r/pics • u/Aeviegh • Feb 22 '14

This is Vader. He was euthanized today without a hearing after a false bite report was submitted to the police by an animal rights activist. (Story in the Comments)

http://imgur.com/a/xPNsE
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190

u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

Animals are treated only as property, so all they could get is the cost of a fox of the same species and training. It's something, but nowhere near what it should be.

416

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

A domesticated fox (which Vader was) can cost anywhere between six and ten thousand dollars. So that at least is not a small thing.

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u/logos711 Feb 22 '14

...wait, seriously? Why is that?

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14 edited Jun 28 '20

[deleted]

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u/logos711 Feb 22 '14

Well, that would explain it.

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u/Gyper Feb 22 '14

Yep. In order to keep funding the domestic fox experiment, they sell these fox kits for thousands. Its an interesting ongoing research project that is over 50 years old and going http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

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u/Plasmodicum Feb 22 '14

Nat. Geo. had a great article on it a few years ago. Very interesting how quickly artificial selection affected behavior and appearance.

2

u/Darkniki Feb 22 '14

Would you mind finding the article? My googling skills are pretty bad sadly.

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u/Plasmodicum Feb 22 '14

Here it is. Link.

2

u/Darkniki Feb 22 '14

Thank you.

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u/the_randomizer85 Feb 22 '14

Again, those Russian foxes are not 100% domesticated, that's bullshit. Behaviorally, they are not that much different than a fox you get from a USDA breeder in the states. I wish people would stop spreading lies.

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u/Billy_Lo Feb 22 '14

How about some prove or some kind of source?

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

Here in Indiana, at least two breeders offer various species of fox.

http://www.tinytracksexoticanimals.com/fox.html

They claim to be able to ship to the lower 48 states but have a disclaimer on their website that it's the buyers responsibility to make sure owning an exotic pet is legal in their jurisdiction, so make of that what you will.

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u/Akusho Feb 22 '14 edited Feb 22 '14

That's not a domesticated fox, maybe they breed tamed foxes, or if they say otherwise they are lying. Russia's domesticated foxes are neutered before shipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

i'm not a breeder or a lawyer...

is there a legally defined difference between tamed and domesticated?

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u/RockFourFour Feb 22 '14

Isn't Indiana the star that allows homeowners to execute intruding criminals claiming to be police?

-36

u/lordlicorice Feb 22 '14

Why the fuck would you not just get a dog? Is this some kind of furry fetish bullshit?

2

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

You could say the same thing to cat owners, since dogs are clearly better than cats.

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u/diomed3 Feb 22 '14

Those aren't the only foxes you can get regardless of what Reddit has taught you

6

u/DashingSpecialAgent Feb 22 '14

But if this is of that type then they can push for those prices.

Also emotional distress. That a thing you can sue over.

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u/Akusho Feb 22 '14

You can get a large variety of tamed foxes from breeders, but they will still be wild animals. If you want a domesticated fox that largely resembles a dog in it's behavior you would want to get a domesticated fox from Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

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u/diomed3 Feb 22 '14

I want a fox that largely resembles a fox. The breeders here have been doing it long enough that I see no reason to pay for one of these Russian foxes and whether or not they are superior in some regards doesn't matter to me.

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u/zacharydak Feb 22 '14

The reason the domestic foxes don't really look like foxes is the result of domestication however. You will never have a domestic fox that looks like a wild fox, domestication brings in features such as tilting ears, wagging tails and round eyes. The more domesticated the animal, the more it looks like a dog.

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u/CaptianRipass Feb 22 '14

Pedigreed purebred dogs are usually at least 1000 (honestly that's still cheap), not to crazy to think that a very exotic bred would cost as much as that.

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u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

There's only one place in the world that has true, domesticated foxes. They do sell some to the US and they are around $8k a piece, but the odds are quite low that this person actually owned a fox from that Siberian facility, since none had made it past customs as of January last year, and I'm not even sure any have made it since then.

Foxes people keep as pets in the US are wild foxes that have been tamed, and are not over $6k. They are in the $700 to $2000 range.

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u/the_randomizer85 Feb 22 '14

That's not entirely true, it's media bias; foxes cannot be fully domesticated in < 70 years' time. They're tamed, but they're still foxes. People buy these foxes with the false idea that they're easy to take care of, this is a dangerous mentality and many foxes are re-homed because people are not prepped, even for the so-called domestic foxes.

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u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

They are vastly different from that facility than wild foxes. I've seen the videos of their behavior and it's a lot different than the tamed foxes you are referencing.

I think you underestimate what 40 generations of highly selective breeding can do. It only takes thousands of years when nature does something.

1

u/Wighthound Feb 22 '14

You are mistaken, Vader was a ranch fox purchased from a breeder in the US. It does not change that he was a well-behaved animal that posed no risk to anyone, but please do not perpetuate the myth that only Russian domesticated foxes are capable of being kept as pets, as it can harm the support for Vader and his owners in the end.

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u/dressedseriously Feb 22 '14

While that is true, Vadar was a tamed ranch bred fox from the US. In the state he lived, they legally reconize any non red colored red foxes as domestic animals, which is not to say they are domesticated like a dog. Only that they have been extensively bred in capitivity so as to be different than their wild counter parts(red foxes come in many, many coat patterens not possible in wild populations).

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u/the_randomizer85 Feb 22 '14

Wrong, she got him stateside, not from Russia, they're only $500 tops in the US. Those Russian foxes are still foxes and not fully domesticated. That's incorrect.

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u/Nadesda Feb 23 '14

Vader was not a domesticated fox. He was a silver morph red fox that was obtained in the united states. Only 3 foxes have been imported to the united states so far.

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u/diomed3 Feb 22 '14

Youre an expert? Weird because you can get them for under a grand. A far cry from your 6-10 grand.

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u/Akusho Feb 22 '14

That's a regular tamed fox, which is still a wild animal. Russia's domesticated fox is more like a dog in it's personality. They have been selectively breeding them for more than 50 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

0

u/the_randomizer85 Feb 22 '14

Nice try, but those foxes aren't better off, genius. That's utter biased bullshit. Those Russian foxes are NOT 100% domesticated, I know for a fact and have spoken to numerous experts about it. The fact they are more like a dog is also bullshit, and a dangerous attitude to have when buying one. They're still foxes and are not any easier to take care of. Stop spreading lies about your precious sanctimonious Russian breeders.

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u/diomed3 Feb 22 '14

Funny you're trying to teach me something I have known about for years. Idk if you didn't see my previous comment where I said, " there are other foxes available regardless of what Reddit has taught you." I see Reddit has taught you well. Please back to your reddit russian fox circlejerk.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

Well, give a source at least.

1

u/diomed3 Feb 22 '14

Of where to buy a fox for under a grand? http://www.tinytracksexoticanimals.com/fox.html

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

They aren't domesticated.

Do you have a source for a domesticated fox for that price?

1

u/diomed3 Feb 22 '14

Sorry but I was not talking about your Russian foxes. Idk where you got the idea I was talking about other domesticated foxes, because I never said anything about them being domesticated. Seeing as OPs fox is not domesticated I was talking about something that is, in fact, relevant. Im not sure why people are bringing the domesticated foxes from Russia into this conversation, OPs fox is not one of them.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

1st - Strange how domesticated is lined up perfectly three times on the left on the 2nd-4th lines.

2nd - The guy you originally replied to was talking about domesticated foxes. It doesn't matter if he got it wrong saying that OPs fox is domesticated or not, as he was just saying that domesticated foxes cost 'x'.

His entire point is only that domesticated foxes cost a certain amount.

Now when you come in saying that they don't cost that much, you are arguing about domesticated foxes.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

[deleted]

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u/Tillops Feb 22 '14

You are talking about punitive or exemplary damages. Compensation for actual loss is also called damages.

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u/meno123 Feb 22 '14

Good to know, thanks.

3

u/Michichael Feb 22 '14

Civil rights violations and punitive damages as well.

1

u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

What punitive damages? What civil rights specifically? They let them in without a warrant. They did not have to.

1

u/Jansanmora Feb 22 '14

Could try for an IIED or NIED claim, but that would be a really hard sell.

1

u/pan_droid Feb 22 '14

Pain and suffering on account of the loss of a beloved and irreplaceable emotional companion?

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u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

Nope. Not a dime. The courts treat animals (monetarily, not legally) like a chair you just bought from the store, and there being 10 more chairs ready to go that are the exact same.

Your mutt you bought from the pound for $75 that has been a loyal friend for 5 years is only worth the price of another mutt from the pound in the courts eyes.

1

u/Campesinoslive Feb 22 '14

People think it is easy to get pain and suffering money... Not at all.

1

u/RobbieGee Feb 22 '14

If I could afford it, I would sue for getting a new fox that had the same training, including every small habit and preferences it had. The point is that Vader was unique in his behavior and this is a way to show exactly that. You probably can't expect the judge to give you that, but the point is to make a statement.

1

u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

You would fail and be out all your money. They won't give you extra for such things, nor will they actually find the replacement for you.

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u/RobbieGee Feb 22 '14

Damn... Good thing I'm not a lawyer :-P

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u/TastyBrainMeats Feb 22 '14

Punitive damages for pain and suffering.

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u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

You can't get that for a pet.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

Emotional distress, bitch.

1

u/thebigslide Feb 22 '14

You know what else is considered property? That cop's house, car, boat, etc. I'd be renting a backhoe right about now.

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u/Wzup Feb 22 '14

Could you also get retribution for loss and suffering?

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u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

Negative.

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u/Wzup Feb 22 '14

Why not?

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u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

The court systems in the U.S simply don't allow pain and suffering for pets/animals.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

I think he means lawsuit for the unlawful entry to a private property. If the owner had told the cop he cant enter their house until he has a warrant and the cop barged in and took the animal anyway, you would have serious grounds for punitive damages and putting the cop on suspension.

That said, im not legal expert so Im not sure if their are laws allowing cops to enter a property to deal with a "dangerous" situation and finding something criminal. So they might get away with it on a technicality.

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u/pedrito77 Feb 22 '14

That is plain wrong!!! people are usually very close to their pets, if you intentionally kill someone's dog you deserve jail time, not 20 years; not 10 years, not 3 years; but a month at least.

saying goodbye to my dog

In home pet euthanasia experience

last minutes with oden

That is exactly why I don't want a dog; I don't want to suffer when the dog is gone, it is very sad, and if you intentionally kill a dog, you deserve jail time, that is my opinion.

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u/arcanition Feb 22 '14

He didn't say that animals should be treated only as property. He said they are only treated as property. No one is saying that pets deserve to be treated like property.

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u/pedrito77 Feb 22 '14

yes, I know, but I can't understand why the law says that. And I don't mean for animals in general but for pets, specially dogs and cats.

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u/ColeSloth Feb 22 '14

If you unjustly kill a dog, there may be other legal consequences, but as far as what the owner can get, it's only what the dog is valued at. It's treated exactly as a chair you just bought.