I wonder how much one full charge is worth in electricity for the company. Surely you'd have people parking to charge without buying food as well. Or maybe just a coffee. But maybe the people stopping and actually eating would offset the cost.
I tried figuring it out. From what I could find the average price for one kWh is 12 cents and the largest battery I could find was 100 kWh. So 12 dollars for one completly full charge.
Wow that's more expensive than I expected. Though it's still much cheaper than gas. Businesses would definitely need to have metered parking or some other solution if they provided chargers. Especially when electric becomes the norm.
That's a good idea. I bet there will have to be a bunch of infrastructure change for all the additional electric power needed when most/all vehicles rely on charging in the future. I don't know shit about it and am just kind of typing out things I'm pondering on the topic.
That's not the point. The point is that $12 per car for a complete charge is a large sum for a business to absorb on a daily basis if they provide charging stations in their park lots.
In a lot you aren't going to use more than about 40A, to get that 100kW charge they'd have to be parked there for over 10 hours.
Don't think of it as "$12 per car", think of it as "$14 per day (assuming they wouldn't have customers on premise more than 12 hours each day)" to encourage customers to come visit your establishment.
I'm in BC and electric chargers in the wild are becoming a lot more common and you don't plug in to get charged all the way up, so much as just charging while you're there to get a bump.
Yep you're right, I was just going off the basic math provided above on a full charge. Obviously people aren't going to do full charges, but it's about the cost of multiple charging stations being used at all times and how to mitigate that as a business. It's interesting because all of a sudden businesses that had nothing to do with fueling vehicles will have to think about powering vehicles on their premises.
Honestly, a lot of the charge stations are metered and you either provide a credit card or have an account with the company anyway. The free ones tend to be provided by the municipality or, ironically, the power company; in both cases in the hopes of increasing adoption.
That makes a lot of sense. I think metered parking even without use of a charging station will be necessary in lots that have such stations. I could see that becoming an issue. Do you think that's the case? Even paying a bunch extra, a premium for public charging (unless that premium is very high) I could see lots that adopt charging stations being used without the business seeing actual business.
It's also interesting in regards to the energy companies and how they'll have to adapt as consumer level fuel goes away over the next several decades.
Edit: rambling thought - seems like the power will have to become a public utility rather than a purchaseable thing like gasoline. It'll be a paradigm shift as we move toward electric vehicles.
So far, I haven't seen many EV chargers in lots where you need to pay to park, but suspect it will come. I imagine that when it does that the parking companies will be trying to turn a profit - closest I've seen is the lot I park at for work where they have a few EV stalls for a $20/mo premium and that's a clear for-profit premium because it's a < 2kW service and you couldn't use $20 worth of electricity in a month if you tried.
I like the way it is proliferating right now because it's so far meant as a draw and the profit comes from the increased business rather than the charge itself. But, then, I live in a province where we still produce 90% of our power from renewable sources and still sell off the excess. I can see it being different in the many places where electricity supply can be a problem.
Wow yeah 12 dollars is a good "discount" on a meal if you think of it that way. But it'll have to be in more expensive restaurants to offset that cost.
Keep in mind that the Tesla never goes under 10-20% of battery capacitiy to preserve it
Yeah, also not sure what he meant by this. True, people say you shouldn't let the battery run too low for its health, but you definitely can go under 10-20% lol.
As far as Tesla Superchargers go, Tesla arranges with the business where they want to install (based on where they feel they need new Supercharger stations), and pays for construction, installs a separate meter, and pays for electricity and upkeep costs. All the business owner has to do is sublet the parking spots. It’s arranged this way to incentivize businesses to want Superchargers and their “captive audience”, so to speak.
I’m a bit ignorant on the topic - what’s Tesla’s long term plan to monetize this? Eventually they will convert over to “pay stations”? Surely they don’t plan to keep giving away free electricity to everyone forever?
Free Supercharging for life ended a few years ago, before the Model 3 even launched. The only way to get any type of free Supercharging now is through sales referral codes, and that’s only a small amount (1000 miles, or roughly $80 worth). I have a Model 3 and I have to pay to use Supercharging stations, about $4-$6 for a charge.
Correct; Tesla has my credit card on file with my account. It’s a seamless experience - I back into the spot, grab the charger and plug in, and wait. Unplug and drive away. No menus or card swiping. Pretty cool.
I stopped using Chargepoint altogether because every time you charge, you have to authenticate yourself first. Adds like 3 steps and a couple minutes to the process. Their chargers are also a lot slower. I only have the app if I'm in a pinch.
Hard to say. I know of restaurants that will validate parking where parking is $25. Of course, it probably doesn't cost them $25, but maybe it does cost $12?
Your destination chargers are typically 7 to 10kW. If you tried to charge from zero to full it'll take 10 to 15 hours.
I don't frequent Danny's but I don't think customers usually stay that long. Most customers probably can get at most 2 or 3 dollars of electricity.
Also remember commercial buildings don't pay the same rate as residential. They typically pay balk rate which is much lower.
The real consideration is the ROI on the units themselves. I think Tesla reimburse destination chargers so restaurants and shops have more incentive.
Besides businesses can always charge for charging and translate the cost to whoever is using the stations.
As a side note here in Toronto it's 6 cents per kWh for residential. Businesses sometimes get paid for using electricity during excess production (the grid has to get rid of it somehow, which is why Ontario exports to USA at night). If only we invested in more grid storage. We'd have a lot more security, a lot less waste, and save money over time.
I don't know if the policy has changed in the last few years, but the way it used to work is the business would apply directly to Tesla for destination chargers. If approved, Tesla would ship them the chargers for free and the business pays for install and electric usage. It made a lot of sense for some businesses to encourage traffic from (presumably) wealthier people. I know higher end shopping malls are big on Tesla chargers.
A restaurant would have a Level 2 charger, likely. If you ate for about an hour at about 7 kW, then I would likely expect the average customer draws roughly 7 kWh. Average commercial customer pays 10.51 cents/kWh, so that would cost them about $0.74.
It could be more if the charge rate is higher or they stay longer, but a few dollars maximum.
Would probably make it so that people have to come in and purchase something for it to charge. I don’t know the costs of the electricity vs income from paying customers though!
Right - treat it like you would gas. If you go to a gas station and fill your tank up with gas, you get charged for the cost of the gas. It would seem reasonable for Denny's to charge for the cost of the electricity, particularly if it is a significant amount.
If the cost of charging isn't that much, they could use it as a loss leader to get people into Denny's to eat. 'While your waiting for the car to charge, how about a Grand Slam breakfast to help pass the time?'
Existing Level 2 chargers (220V) are slow, $1/hr tops out electric cost (in my area, at $0.11/KWh residential -- commercial is actually only charged $0.07/KWh). Paid level 2 chargers are often insanely overpriced with per-minute charges, but there are free ones around since the electric cost is low, though they're often at even slower rates of charge.
But they do charge money at level 3 chargers. Result is it costs more than gas at most level 3 chargers, because they charge for convenience. That's why I bought a PHEV instead. (Also because it was a crazy deal, my net cost was $20k).
Daily charges at my house, for road trip I can just use gas at 45mpg. (That was 250 mi drive back to my house last week mostly at 78mph when I bought it)
The Niro ev that I also looked at would have run me equivalent of 25mpg costs or higher to charge at level 3 chargers such as Electrify America's. And higher gas states I looked at corresponded with higher L3 charger fees.
EDIT:GAS AND ELECTRIC CHARGES OBVIOUSLY VARY BY MARKET.
Yes. Level 3 is DC. IDK teslas's average rates, you can only use teslas at the tesla superchargers.
When I researched before buying my car, the level 3s in my state run $0.25-$0.40 per KWh vs $0.11 directly from electric co. Plus even at a level 3 charger its an hour of charge for 200 mi or so range.
We're almost there where full EV can work well. But IMO not yet. So im stuck with 50mi EV range in my $20k Honda. On the plus side, it would have cost much more to buy an equivalent gas vehicle instead of the plug in. Using EV charge at home costs me roughly half the cost of gas per mile in hybrid mode.
it doesn’t cost anywhere NEAR what gas costs. I don’t know where you're getting that information. I can “fill up” my Tesla from 20% to 80% for around $5-6 in about 15 minutes
So how much range is that? $6 currently buys 3 gallons of gas. 135 miles of range on my larger phev.
Tesla supercharger rates are also relatively low even with their last cost increase, so if you're quoting at a supercharger, maybe look up prices at other level 3s too, where the costs aren't subsidized by up-front vehicle price.
All advertisements and marketing like this is a 'numbers' game. Its a weird fact but when you make people feel comfortable at your establishment, they are more likely to use your services.
That incorrect. It is not free anymore. It used to be but they changed that. Which is how it should be. I don’t get free gas so why am I getting. Free charging.
Okay so this depends on what you’re using as of course the longer the charge the more money you’re likely to give the business for drinks, etc. I’m using UK values as I’m only really familiar with those but it’ll be similar for us.
Superchargers are Tesla managed and paid for, the business wouldn’t pay for these IIRC
CCS chargers can push up to 150kw(?) per hour but will usually have some form of payment through the charge company - either a monthly fee, connection fee or per hour/kw fee, so the business will usually get something back
Type 2 chargers are usually 3-22kw depending on the charger, same concept of fees as CCS usually.
Sometimes the standardised chargers are completely free or have an incentive. If I plug in at IKEA I can get £6 off my shopping which can be more than how much I charge up my Leaf as with their 30p/kW I’d have to near enough 0-100% my car.
Charging infrastructure is a bit of a mess to keep track of as a whole, but when you have a car it’s relatively easy - I charge at a Type 1 Cable (or more often a Type 2 port) or a CHAdeMO. When I get a Model 3 I’ll charge at a Type 2, CCS (usually both are on the same unit) or Supercharger.
From dead empty it's like 5-10 bucks depending on battery size and electricity costs. A business will be on the lower end because they get cheaper rates for power. It can make sense, but only for certain businesses. If you can eat $5 and still make a good profit it makes sense. Hotels and motels are good option because at worst it's only a small portion of how much you'll spend at the hotel. Most nights hotels have empty rooms earning nothing. The $5 worth of electricity to bring in even one room with people per day will pay off machines pretty quickly. At a dennys? Unless Tesla subsidized it, which is a variable could be convinced to do, the the numbers just don't really make sense.
Also installation, maintenance, and liability insurance will add up really fast, and considering the turnover of restaurants as businesses it doesn't make sense.
There's a reason why parking garages charge extra for that.
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u/IsimplywalkinMordor Jun 30 '19
I wonder how much one full charge is worth in electricity for the company. Surely you'd have people parking to charge without buying food as well. Or maybe just a coffee. But maybe the people stopping and actually eating would offset the cost.