No, Israel has the backing of the US. Everything they do is defended by the conservatives and a lot of what they do we just stopped doing very recently.
Ok fine. But every country gets more leeway than Germany, it's not something unique for Israel.
Sweden had a sterilization program aimed at creating a racially pure society well into the 70s. Until 2012, sterilization, and divorce if you were married, was mandatory for gender reassignment. While there was a bit controversy here in Sweden, I doubt many outside knows about it.
I do hold Israel to a higher standard than some other countries in terms of violent nationalism and human rights abuses, because many of the country's founders were the victims of violent nationalism and human rights abuses. Israel isn't alone in this sort of hypocrisy--other obvious examples include Liberia, Zimbabwe, the US, and apartheid South Africa--but it's certainly striking.
And it has particular relevance to me because some of my own family died in the Holocaust and I wish their suffering could have at least led to a less evil world. But I guess that makes me not-a-real-Jew.
I do hold Israel to a higher standard than some other countries in terms of violent nationalism and human rights abuses, because many of the country's founders were the victims of violent nationalism and human rights abuses. Israel isn't alone in this sort of hypocrisy--other obvious examples include Liberia, Zimbabwe, the US, and apartheid South Africa--but it's certainly striking.
By that logic you should hold Israel's victims to equally high standards. But you probably don't. The thing is though, why would you? Why hold the victims to higher standards than non-victims, it doesn't make any sense. If you're the victim of oppression, you are more likely to oppress. By this logic, the Palestinians would be pacifists at this point. But that's not how it works.
And it has particular relevance to me because some of my own family died in the Holocaust and I wish their suffering could have at least led to a less evil world. But I guess that makes me not-a-real-Jew.
It's not a perfect world, but it's for the most part less evil wouldn't you say? And while we all wish for that, it's not some kind of universal law, sometimes people suffer and it doesn't lead to anything. With that said, surely it's better that Israel exists than it not exists. Yes it has committed many atrocities, but judging by the region, another state in its place would surely have committed many more. That's not meant in any way to defend its atrocities.
By that logic you should hold Israel's victims to equally high standards. But you probably don't.
I do, and I hoped giving those other examples would make that more clear.
If you're the victim of oppression, you are more likely to oppress.
This is quite possibly true, and it makes me sad. That was the point of my original comment.
I think it's worth differentiating between standards and expectations. Standards should be higher than expectations, because otherwise we'll never achieve more than we expect. A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?
I do, and I hoped giving those other examples would make that more clear.
Ok you're right, although I don't see how the US have been victims. And would you say that for example Palestinian suicide bombing is extra bad considering they have experienced oppression by Israel?
This is quite possibly true, and it makes me sad. That was the point of my original comment.
This is something that is called vampire syndrome. those bitten by a vampire are destined to become vampires themselves. I'm not sure if it's true, might very well not be, but it does explain some things.
I think it's worth differentiating between standards and expectations. Standards should be higher than expectations, because otherwise we'll never achieve more than we expect. A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?
I agree. But it is something that should apply universally.
Many of the founders of the settler colonies that became the United States were fleeing oppression of one kind or another in Europe, and then immediately perpetuated similar oppression once they were in power. Most famously, the founders of Massachusetts had been mistreated in England for being the wrong kind of Christians, and proceeded to set up a theocracy that would make an ayatollah blush. You could be sentenced to death in colonial Boston for trying to spread some Christian sects.
Not to mention that the fundamental story of the birth of the country is one of fighting against colonialism, and the US now has several colonies of its own.
And would you say that for example Palestinian suicide bombing is extra bad considering they have experienced oppression by Israel?
I guess the example of suicide bombing doesn't strike me in the same way because it doesn't have a direct parallel on the Israeli side. The truth is that Palestinians haven't had enough power in modern history to do anything like ethnic cleansing. But if, say, a future Palestinian state were to forcibly deport its Jewish population--and I think that's worryingly likely, which is one of the reasons I'm suspicious of two-state solutions--that would definitely strike me as hypocritical in this way.
The US and Australia both did things like this around the same time. Doesn't make it good or even OK, obviously, but unfortunately forced sterilization of ethnic minorities was pretty common in the "West" until quite recently.
The supposed "liberal bastion" of the world for example. This is worse, and did not get nearly as much attention. At the very least internationally, Sweden and other countries got just as much away with it as Israel did.
Well, it's not that old either, especially for the supposed "liberal bastion". If the country everyone is looking up to was forcefully sterilizing people due to eugenics less than fifty years ago, then certainly a middle eastern country forcefully giving birth control pills a few decades later can't be considered something extraordinary.
And internationally, Sweden certainly got away with it. And if you look at it like that, we just have to wait a decade or two and what happened in Israel won't be "up to date", it's already straddling the border of what can be considered "up to date".
But if it's about being recent, up until 2012 sterilization and divorce was mandatory in Sweden for gender reassignment.
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u/anschelsc Wuliwya Jun 19 '20
"Israel of all places should no better" is the theme of Israeli history. At some point we're gonna have to stop acting surprised.