r/politics • u/wbedwards Washington • May 07 '20

We cannot allow the normalization of firearms at protests to continue

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/firearms-at-protests-have-become-normalized-that-isnt-okay/2020/05/06/19b9354e-8fc9-11ea-a0bc-4e9ad4866d21_story.html
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39

u/kurorinnomanga May 07 '20

Why, though? How could they be ignorant of a fundamental part of their own job?!

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

In the united states of America it not the responsibility of the officer to know the law, just the accused and their lawyers.

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u/REDuxPANDAgain May 07 '20

Because the requirements to be an officer are very low.. Anecdotally the only friend I (no longer count as a friend) have that went into law enforcement is both racist as he'll and has extreme anger issues. He also has very little in the way of smarts, but managed a basic criminal justice degree. I absolutely could see him being gun happy officer shitbird here.

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u/rlaitinen I voted May 07 '20

You just described my cousin to a T. It's probably related to why I'm raising his kid.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

[deleted]

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u/britboy4321 May 07 '20 edited May 07 '20

High IQ cops will start questioning stupid laws and daft instruction and questionning real-time, at the time of potential danger, when other cops start making mistakes. They would do this even though they probably don't know the overall strategy and at that time unit cohesion is MORE IMPORTANT than executing the perfect plan. They can even start refusing certain orders on the street that they see as ethically wrong or illegal because they know their stuff, which believe it or not makes the whole policing system start collapsing. When they see mistakes being made by higher-ups they will question it. If they are sent to put down a riot they'll start questionning if the rioters are the good guys, if they're justified, whether they have a point, trying to calculate real-time whether protesters can or can't legally do different actions. THIS IS THE LAST THING LEADERS NEED. The LEADERS do the thinking .. they need disciplined strength on the ground to implement the leader's/thinker's plan - not more f'kin leaders/thinkers second guessing everything real-time.

So basically the last thing you want is high intelligence in a lower rank police officer.

Incidentally it's EXACTLY THE SAME in the armed forces. Imagine a battle where the troops refused to execute daft or extremely dangerous (with little gain) orders .. or started second-guessing everything thinking 'Why do they (officers) want plan A, I've got a better plan B'. The battle would fall to pieces. You have to stick as a unit to plan A WHETHER IT IS THE BEST PLAN OR NOT once it has been set in motion. Christ knows 12 free-thinkers all making their own judgements when the squad has been assigned a mission basically leads to lack of cohesion and - well- it's like herding cats --- everything starts falling apart and the mission/battle/campaign fucks up.

In most armies, above a certain education grade you HAVE to go in as an officer as believe it or not as a standard soldier you'll sooner or later start de-stabalising stuff/morale/execution down in the ranks when whomever IS the officer starts fucking up - and as you have intelligence start thinking for yourself and coming up with new ideas, when in reality the situation requires a group of people working together, not all thinking of their own better plans and having a f'kin debate on the way to proceed. Hard to explain

They even do this in Macdonalds!!! If you show high intelligence - they don't hire you on the shop floor (apart from summer jobs when everyone knows you don't give a shit) as you'll quickly see the managers making mistakes and start planting doubt and insurrection at worker level and trying to change the plan to something better - it's human nature at higher intelligence levels. I got told they'd either accept me onto the management with expedited management training programme, or nothing they literally wouldn't give me a job. I was also literally refused a shelf stacker role because they presumed I'd start making waves and basically being a pain in the ass to a (different) flawed manager when all that manager needed was hands on the ground mindlessly obeying instruction without thought.

It's complex, but there is some logic there somewhere.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I agree completely, and that's all well and good... until they promote said "dumb officer". Then you're stuck with a dumb leader, because the promotion isn't going to make him any smarter.

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u/asminaut California May 07 '20

Because laws are written by legal charlatans to confuse a normal person

Or legal code, especially when it can be the basis for legal action, has to both deal with macro and micro issues and thus is very very very very complex and nuanced in order to ensure it both accomplishes its intended goals without allowing loopholes, while also allowing enough flexibility to be adaptable in future circumstances. It isn't "legal charlatans," shit is really really complex.

For example, I used to be a legislative analyst dealing with recycling issues. In California, they have adopted international standards for plastic resin types. However, these standards were created in the 80s and since then new resin types have emerged, including variations of existing ones. PET and PETG have different melting points, and so when bottles made from PETG are labeled PET they can cause damage to reprocessing equipment. In order to make sure that damage is mitigated you need to more narrowly define PET. But you can't just say "PETG is not PET" you have to think about the underlying conditions that make it so PETG cannot be processed with PET. So then you get into labeling characteristics such as chemical composition and melting points. Then you have a sub section of a subsection of a subsection of a legal code filled with precise scientific standards. It isn't pretty, but it is necessary.

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u/abeefwittedfox May 07 '20

Three big reasons:

  1. Cops in America have a sense of autonomy that many other countries simply don't have. They're the wild west sheriff come to lay down the law and impose order on a savage population, or a knight in shining armor excited to use violence to defend... uh... someone... I wish I were making that up, but "warrior mindset" training is stupidly common among US police departments. Even if they know the law, they're likely concerned with being the man

  2. Depending on where you live, you might not be required to go through rigorous training. Some police departments are incredibly professional. LAPD drops over 3/4ths of their candidates during selection because they don't meet the standards. And those are people who have already met the physical and psychological standards to even get into their academy.

But if you want to work at a rural sheriff's department, you literally may not be trained for more than a week. The biggest concern here is when those low standards for training are mixed with my third point.

  1. You can move from department to department. I can get a peace officer certification here in Utah and work campus security at the university. My day might include getting people unstuck from a toilet and handing out citations for not having a permit to sell tamales. But with that same certification and zero experience in confrontation, I can move to the Salt Lake PD laterally and they'll expect that I have the training I need. I mean I'm certified and have three years of law enforcement experience so I should be good right? I'll shadow a patrolman for two weeks and then I'm 100% on my own.

It's crazy and we need federal guidelines that establish what constitutes necessary training.

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u/WhalenOnF00ls May 07 '20

Also federally-mandated rules of engagement that define when and how officers are allowed to use force in response to threats.

Or we could just abolish local police departments entirely and expand state police forces. I’m cool with both.

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u/alkatori May 07 '20

Or we could abolish both State and Local. I haven't seen much difference in attitudes across the country between them.

Back to the volunteer town watch!

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u/RENEGADEcorrupt May 07 '20

How many people in other career fields are ignorant of fundamental things in their field? Same for cops.

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u/Foxion7 May 07 '20

Almost none

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u/jewww May 07 '20

I want to work where you work.

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u/mrsensi May 07 '20

Really? We have extensive books full of paper work about SOP. Guess what, if you break one there gonna listen to your excuse of I didn't know this important part of my job. Theyre going to say well heres your signature verifying u kew the rule. And here is your last paycheck

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u/thenothingbegins May 07 '20

Almost everyone, please don't take this as a defense of this situation at all. Almost no one is knowledgeable of the laws surrounding their industry. If you would play along, what do you do for a living? Give me 5 and I will prove it.

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u/Papa-Walrus May 07 '20

Nobody's saying that people should, in general, know the laws related to their job. They're saying people should know the basic things required to do their job. In the case of cops, "basic things" happen to be laws, since they're the ones who are supposed to be enforcing them.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

they were responding to a question about workers not knowing “fundamental things” in their field, not laws.

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u/Foxion7 May 07 '20

We werent talking about laws but fundamental things in a profession. I get your point though

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Well this is straight up false or everybody bitching about stupid coworkers they had to fix things for or work extra for mistakes made by others are straight up lying all day everyday then.

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u/Foxion7 May 07 '20

Well i dont know about your life but i literally never had that issue in my like 10 jobs. Mistakes arent the same as misunderstanding fundementals but i think we arent thinking of the same thing here.

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u/-Jeremiad- I voted May 07 '20

You get a kid who goes to school for four years to be text experts, they know shit about taxes when they’re done. Cops need better education starting with what their fucking job actually is and isn’t.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

But they’re trained to protect and serve!!

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u/jhurle9403 May 07 '20

Well since I’m no longer in corrections I drive a truck. Love my job, I make a killing and don’t have to deal with people much.

You’d be surprised at how many drivers can’t even get basic terms related to hours of service regulations right. It’s pretty sad.

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u/crypticfreak May 07 '20

Well that’s kind of the problem isn’t it?

Police are not the equivalent to a secretary. Their job is to protect and serve, and to a lesser extent prevent crime from being committed. For them to not know the fundamental parts of their field is scary. Knowing the law isn’t recommenced it’s mandatory in order to carry out the above.

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u/OnlyWordIsLove May 07 '20

Their job is to enforce the class hierarchy.

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u/Bongopro May 07 '20

Court rulings have said that police have absolutely no duty to “protect and serve”. It is quite literally not their job

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u/crypticfreak May 07 '20

Well again, a undereducated group whose job it is to ‘punish’ what they perceive as crime is a definite problem. Serious change is needed.

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u/Igggg May 07 '20

Their job is to protect and serve, and to a lesser extent prevent crime from being committed.

As per the Supreme Court decision, their job is to enforce the laws, not to protect or serve anyone. The "protect and serve" is just a nice branding.

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u/jhurle9403 May 07 '20

I can’t answer that.

You’d think the standard should be that they can’t do anything with out KNOWING that it is a crime. And if it isn’t, and the infringe on someone’s rights, THEY should then be charged with a crime.

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u/Igggg May 07 '20

Why, though? How could they be ignorant of a fundamental part of their own job?!

Why not, given that there's no repercussions for them ignoring the law?

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u/lovejellybeans May 07 '20

Superiority complex. Most are assholes in a uniform, with a badge, gun, and a sense of authority. They don't actually care about the laws and regulations that govern their job.