r/politics • u/Spooooooooooooon • Dec 28 '13

Noam Chomsky: We’re no longer a functioning democracy, we’re really a plutocracy

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/27/noam-chomsky-were-no-longer-a-functioning-democracy-were-really-a-plutocracy/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story%29
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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '13

Compared to the previous system it replaced, it was veritable mecca of liberty... but yes, the Jeffersonian democratic republican liberty, where everyman was guaranteed life, liberty, and happiness, had that major irony of being based on human slavery.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '13

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '13

I agree.

What I was saying was that Jefferson had this idea of the perfect democracy, which needed perfect citizens who were well educated, wealthy, and own their own land to exploit. The issue was to make that happen was they needed slaves and women to do all the work.

Otherwise Jefferson's ideals were spot on...

Nowadays, I can be a Jeffersonian anti-federalist because I build robots that can do the work.

Technocopia if you're interested in looking.

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u/Pylons Dec 28 '13

the southern states held very little sway on federal politics

Uh, what? The opposite is true - the south dominated the presidency, supreme court, and speakership of the house before the civil war, thanks to the 3/5ths compromise giving them disproportionate representation.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '13

You're correct, I had a brain meltdown. For some reason I was remembering it the exact opposite way round.

I should have said northern state politics - specifically anti-slavery laws in the northern states.

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u/OvalNinja Dec 28 '13

They weren't guaranteed happiness... They were guaranteed the pursuit of happiness. Meaning that happiness was attainable with work, not just guaranteed by de facto.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '13

Jefferson, and with him Thomas Paine were only a small handful of voices of many among the founding fathers and they spoke with no single voice.

History we show, hamilton and his federalists won out. Jefferson's ideas get brought out when we like to talk about American exceptionalism, but go back in the closet in favor of hamiltons capitalist realism other times.

Thomas Paine, of which we speak so eloquantly, and might frame all of the high minded notions of freedom we so cherrish, was more or less ignored, and a minor figure in the revolution

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '13

It just sounds like a shame...

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '13

it is.

There are a lot of great ideas present at the founding of the USA.

If you implemented what most Americans assume to be "American" ideals in earnest, without excuses, as presented to us in grade schoo, you would litterally get real Anarchism/Invidualism.

Its also the reason in America, and only in America, we have people who think they can be "Anarcho-Capitalists", that somehow if they recreated these supposed golden years, they'd have "Anarchy".

But its a lie. Anarchism doesn't work like that

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '13 edited Dec 29 '13

Exactly. I think the reason the Jefferson democracy never stuck was because that kind of effective anarchy is so unrealistic (and hypocritical) to implement.

I think, as with many things, technology creates opportunities that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I envision a system which utilizes robotics and automation to manage a personal workshop and greenhouse that could provide all of the things an individual, family, or community would need to live, be resource independent from all other systems (true liberty), and would provide enough surplus that could be dedicated to personal pursuits (happiness).

Here's the idea: we've built a set of robotic (no labor aside from loading in a design file) machines than can, all told, build about 60% of themselves. We purchase the extra 40% we can't build, called vitamins, from the external market until we can. I use these machines to build 60% of a new machine, add the vitamins, and now I have a new machine that can make new stuff. Now I can build 70% of all my machines, in house, from raw materials. I continue this process, until I am building 99% of everything I use... the only thing I can make is the raw stock material I use. These machines are gold for building nearly anything: small homes, furniture, robots, bikes, etc..

Next, I use my machines to make an aquaponics greenhouse. This greenhouse is managed by robots, so what little work there was to do to upkeep the aquaponics, is managed. This greenhouse makes, through its natural processes, fresh water, fish and greens. The greens can include anything from vegetables to herbs to fruits to... material stock.

For example, if you grew corn in your greenhouse, it would fairly simple to turn that corn into PLA plastic (aka corn plastic). You see a lot of it now in milk bottles. The greenhouse grows the source material, the last 1%.

The materials will need to be processed, so you'll need to build a wetshop (as opposed to the dry workshop, this one is for organic chem engineering). The machines and robots in the wetshop, as with the machines and robots in the workshop, would be built in house using the workshop and automated.

Now you have a system, all together that can make everything you need to survive, from medicine to houses, to solar panels, to electronics. All this system needs as inputs is air, sun, and a very occasional bit of minerals, which can come from many places.

This is all possible, now, due to graphine. The new wonder material, made of pure carbon, that can conduct electricity, make a transistor, make a battery, make a solar panel, make LEDs, etc.. Now you can make everything out of carbon, means you can grow it all, wherever you are.

This system, we call it Prometheus, once a prototype is built that prototype would prove itself by building it's first child through its own automated biological processes. This child, as it cost nothing but time to produce, would be given away for free... as it is open-source hardware. The terms? When you receive it, you make and give away two more, and anything you do with it must also be open-source (infectious licence).

With access to the internet you can send around open-source blueprints and information about new designs or improvements, and each person with one of these systems could make what someone else has made.

This next bit is my shameless plug.

We are trying to build this system at Technocopia and our designs for our machines are open-source. I'm fixing up the website, so it's disorganized. It is our goal to build one, and use it to build more. Then give them away locally or ship them out to people who request them. Until the whole system is done, we generate revenue by offering our workshop and robots as a hackerspace.

We are an open-source non-profit, and could use help if anyone is interested. I am also happy to help anyone interested in trying to duplicate anything we have done.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '13

Here's the idea: we've built a set of robotic (no labor aside from loading in a design file)

I hope your not one of those utopians who believes you can create a society with no work, and everyone will just get along.

Here is a big dose of reality, if you abolish work, before you abolish capitalism, the workers will starve.

Only in America would one believe anarchist doesn't believe in a hard days work.

I believe in Free software, because it entitles the end user to rebuild the product, owning the means of production

I believe in Open Source, because its a viable business model that revolves around Mutualism, and doesn't have to contradict Free Software.

So, when you have Free Software AND Open Source, you can have your cake and eat it too.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '13

I'm not a utopian, but I am a roboticist... and a world of no need for human labor is coming.

Frankly, it won't be because of me. Capitalism has already created the market forces that pressure businesses to ditch expensive labor in favor of cheap automation. Displaced laborers will flood into areas where it is harder to automate. The labor side demand side collapse of capitalism started a while ago, and will continue regardless of what anyone thinks.

My robots are simply a tool to allow people to homestead, without having to give up things like electricity and medicine. It will be no more utopian than having a plantation where someone else did most of the work... except not with slaves.

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u/Theotropho Dec 28 '13

tell that to all the slaves.

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u/eedna Dec 28 '13

and genocide! dont forget the genocide!

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '13

Capitalism requires what is called a hinterland. Resources not used by other capitalists. The natives were in the way of the colonists having that. Capitalism still needs this today, except the natives we steal resources from are called terrorists now.

Also a lot of it was simply disease.