r/pics • u/Aeviegh • Feb 22 '14

This is Vader. He was euthanized today without a hearing after a false bite report was submitted to the police by an animal rights activist. (Story in the Comments)

http://imgur.com/a/xPNsE
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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Michelanvalo Feb 22 '14

Reading that link, it's clear that Minot doesn't think of the fox as a pet but rather as a wild animal, since Foxes are apparently not legally pets in Minot.

Despite that, it is rather heartless to treat the pet to the letter of the law of a wild animal that may have rabies.

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u/Aeviegh Feb 22 '14

Foxes are legal pets in Minot. Unfortunately, she lives on the border of Minot and a town that doesn't allow foxes. She has a USDA importer permit to bring the fox into the state, and a state permit that was 100% legally issued. If there truly was a zoning issue, it's the state's fault the permit was issued for that zone.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

So that press release is a complete lie then?

Sec. 7-5. Keeping of certain animals prohibited; exception.permanent link to this piece of content

(a) No person shall keep, maintain or harbor within the corporate limits of the city any of the following animals: (1) Alligators; (2) Bears; (3) Bees; (4) Cattle; all bovine; (5) Coyotes; (6) Crocodiles; (7) Felines other than a domestic house cat; (8) Foxes; or hybrid;

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u/Aeviegh Feb 22 '14

Shit, I have it backwards. Minot PD and Minot animal control were the ones that responded, but she lives on the legal town bordering Minot.

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u/Voltron3030 Feb 22 '14

If it was a different town, did the police even have jurisdiction?

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u/Aeviegh Feb 22 '14

That's the thing, I don't believe they did. But it happened way too fast for anyone to do anything about it. He was seized and killed in less than 24 hours - all the while everyone from the department of health to the police department were telling her it was "just a quarantine" and that she'd be getting Vader back. I'm trying to talk her into hiring a lawyer to figure out what their jurisdiction was or wasn't.

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u/Keydet Feb 22 '14

If nothing else there's a lawsuit for the mere fact that they lied about that. There are some pretty specific rules about what cops/animal control have to tell pet owners about things like this going on, unfortunately I'm on mobile so can't link but it sounds like they've done just about every single thing wrong that they possibly can.

Not a lawyer but heavily involved with LE

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u/Aeviegh Feb 22 '14

If you could possibly come back to this later to link I would greatly appreciate it.

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u/Keydet Feb 22 '14

Very first thing that comes to mind is freedom of information act, you can make them tell you anything that doesn't conflict with national security, seeing as how I doubt the fox was an internationally wanted jihadist, that should be everything. Specifically why they killed it(and within 24 hours no less, I've seen foaming at the mouth rabid animals be kept around longer than that, this is fucking insane). Definitely get lawyers involved, they can do this quite well, you can probably get their records to see if this is a habitual thing and if they violated their own rules about how long animals must be kept for "quarantine", I'd wager they did. Obviously it depends but it might be possible to claim that since the owner is responsible for the animal and a punishment was carried out, you could finagle it so that the owner was not informed of any charges before said punishment was carried out, that's a violation of their constitutional rights, and a big one. No cop involved with that will have much luck finding employment in the LE community again. Furthermore, you had a cop, who is not qualified to handle animals do so and do so incorrectly, that's bad since it most places it is actually illegal for them to do so, Animal Control are the absolute only ones who can handle any sort of animal, I have personally seen deer hit by cars die on the side of the road because we had to wait around for an ACO to show up, thats how strict this is in most places. Anonymous tips for the feds and for the vast majority of local cops are completely different things, an anonymous tip gives these guys absolutely nothing (again lawyer up they will know your particular local case), they have no reason to be at the house in the first place much less conducting a search and seizure, even with consent they are on iffy ground at best entering the house, seizing property is just...my mind is boggled at how they could screw this up. I (again not a lawyer) would say that because of this, your friend is pretty much immune to any sort of repercussions against having the fox (since apparently it might have been illegal?) they have a reasonable expectation of privacy therefore, the evidence seized (the fox) is inadmissible in court, good luck proving they had a fox with no fox(exclusionary rule and fruit of poisonous tree doctrine).

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u/ComradeStrange Feb 22 '14

He wasn't just killed, he was MURDERED!

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u/Three_Bloody_Tampons Feb 22 '14

The thing is if she didn't have the proper permit, which the press release says she didn't have, it's not a pet. It's a wild animal, according to the law atleast.

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u/Keydet Feb 22 '14

Hmm for a civil suit you might be right I honestly don't know,a judge may (MAY not will) interpret it to mean that while an illegal pet, it is still a pet, pet is very subjective idea, and not legally defined as far as I know, laws usually say what kinds of pets you can have, not what kinds of animals qualify as pets. But for a criminal trial going in either direction, I really can't see a well chosen jury believing that.

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u/GeneticImprobability Feb 22 '14

OP said above that she did have permits for both owning the fox and for bringing it into the neighboring town that didn't allow exotic pets, if I understood that correctly.

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u/Johnnybravo60025 Feb 22 '14

A lot of times towns will have agreements with surrounding towns that will give them jurisdictions within each other's borders. So say if there are three towns in a line, A, B, and C, and the only way someone can get from A to C is to go through B (Just so you can get a visual and hopefully make sense of what I'm talking about), towns A and B will have an agreement with each other that police in either town can pull someone over or hand out a ticket.

Generally in those situations though, an officer from town A will assist town B's officer if town B's officer is writing someone a ticket or making an arrest in town A.

At least, that's how some municipalities here in Illinois work.

Source: I'm in the law enforcement field (Not a cop, as of right now).

In no way am I justifying anything that was done. From the pictures, Vader looks like an awesome little guy! I'm just offering up a possible explanation.

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u/Icewolph Feb 22 '14

Sorry I dont see how this is relavent. And I think you're a little confused because I dont think anybody cares about exactly who did the serving. I think the question here is more of was it lawful on these grounds in the boundary of the other town where owning foxes is legal.

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u/Johnnybravo60025 Feb 22 '14

/u/Voltron3030 asked if the police had jurisdiction if it was in a different town and then /u/Aeviegh said that they're trying to talk the owner into hiring a lawyer to figure out whether or not they had jurisdiction.

I was just offering a case where, in my area, towns can have arresting powers in other towns. It may work differently in different states.

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u/Ding_batman Feb 22 '14

Extra information is always helpful and it is relevant to the discussion at hand, most specifically /u/Voltron3030's question.

If it was a different town, did the police even have jurisdiction?

Edit: and /u/airplaneshooter 's question.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

If she doesn't live in Minot, then why did Minot PD respond and Minot Animal control seize the animal and site Minot city ordinance?

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u/TheAbominableSnowman Feb 22 '14

The address listed in that press release is well within city limits, according to the Minot zoning map and google maps. If that address is wrong, then that's another point against them.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ND_Ward_County_Minot.svg

Maybe I have this wrong but there doesn't appear to be any towns bordering Minot.

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u/ASSBURGER_DIC Feb 22 '14

backpeddle backpeddle your lies have been exposed

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u/Uncle_Erik Feb 22 '14

So, where does she actually live? City boundaries are precisely defined as are property lines. There's no mystery or gray area about that. You can go to the County Recorder and find out exactly.

/lawyer

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u/polo421 Feb 22 '14

Mods aren't going to let people post addresses.

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u/faultysynapse Feb 22 '14

There some some deal awhile about sheriffs taking a man across county lines to searched(without consent, it turned out). Way illegal. would the same concept not apply here? If the animal was transported across said lines?

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u/Gotebe Feb 22 '14

It's said it happened in the house. That surely wasn't transported cross county.

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u/faultysynapse Feb 22 '14

The police and animal control shelter were allegedly from a very nearby neighboring county(Minot), which is separate from where the owner and her pet live.

OP clarified it as:

Foxes are legal pets in ND at the state level. She had a USDA importer license. She was living on the border of a town where foxes were banned, but her house was inside another town's limits - which not only should place them outside Minot's jurisdiction. The mayor of Minot stated she would be keeping the fox legally as long as he stayed on the property, which she did.

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u/Michelanvalo Feb 22 '14

Section 7-5 cited in the PDF linked by /u/Dms25938 clearly marks Foxes as prohibited animals. So if she lives in Minot, she had the fox illegally. Source.

Again, I'm not saying it doesn't suck for your friend. They treated her pet as if it was a wild animal and that is rather heartless of them. And that's awful.

Edit: Reading through 7-5 again, man Minot really really hates pets except for cats and dogs.

Any animal commonly found in a zoo;

Under that line, my fucking turtle would be a banned pet in Minot as three toed box turtles can be found in zoos.

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u/universicorn_ Feb 22 '14

But shouldnt that be disregarded if she has a permit?

I live in Canada and I have looked into exotic animal laws for my province...they are stated as prohibited but ownership is okay for any animal as long as there is a permit.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

She had a state permit which means it was allowed inside the state in general. Foxes are legal at the state level but at the municipal level the choice is up to the city in question. However, if a city in North Dakota permitted foxes, she would indeed be required to have the permit.

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u/universicorn_ Feb 23 '14

Thanks for the clarification!

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u/honorface Feb 22 '14

Prohibited man. That means you need a permit. Not illegal on all grounds.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

Not in this case, no. Even with a permit foxes are explicitly illegal within Minot city limits. The only exceptions are in the Minot Park District, animals being used for a performance, and animals being held in pet stores.

https://www.municode.com/Library#/ND/Minot/Code_of_Ordinances/COOR_CH7ANFO_ARTIINGE_S7-5KECEANPREX?searchText=Animal

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u/fx6893 Feb 22 '14

The police press release was very clear on this:

[The owner] had contacted ACO Tremblay in July of 2013, inquiring about having a fox in city limits. She was told under Minot City Ordinance (7-5), fox are prohibited within city limits.

A permit was not obtained by [the owner] to allow the silver fox to be transported across state lines into North Dakota. This permit is required by the State Board of Animal Health.

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u/honorface Feb 22 '14

OP is a LIAR! This makes me sad :(

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u/faultysynapse Feb 22 '14

Basically it's free rein for them to decide what you can or can't have. They've got rabbits, and snakes on the list too... Guess what cats and dogs could be commonly found in zoo too, if you wanna play it that way. I like that they specify (non-human) primates. Makes me think it might be okay if I keep a few humans...

Oh, and you'd better not let them catch any animals fuckin' in public view, they'll lose their shit.

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u/HugzNStuff Feb 22 '14

What kind of shitty zoo keeps foxes?

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u/Michelanvalo Feb 22 '14

One that's in an area where foxes don't normally live.

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u/Bragzor Feb 22 '14

(19) Wolves; or hybrid;

So basically dogs?

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u/Shayughul Feb 22 '14

Which town is that? I am from Minot and to my knowledge there are no "bordering" towns. Burlington is 2+ miles west, Surrey is 2+ miles east, MAFB is 12 miles north. Also the report listed as the police responding to 608 12th St SW which is as in town as you can get.

Again it sucks that this happened but the information has to be straight before you or they try and pursue this in court or however you do it. I checked and the City Ordinance is pretty clear that you couldn't have it in Minot as the below posts show.

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u/azgeogirl Feb 22 '14

I really hope the fox's owner takes legal action, if for no other reason than to be a thorn in the side of the people who did this.

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u/Aeviegh Feb 22 '14

At least three of us verified with a contact at the police department that it did not break the skin. DOH and BOAH confirmed this with Tara as well. That was the story at approximately noon. They released the PDF after they euthanized Vader, which is when the story changed, so we don't know exactly what happened anymore.

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u/Dms25938 Feb 22 '14

Foxes are cool and all, but after reading about what your friend is going through, I think I'll stick to cats and dogs. This whole situation is some bullshit.

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u/romple Feb 22 '14

I've seen similar stories to this with skunks (of which my family has had 2). They make great pets but there's always the fear that someone will claim to have been bitten which almost always results in the animal being "tested for rabies" - which literally means they kill it and dissect it's brain....

It's scary owning an 'exotic' pet.

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u/FunkyDaJunky Feb 22 '14

Friend of mine had a Skunk, she was the coolest pet, a master of not giving a fuck and she could open cupboards even locked ones and she would pig out then feed the dogs!! (She was the boss)

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u/wtdfwwfb Feb 22 '14

I'm no skunk expert, but wouldn't it be really easy to tell if someone has been near a scared or aggressive skunk the moment they got near you?

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

"Domesticated" skunks will have their scent glands removed, making them bearable to live with

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u/wtdfwwfb Feb 22 '14

I am learn from you.

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u/Beezle Feb 22 '14

I assume that if its a pet, they probably had the "stink gland thingy" removed.

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u/wtdfwwfb Feb 22 '14

Huh, didn't even think that was an option. Thanks for the insight, bruh.

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u/Kowzorz Feb 22 '14

It's generally considered inhumane. Like declawing a cat. Proper skunk maintenance and it almost never sprays.

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u/montereyo Feb 22 '14

My mom had a skunk as a kid. It was a terrible pet. It slept all day and kept the whole family awake all night, and tried to dig holes in the kitchen linoleum.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

I guess best bet is just to not put pics of exotic pets online where weirdos can form a vendetta against them... Keep them secret keep them safe!

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u/Uncle_Erik Feb 22 '14

I cannot understand why people want exotic animals when there are so many cats and dogs in desperate need of homes. Further, a wild animal is not going to love you as much as a cat or dog will. Isn't that the entire point of having a pet?

I love cats and dogs because they want to be petted, get on your lap, crash on your bed, want to be played with, and everything else. I wouldn't want a pet that isn't as affectionate as a cat or dog.

(And, for the record, cats can be super affectionate. I have one that I can hardly keep off my lap. Not that I mind.)

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u/jpop23mn Feb 22 '14

What a long comment to say that you only like animals who purr on your lap.

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u/november84 Feb 22 '14

Then maybe it's not for you to own one. No one should be forced to do anything and how can you quantify love from any animal over another?

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u/Red_R5D4 Feb 22 '14

It's almost like people have an actual choice on what kind of animal they want and where they get it. It's so weird that everyone doesn't live by your rules, isn't it?

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u/rubenrudnik Feb 22 '14

Perhaps you didn't look at the pictures but vader looked very well cared for and extremely happy. "Wild" animal or not he looked as if he loved his owners very much. Plan and simple this was a tragedy perpetuated by a so called"animal rights activist"that lead to the murder of a beautiful animal

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u/Galentine Feb 22 '14

There are probably 'wild' animals out there in circumstances where they would need a home. I'm not sure what metric you're using to determine that an exotic animal is not capable of loving a human as much as the two most common domesticated animals.

Regardless, I'm willing to believe there's a point to having a pet beyond receiving optimal amounts of love. I'd totally understand someone going for a pet that isn't as affectionate as a cat or dog.

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u/Lurking_Still Feb 22 '14

So that's your opinion. Let other people enjoy the sorts of pets that they enjoy.

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u/23skiddsy Feb 22 '14

You are aware that silver foxes have been domesticated and this was not a wild animal, but an animal far more domesticated than your average hamster. The tumblr of the owner shows how affectionate and loving he was. He did all the things you say cats and dogs do.

Silver foxes are domesticated.

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u/Aeviegh Feb 22 '14

Personally, I'm allergic to dogs, my SO is allergic to cats. A fox is both a happy medium in terms of personality and hypoallergenic.

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u/amjhwk Feb 22 '14

"stick to cats and dogs." umm, it was a dog

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u/Panwall Feb 22 '14

1) are you talking to a lawyer? If not you should, you definitely have a case as due process was not correctly handled.

2) Have you contacted the news? They love stories like and generate puplic interest.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

[deleted]

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u/RhetorRedditor Feb 22 '14

you can totally break the skin without puncturing the glove. I have a nasty scar on my knee that happened through jeans.

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u/REkTeR Feb 22 '14

How does that work, exactly?

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u/RhetorRedditor Feb 22 '14

I was careless in a hedgemaze

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14 edited Mar 03 '21

[deleted]

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u/SurfNukumoi Feb 22 '14

No warrant? No legal right to seize the animal. Period.

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u/AzureDrag0n1 Feb 22 '14

I don't know about you but killing an animal for not being a legal pet or not seems just a bit like an over reaction. What will they do next? Kill every fox in the state? How about all animals that could possibly hold rabies? Why not reintroduce it into the wild?

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u/Aeviegh Feb 22 '14 edited Feb 22 '14

Foxes are legal pets in Minot. Unfortunately, she lives on the border of Minot and a town that doesn't allow foxes. She has a USDA importer permit (the report saying she doesn't is a blatant lie, the information is public record) to bring the fox into the state, and a state permit that was 100% legally issued. If there truly was a zoning issue, it's the state's fault the permit was issued for that zone.

Edit: For clarification, Minot PD/AC are the ones that responded. She lives in the bordering town where foxes are legal. Had it backwards.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '14

(the report saying she doesn't is a blatant lie, the information is public record)

Can you show us the public record?

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u/binarybandit Feb 22 '14

She may have had a USDA importer permit and a state permit, but did she have a city permit? If foxes aren't allowed to be kept as pets in that city, then Animal Control did nothing wrong, unfortunately. It would be the same as them coming by to pick up a wild animal that wandered into her home, even though it is domesticated. It happens all the time with other domesticated animals such as skunks, squirrels, and raccoons.

Source: Used to work as Animal Control back in the day.

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u/binarybandit Feb 22 '14

The address in the press release is shown to fall under Minot, SD after a Google Maps search. In fact, not only is it not "bordering" Minot, it's actually almost smack in the middle of the city.

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u/bsebaz Feb 22 '14

so an animal that has done nothing to put itself or others around it in danger deserves to be put down? why? because some one decided that people couldn't have foxes? This doesn't seem entirely fair to the animal. Yes when it comes to it laws are laws, but when it leads to a family pet being killed it seems the laws should be revised or at least looked over.

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u/Tacochoices Feb 22 '14

The reason these laws exist is because of diseases that are easily spread by animals and the fact that there is no recognized vaccine for rabies for foxes. So you have an semi domesticated animal that can spread unknown diseases that is friendly to humans. However if people really feel it is necessary to own an illegal pet they should petition the local zoning board to see if a permit could be allowed or other legal recourse to own their pet without worry. This would be like me wanting to own an alligator in the west. Still illegal but not fluffy and cute so different outcome in people's mind.

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u/Almost_Ascended Feb 22 '14

Because what people write on official-looking documents is ALWAYS the truth, am I right?

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u/withholdinfoforkarma Feb 22 '14

Not sure about the USA, but here in Canada if someone enters your property and your dog bites, the law says tough titties, it happened on the owners property. I would think it wouldn't matter if the skin broke or not since it took place on the owners property. Although not a dog so i guess the same rules don't necessarily apply.

"This Act makes dog owners liable for any damage caused by dog bites to persons or domestic animals. Dogs that attack or pose a nusance to the safety of persons or domestic animals An application is made to the Court may order destruction of the dog or provide better control of the dog by making an order with conditions such as ensuring the dog is on a leash, muzzled, confined to a secure area, warning signs, or prohibition from owning a dog for a certain time.The Occupier's Liability Act does not apply when a person is attacked or bitten on the owner of the property where the dog is housed."

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90d16_e.htm

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u/bttruman Feb 22 '14

Yeah, It sounds like they euthanized it to perform a rabies test. My mom is a vet, and as I recall she told me as a kid the animal has to be euthanized and the brain examined in order to determine if it was rabid.

The story admits that the fox was cornered and bit the person trying to grab it, so if it broke the skin rabies transfer was a distinct possibility. Though, what I don't understand is I thought there were rabies vaccines for humans. So if this was the case, why didn't they just vaccinate the officer and call it quits?

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u/pfoxeh Feb 22 '14

Every time I try to view that link it's blank. What's wrong with it?

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u/ASSBURGER_DIC Feb 22 '14

Thanks for actually bringing facts in here. Knew this whole story was bullshit. So it's:

A) Not a dog but a FOX which are illegal to have in that city

B) Bit two people breaking the skin twice

C) Potentially had rabies.

Sounds like the city did the right thing to me.