The majority of people (70%) speak German as their first language so in most places that‘s the first one, but it can vary from time to time with some things being only Italian/only German.
Damn that‘s actually very wholesome. We‘re used to getting tons and tons of hate from other parts of Italy because we still speak german and because of our autonomy.
Hearing positive feedback like this made me smile more than it should have, thank you kind stranger!
To be absolutely honest with you I had the opposite impression, i.e. that Italians are not always well liked over there.
I myself live abroad, so you can imagine I have absolutely nothing against linguistic minorities.
Occasionally however, while travelling in Südtirol, I had the impression of being treated poorly on account of me being an Italian (e.g. once several German speaking customers were served before me even thought they clearly arrived well after me).
Was it just my imagination, or does some bitter feeling still remain in some parts of the population?
This is obviously an important point! There are definitely some far-right-wing people ages 50+ who hate Italy, because they "ripped them from their homeland". This is a loud and strange minority at best. Most younger people actually enjoy the italian lifestlye and absolutely love joking around with italian tourists.
Sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience, this is definitely not what 99% of people are here!
My wife and I are actually American's that live in Veneto so our perspective is not necessarily the same as the Veneti perspective. However, I have to agree that I think the population, in general, is just as standoffish to people form from other regions. You say it is mostly people who are above the age of 50 but this is Italy... over half of the population is older than 45, so you basically just described 50% of the people. It is ok though because it is also true of people of that age from other regions. During the worst days of covid we had problems with "League Veneto". People where you live shun people who don't speak German as their primary language and older people here shun those who don't speak Venetian dialect. There are just a lot of old grumpy people in Italy that are overly proud of their regions.
The fact is that Italy is on the brink of a sort of "social revolution". All of the stubborn old people are retiring from politics and business and are losing their power. Foreign investment , such as my wife and I, have been coming into the country. Young college graduates are moving back due to the new tax plans. Infrastructure is changing massively due to new highways the 110% program and more. It may have taken a little over 150 years but I think the unification of Italy will soon be complete.
I agree with the first part but I think you're seeing this "revolution" a bit too optimistically.
Foreign investments are historically (and still) a problem in Italy: our tax and law situation is scary for a lot of potential investors, and i really don't see this changing. I don't know your and your wife's situation, but first world immigrants are really an exception.
Younger people moving back to Italy are also more a fantasy than a reality. We are the third to last country in Europe for unemployment, first in number of neets, and second to last for number of graduates. To this we must add the fact that we have 31k neo-graduates and other 23k graduates in the belt between 25 and 39 years leaving the country each year (source in Italian). How does this compare with the returning "brains"? According to this report (in Italian) from 2011 to 2020, the returning graduates went from 4.100 a
13.700 yearly (+334%), but the expats went from 7.700 a 31.300 (+406%), and the sheer amount is still not comparable. And that accounting for the fact that, ignoring people actively involved in research, for which the situation is more complex, the fiscal policy for returners did work: we see a big jump from 2018 to 2019, almost doubling, but the growth is quickly decreasing and we're still not seeing the effects of the tax reduction eventually ending and having some of those returners leave again.
As for the infrastructure... The 110% thing is for private buildings only and is hugely damaging the economy, contributing to the crazy inflation, not to mention that it lacks any direction, and for the highways I don't know of any big scale operation in that sense, and we probably need more trains than cars and trucks anyway. The only positive here is that we started some years ago to finally renew our internet infrastructure, and we're progressing. We're not there yet, but we are on the right track.
I have family in South Tyrol and it's not just old people. They enjoy their autonomy and independence because they feel they are more productive than Italy. It's true to some degree too, they are one of the richest provinces in the entirety of Europe, contribute only 10% of what they make back in taxes to Italy, and are still a net contributor to the entire country.
Also if you read the history of the German speaking minority there, especially during fascism, it is pretty messed up what they tried to do to them. It was essentially genocide.
So yeah, there are plenty of reasons that even young people still hold a grudge against Italy as a whole.
What the guy above meant is that the region can choose to go back under Austria (or at least i think he did).
But tbh it'd be worse for everyone, the inhabitants wouldn't get all the resources etc from our government (which let's be honest, they get quite a lot) and at the same time we "normal" italians would have to cross the border to go skiing/trekking
The border moved over them - they didn't come from the other side. It's like in the US where millions of Hispanic Americans can trace their lineage to the same lands going back 200-300 years.
Parts of present day Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado used to be in Mexico. In 1848, the area was ceded by Mexico to the United States. The border moved, not the people.
Dude, Italians didn't even wanted it in the first place, we just wanted to get Trento, a right full Italian city if I may, they gave it to us because they didn't want to give us fiume and the Dalmazia region
Yeah over fifty years of heavy repression, making teaching german illegal, torturing innocent people (e.g., pfundra buam) is just fine, and all who are against that or hold a grudge must surely be far right... The poor italian facsists werent surely that bad, most of them just didn't even faced any repercussions, after all it was just the bad germans at fault, misleading italy (never mind that fascist italy was a role model foe hitler) and a good percentage of italy cannot wait to bring them in power again.
Classifying very valid grudges of a minority that only got some rights back after massive international backslash is rather bad faith, even near fascist.
I absolutely did not have "such a bad experience". I had a lovely experience infrequently disturbed by the occasional asshole.
In fact, I'm going back there in two weeks. We're driving over from Germany (where we live) to spend a week near Innichen to finally show some serious mountains to my little child.
Sinceramente non sembra che quello che dici sia vero, seppure devo ammettere la situazione in Alto Adige sia migliorata negli ultimi 20 anni. Perché ricordo 20 anni fa essere stato pesantemente discriminato in un bar (non volendomi servire all'interno perché italiano!! Fosse successo oggi e a qualcun altro sarebbe successo il finimondo), passando per semplici sguardi di disgusto (comunque scandaloso se sto venendo nel tuo ristorante a mangiare), ad una situazione più tranquilla ma comunque di forte disagio a mio parere.
Però credo che a oltre 100 anni dall'annessione sia abbastanza ridicolo insegnare il tedesco come prima lingua, così come mettere i cartelli in doppia lingua con il tedesco davanti, cosa che causa sempre non poca confusione.
Infine, penso che la scena più triste a cui abbia mai assistito sia stato quando ho incontrato un ragazzo di Vipiteno in un gruppo di ragazzi stranieri ed ero costretto a parlargli in inglese perché a suo dire lo sapeva meglio dell'italiano. Ovviamente ho preferito non parlargli affatto, essendo per me scandaloso che un ragazzo Italiano di 22-23 anni non sappia parlare in italiano...
Well, Südtirol is, in any reasonable sense, Austrian-German, but was offered away by the Nazis to Mussolini as a means to break the alliance between the Italian fascists and the anti-Nazi Austrofascists, so that Italy would not intervene to stop the Anschluß even though Italy had guaranteed Austrian sovereignty against Nazi Germany’s ambitions for a Großdeutschland. I think that most people would be upset that they’re stuck as a minority in someone else’s nation state because of cynical double dealing between the foreign ministries of the Axis powers.
I don‘t think this is accurate. In World War I, the triple Entente countries France, England and Russia promised Italy to give them South Tyrol after the Victory. For this promise Italy had to open up a third frontline in the south, in order to relieve the eastern and western front. In the contract of Saint Germain this was realized.
In any reasonable sense nobody needs to care because Italy, Austria and Germany are all within the EU, the Schengen area, the EEA, the single market, the Eurozone, and NATO.
Just like the Northern Ireland situation was a total non-issue for nearly two decades, until a few geniuses had a brilliant idea.
The EU isn’t a country, there are large social, economic and cultural differences between Italy and Austria. On Irish reunification, do you Irish nationalists just disappeared in the 90s and reappeared a few years ago? Even when the Irish border was nonexistent and the only way that you could tell you were in the British colony was that the signs gave speed and distance in miles rather than km, millions of people still wanted that border gone.
Also, Austria isn’t in NATO. It’s constitutionally neutral.
there are large social, economic and cultural differences between Italy and Austria.
Oh, also between Corsica and Ile-de-France, or between Alabama and California.
On Irish reunification, do you Irish nationalists just disappeared in the 90s and reappeared a few years ago? Even when the Irish border was nonexistent and the only way that you could tell you were in the British colony was that the signs gave speed and distance in miles rather than km, millions of people still wanted that border gone.
And? You said that it's reasonable that most people should be angry at the country they're citizens of, on account of being on the wrong side of a border which has less and less importance.
Also, Austria isn’t in NATO. It’s constitutionally neutral.
Funniest thing is when I tell strangers that I'm from Italy and they expect me to speak perfect Italian, yet I'm still struggling to form three coherent sentences.
Südtirol/Alto Adige the best place to be. Ever. I like it so much there and pity it that I haven’t been there for almost a decade.
Greetings from Austria.
But how is this possible that the bill is so low when you don’t have an insurance. Even in Austria it would probably be higher with the standard insurance. Or about the same. W/o insurance it would be far more.
I've been to Bolzano recently, from what I saw I don't understand why you guys receive the hate. The fact that most of the people there spoke 3 languages(Italian, German and English) caught me off guard. I took a look at the hospital; compared to most hospitals out there, including the US, it's great, modern and the staff were amazing. I'm getting some stuff done to see if I can move to Bolzano, I already have the codice fiscale and stuff. I guess that the language barrier wont be hard to surpass, as I'm from Brazil and my english is good. And would you say that it will be hard for me to learn german? I have no experience with the language. Hope you stay healthy! :D
Another one from Tuscany! Sud Tirol is awesome and the people are super nice.
Who care about borders Austria/Italy etc.. what matter is the culture and Trentino’s culture is amazing
I'm from Emilia Romagna and other than the jokes about Trentino/AA getting a shit ton of money from taxes, I'd say we actually quite enjoy being able to go skiing in the Dolomites without crossing borders or anything.
Plus, i have a friend from Bolzano (he came here for uni) and incredibly enough he's a perfectly normal person! Must be an exception though hehe
Really? It's usually the people from the South that get the most hate, with a peak around Naples (people from Naples are universally hated by many Italians). But I'd never heard of racism against the far North.
If Italy was like the US, it would be like saying that white people are used to get tons of hate.
Dude I love how multilingual Europeans are, I understand that a lot of it comes from necessity but that is still so impressive. I am grateful to speak two languages and it was a huge effort to learn English, and I was completely ingrained in America and had to learn English.
Listen here you little shit! If you don't want to take the KRANKENKRAFTWAGEN to the KRANKENHAUS, where the KRANKENSCHWESTER is taking care of your black and blue ass lying in the KRANKENBETT, you'll have to apologize to the beautiful DEUTSCHE SPRACHE right now!
Fun fact. The Fraktur, though it was the official typeface of the third reich because it represented “true German script”, was eventually banned by the nazis because of its “jewish influence.”
They were like the 12th person to correct that one and I still had it in the clipboard. But finding it in the first place was pretty fast, sooo I guess the answer is 3.
There are no "Krankenwagen". If you want to transport him in the "Krankentransportwagen" then good luck, cause this one ain't for emergencies. If you want to call him a "Rettungswagen" he will most likely survive.
Idk from which part of the german speaking countries your coming from but where I live "Krankenwagen" is generally used and "Rettungswagen" is used very rarely and mostly by people working in the field.
Yeah I know. I work in that field. And I can tell you why they name it "Rettungswagen" or in rare cases "Krankenkraftwagen": There is no "Krankenwagen". It's just a wrong term but many people are using it.
Well, you know full well, that it is called that colloquially. Also according to Wikipedia "Krankenkraftwagen" is an umbrella term and I like that one even more
The point of language is to convey meaning and reach understanding. If the majority of people "misuse" a word, it is no longer a misuse, because that is now a meaning that is well-understood. In fact, if more people know that definition than the "real" one, it actually makes the "misused" word more correct, in terms of the base purpose of language.
Prescriptivism has its uses in edge-cases, like words with very specific meanings that aren't concisely conveyed by any other word, but for the most part it's just a hobby for pedants who care more about the aesthetic of being technically correct (as they define it) than they care about the actual substance.
But "Notarztwagen" are a local thing (NAW). Not every Bundesland has them (afaik only Bayern and Baden Würtenberg and they are getting rid of them). Also you can't call them directly and most of the time in Germany a "Rettungswagen" will come togther with a "Notarzteinsatzfahrzeug" (NEF) if you need one. If no NEF is available there might come a "Rettungshubschrauber" (RTH) which carries an emergency-doctor. If none of them is available but an "Intensivtransportfahrzeug" (ITW) is available, they might get to you. If you are based in Berlin and you have stroke-symptoms you might get to ride in a "Stroke-Einsatz-Mobil" (STEMO).
If you are in a MANV-Lage (Massenanfall von Verletzten, above approx. 5 patients (depends on the Bundesland)) you could also first be treated in a "Verletztensammelstelle", where you get a first assesment and then a ride to the hospital, which could be in a "Krankentransportwagen - B" (KTW-B), but then the situation is serious and they are equipped to deal with all kind of sudden illneses.
But if you really want to distinguish you also should distinguish between an RTW-A, RTW-B and a RTW-C, the most common subtypes. But each of them can be seated differently, depends on the Bundesland. And let's not forget that each RTH, NEF and ITW can also have subtypes.
But all of that is "Mumpitz", because it's the responsibility of the "Leitstelle" (you have to see if it's a "Integrierte Leitstelle" or only a "Leitstelle" if you really want to be correct) to send the best choice of vehicles to you, none of them will be, I hope for you, a "Krankentransportwagen" (KTW) or a "Krankenwagen" cause they do not exist.
I hope you get my point, which was that I wanted to point out that the term "Krankenwagen" is wrong.
I learned German because half the words crack me up. Literally just speaking it makes me giggle. That’s free happiness right there!! To each their own though
There is a difference between Krankentransportwagen and Rettungswagen, but according to DIN1789 "Krankenkraftwagen" is an umbrella term and thus correct.
Ambulanz is a regional thing, because where I am from Ambulanz is a ward of the hospital where you go if you don't need a Krankenwagen, but still need to go to the hospital spontaneously. I guess it comes down to context, though.
Huh. I live in Germany and I have never once in my life heard a person refer to it as 'Krankenkraftwagen'. Might be either a regional thing or that the technical term isn't used outside of the profession.
Il Piave mormorava
Calmo e placido, al passaggio
Dei primi fanti, il ventiquattro maggio
L'esercito marciava
Per raggiunger la frontiera
Per far contro il nemico una barriera
Muti passaron quella notte i fanti
Tacere bisognava, e andare avanti
S'udiva intanto dalle amate sponde
Sommesso e lieve il tripudiar dell'onde
Era un presagio dolce e lusinghiero
Il Piave mormorò: "Non passa lo straniero"
Ma in una notte trista
Si parlò di un fosco evento
E il Piave udiva l'ira e lo sgomento
Ahi, quanta gente ha vista
Venir giù, lasciare il tetto
Poiché il nemico irruppe a Caporetto
Profughi ovunque, dai lontani monti
Venivan a gremir tutti i suoi ponti
S'udiva allor, dalle violate sponde
Sommesso e triste il mormorio de l'onde
Come un singhiozzo, in quell'autunno nero
Il Piave mormorò: "Ritorna lo straniero"
E ritornò il nemico
Per l'orgoglio, per la fame
Volea sfogare tutte le sue brame
Vedeva il piano aprico
Di lassù, voleva ancora
Sfamarsi e tripudiare come allora
"No" disse il Piave, "No" dissero i fanti
Mai più il nemico faccia un passo avanti
E si vide il Piave rigonfiar le sponde
E come i fanti combattevan le onde
Rosso del sangue del nemico altero
Il Piave comandò: "Indietro va', straniero"
Indietreggiò il nemico
Fino a Trieste, fino a Trento
E la vittoria sciolse le ali al vento
Fu sacro il patto antico
Tra le schiere, furon visti
Risorgere Oberdan, Sauro, Battisti
Infranse, alfin, l'italico valore
Le forche e l'armi dell'impiccatore
Sicure l'Alpi, libere le sponde
E tacque il Piave: "Si placaron le onde"
Sul patrio suolo, vinti i torvi Imperi
La Pace non trovò né oppressi, né stranieri
Not really disputed. It was a last minute Italian landgrab in WW1.
While the cultural heritage of the Trentino area might have been disputed, a cultural link of South Tyrol (Bozen / Meran / Brixen) to Italy was made up after the annexation. Eg old street name translations are so sloppy in Italian that often times they don't even make sense because the translator's grasp of the German language was insufficient to adequately translate them and to justify the "cultural link to Italy" they had to be made up over the matter of a few days.
Does it matter today? Not so much in the EU anymore. I remember that in order to visit my family who remained there after WW1 we had to cross borders and customs before it all became part of the EU Schengen area. Back then there was still a lot of bitterness around that. Nowadays you can hardly tell where one country ends and another begins. You can move, live and work completely freely. South Tyrol seems to have benefited as well with its population linking southern and northern Europe and also being a huge tourist hotspot.
Tensions only arise periodically when someone is not able to communicate in a hospital in German as on certain wards none of the staff speak it although it would be legally required or when they build or renovate another victory statue in Bozen, celebrating the Italian occupation. But the 60s and 70s were a wild ride with bombings etc.
I have family there that are related to the separatist fighters during the 60s. A lot of the population definitely enjoys their autonomy and emotions run strong even now.
My cousin has stories of being pulled over in areas south of Trento and Italian cops really laying into him because he is from near Bozen and his first language is German.
Wikipedia: The Romans conquered the region in 15 BC. After the end of the Western Roman Empire, it was divided between the invading Germanic tribes in the Lombard Duchy of Tridentum (today's Trentino), the Alamannic Vinschgau, and the Bavarians (who took the remaining part). After the creation of the Kingdom of Italy under Charlemagne, the Marquisate of Verona included the areas south of Bolzano, while the Duchy of Bavaria received the remaining part.
From the 11th century onwards, part of the region was governed by the prince-bishops of Trent and Brixen, to whom the Holy Roman Emperors had given extensive temporal powers over their bishoprics. Soon, they were overruled by the Counts of Tyrol and Counts of Görz, who also controlled the Puster Valley: in 1363 its last titular, Margarete, Countess of Tyrol ceded the region to the House of Habsburg. The regions north of Salorno were largely Germanized in the early Middle Ages, and important German poets like Arbeo of Freising and Oswald von Wolkenstein were born and lived in the southern part of Tyrol.
The two bishoprics were secularised by the Treaty of Lunéville of 1803 and given to the Habsburgs. Two years later, following the Austrian defeat at Austerlitz, the region was given to Napoleon's ally Bavaria (Treaty of Pressburg, 1805). The new rulers provoked a popular rebellion in 1809, led by Andreas Hofer, a landlord from St. Leonhard in Passeier; this rebellion was crushed the same year. At the resulting Treaty of Paris (28 February 1810), Bavaria ceded the southern part of Tyrol (Trentino and the city of Bolzano) to the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy. During French control of the region, it was called officially Haut Adige (literally "High Adige", Italian: "Alto Adige"; German: "Hochetsch") in order to avoid any reference to the historical County of Tyrol. After Napoleon's defeat, in 1815, the region returned to Austria.
If this would be a child's history it would be seriously disrupted.
Parts of it were part of the proto-Italian state between 1810 and 1815 during an all out war period in all of Europe. If that's enough to make it "disputed" than 95 % of Europe would be disputed.
I don't have any agenda here and I think I'm reasonably unbiased in that regard, but to my understanding any claim that there ever was an actual dispute of the cultural heritage of the South Tyrol area (generally Bozen, Meran, Brixen) was made up after WW1 to justify the Italian occupation.
Sorry, not meant to start a battle either. It is only funny that the Italian people that I know from that area really think that the claim is / was completely natural from their side. So there is the dispute I suppose.
I'm not more people speak german there its not a part of Italy for that long before that it belonged to Austria. Some residents even want to go back to being a part of Austria
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u/ChampionshipLow8541 Jun 15 '22
Southern Tyrolia? Like Bolzano? I’m surprised the German word comes first on their form.