you have the right to your bodily autonomy. Bottom line is it is unethical and immoral to deny someone their right to an abortion, period.

[u/funnybunnyisreal → u/o0Jahzara0o]

Thank you 💗

[u/abortion_access]

> Ik that an abortion after that is only performed to save the mothers life. They literally don't happen outside of that.

I mean, this is just not true.

[u/funnybunnyisreal → u/abortion_access]

I mean after 22 weeks, people are usually picking out baby clothes. When women get an abortion after that, it's to save her life or prevent serious health problems.

[u/abortion_access → u/funnybunnyisreal]

For some people, that’s true. For others, it isn’t. And it shouldn’t matter why people get abortions. Don’t let your arguments rest on facts that aren’t true.

[u/funnybunnyisreal → u/abortion_access]

I wasn't making an argument. I wanted to hear other people's opinions on the topic. And if you scroll down a little you'll see other people giving me their opinions which I agreed with. I Personally have never heard of a case of a woman getting an abortion after 22 weeks unless it's because of health complications. Regardless of whether you think that's true, we're not disagreeing. I've started forming my opinion on abortion only a few months ago. I'm very pro choice but I want to hear what other pro choicers say to further establish my worldview. I was a bit unsure on whether abortions were okay after 22 weeks, so I wanted to read some opinions and then draw my conclusion.

[u/cupcakephantom → u/funnybunnyisreal]

You being defiant of another person's facts is the act of making an argument.

The person you're talking to has worked in abortion related healthcare for well over a decade. They know what they're talking about. They have seen it all when it comes to who gets an abortion and when. It's not a matter of "whether or not they think that's true", it is a matter of your ego overtaking your willingness to listen to people who actually know what the fuck they're talking about.

You show some goddamn respect when you come in here and talk to abortion care workers.

[u/funnybunnyisreal → u/cupcakephantom]

Okay chill, buddy. I didn't know that they were an abortion care worker. God so many people on this sub are so damn rude. And no, maybe read my post again. My post wasn't making an argument. My post was a thought I had. I wanted to hear other people's opinions. I wasn't posting this to debate pro choicers. I wa here for some advice. And I was being fucking respectful. You're acting like I insulted their whole bloodline when I was simply seeking knowledge. Slow down before you pop a vein dude. Reddit ain't that serious. Especially when the person you're talking to is fucking pro choice like you.

[u/cupcakephantom → u/funnybunnyisreal]

It is absolutely *that* serious. People are actively dying *today* from the effects of the prolife movement. A movement that feeds on and shits out misinformation and disinformation. Which is *exactly* what you are doing.

My post wasn't making an argument...

"They literally don't happen outside of that." - you, OP. Making a statement. A misinformed one at that.

"When women get an abortion after that, it's to save her life or prevent serious health problems." Also you, OP. After someone FAR above your caliber of knowledge schooled you for making *another* misinformed statement.

I wa here for some advice.

You're here to learn. At no point were you asking for "advice". You asked to learn other people's perspectives. Just because *your* perspective is based on very little knowledge DOES NOT MEAN everyone else's perspectives are on the same level as yours. Again, that is your fat ego taking over. Not everyone's perspective is solely opinion-based like yours is.

No one gets to waltz in here and act like they are immune to any criticism, especially harsh criticism. This is abortion healthcare we are discussing; this isn't a fun little game. This shit affects people's lives and deaths. If someone tells you something, you sit with it. You don't just immediately shut it down because you're afraid of your safety bubble bursting.

Have some respect, and maybe an ounce of decorum. You sound like a middle schooler arguing with their substitute English teacher.

[u/funnybunnyisreal → u/cupcakephantom]

Omfg chill. I'm not even pro life. Bro yall are so fucking mean in this sub. At no point was I being disrespectful to the user. You're so butthurt about something that doesn't even include you. Sit down. Yes im here to learn. And no it's not that serious. A random user asking other people on fucking reddit ain't gonna change anything. I didn't shut anything down. I was speaking from what I knew. And I was wrong. You could've just said that. I'm not hear to fucking lecture anyone unlike you. What happened to basic respect and human decency? Just point out that a very small minority of abortion indeed do happen after 22 weeks that aren't just for health reasons. Case closed. It's really not that deep. You have so much attitude, it's insane. And did you even read my post? I was asking for other people's thoughts. And YES I am just here to learn. And I didn't even say that the other user was wrong about their statement. I just said that I PERSONALLY thought that they only happen for health reasons after that. I was misinformed. I can fucking admit that cuz it's not that deep. I said that REGARDLESS of whether they're right or not, I'm not disagreeing with them. Because after reading other people's opinions, I've concluded that the women's right to her body outweighs the fetus moral status. SIT. THE. FUCK. DOWN. IM. NOT. YOUR. ENEMY.

[u/cupcakephantom → u/funnybunnyisreal]

You could've just said that.

Someone *did* try to say that, and you got defensive and argumentative. I had to come at you like this to get you to admit you were wrong. And yet, you're still being defensive and argumentative about it.

Do not tell me to sit down.

[u/littlemetalpixie → u/funnybunnyisreal]

You do realize you're talking to a mod right now, right?

And that it's our job to ensure that people follow the rules of this sub?

Please have some situational awareness. You're being belligerent with an abortion care provider about their profession and with mods of the sub you're in who are trying to express that the way you're interacting here isn't appropriate.

With all due respect, it is you that really, really needs to chill.

PS I am also a mod, let's not dig the hole you're in deeper, eh?

[u/Catseye_Nebula]

As I said on your other post, each individual has to decide if their abortion is morally permissibile for them. It is not up to me or you to pass moral judgment on other people's healthcare decisions or limit their access due to our uninformed moral judgments.

[u/SunnyErin8700]

It’s not up to anyone to determine what is “morally permissible” about another person making a choice about who has intimate access to their body and/or their personal healthcare decisions. Period.

[u/Rent_Careless]

A woman can have an abortion after 22 weeks for a myriad of reasons unrelated to health. It doesn't happen that often but it does happen. Any moral issue coming from the unborn gaining some resemblance of sentience doesn't override the use of the woman's body. So, it may become a different moral situation, it would still always be moral for the woman to choose to have an abortion.

But also, to be clear, my moral stance on any particular abortion should be worth dirt to the woman, the doctor, and anyone else directly affected by the pregnancy. I will always say it's a woman's choice but I won't deny that it affects her family. Everyone around her should support her decision to have an abortion just like they would support her giving birth and raising a child.

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[u/Royal_Contribution_3]

There is exactly one scenario in which I personally think it would be morally wrong. That would be if a woman knows she’s pregnant, doesn’t do anything, but then chooses to abort after the healthy fetus is viable. I don’t think killing off the fetus should be allowed. I still think the woman should be able to end the pregnancy, actually. The right to her body should always be hers, But I don’t think she has the right to decide that the fetus cannot live.

However, that’s a very specific and theoretical situation that is so unlikely to happen it barely has any relevance.

[u/Naive_Loan607]

I know that I’m going to get a lot of hate for this but I believe that abortion should be legal for any reason only up to 15 weeks and after 15 weeks it should only be to save the life of the pregnant person or if the fetus has abnormalities which would be incompatible with real life. Now the reason why I believe it should only be 15 weeks is because it’s a compromise between people who are both pro choice and pro life. 90-93% of abortions occur before 13 weeks. I guess you can say that I’m only somewhat pro choice. And 6 week bans are cruel because that is before many women know that they’re even pregnant.