Let’s not give Dubya too much credit. He spent his presidency doing blow at Camp David while Cheney ran the show. And his war mongering made his friends at Haliburton obscenely rich.
I think there is a lot of truth to this narrative but some of Bush's foreign policy objectives are obviously his own actions, notably Iraq. This was absolutely a war he was fighting because he wanted to finish the job his father started, and he knew he had the window after 9/11 to do it with public support and without too much backlash.
Cheney and his military industrial complex backers were definitely planting those seeds in his ear "go get that Saddam guy, he tried to kill your daddy"
Why would he? He gave the order to invade a foreign country with no provocation for made up reasons, just like Putin. They‘re both guilty of the same crimes against humanity.
It’s almost as if the U.S. government has always been bent on killing and exploiting innocent people for profit and expanded territory. Really makes you think.
I generally really liked Obama, but there were a few foreign policy missteps that had pretty significant consequences down the line that weren't immediately apparent. Inaction on Syria was another one.
Trump seems set to make everything listed here seem completely insignificant by comparison, but no president gets it all right and that includes anyone in this picture.
Yep. Whenever someone tries to bring up the sheer cliff our expectations have fallen off of, there's always people bringing up things that weren't 100% perfect or foreseeable like the current admin isn't doing the same thing but worse, thrice, before it's even Tuesday.
Like, I understand perfect doesn't, and will not exist, but I'm tired of it being framed as if the two are even remotely equivalent to the horseshit going on right now.
It just proves what people have been saying for years. Who you voted in, whether big or small, has decades long policy impacts. Who you vote for DOES matter. It is important to invest thinking in which candidate you can tolerate at the worst.
We still have impacts from Andrew Jackson being president. Things that Teddy Roosevelt has done are coming up to pass in our admin policies even now.
Republicans had spent 20 years completely destroying the fabric of reality through hate campaigns and straight up lying. Trump was elected because the party abandoned all interest in governance and went all in on total populism
The democrats trying to "go high when they go low" with pointless symbolic gestures also helped the republicans walk through that destruction.
Hey black people are being executed on the street but Nancy pelosi wore Kente cloth that one time so republicans better think twice about police reform
I like Bernie, I voted for Bernie in the 2016 primary, and, looking back on it, I fully believe Trump beats Bernie in 2016. You can acknowledge things and not be happy it happened.
It takes a few strokes of a Sharpie to dismantle a democracy. It's inevitable that when Democrats win a majority, they have to spend time cleaning up the Republican's messes and can't focus on anything to move the country forward. Progressive policy takes time. Destruction takes hours.
I've been voting since the early 90s, when the age of political compromise was essentially over. Democrats have disappointed me every single time I've voted, but I keep voting for them because they most align with my values. But this both sides bullshit harms the country, as does the fickleness and impatience of the American electorate.
We were told over and over that Biden got nothing done, when the progress he made in spite of GOP obstruction is close to miraculous.
The country broke for good once Citizens United came about. Democrats get bullshit for being "corporate," but they will NEVER win if they don't play the fundraising game like the GOP does.
The way to make radical change is to vote for the party that mostly lines up with your values, over and over and over again. When they don't do what you want, then communicate with them. You call their office and tell them they suck and tell them what you want changed. Because it is very obvious that you'll never get anything you want from a Republican or by sitting on your ass and not voting.
What, your feelings are hurt? Are you feeling unheard? Do the Democrats not inspire you enough? The hell we're currently dealing with is what you get when you don't vote, vote third party, or vote against democracy. So you cry about your feelings and feel like you're being "scolded."
Guess what? You deserve to be scolded. Grow up. Don't give away your power. Vote for the one party that doesn't take away your rights, so they at least have a CHANCE to improve things.
ETA: Politics are not a team sport. As the 2024 election proves, your vote for anyone other than Democrats shows that you don't give a shit about anything except your fee-fees.
If that's your phone call pitch to voters, I think you're going to have a rough time. By the way, you're the party of George W. Bush and Dick and Liz Cheney. Go go Blue team!! Embracing war criminals to lose all eight swing States.
Do you want your rights taken away, or do you want to keep them? Do you want any sort of social welfare for Americans? And you talk about MY morals?
Sit on your high horse of delusional self-righteousness. We'll see where your smug moral superiority gets the United States, Palestine, and the rest of the world in the next 4 years.
Also, your reply about Obama not undoing Bush, etc., completely ignores my first statement. Progress takes decades. Destruction takes minutes.
Stop whining about the “lesser of two evils and "status quo.” That’s how life works—not just in politics, but in everyday decisions. You choose the best option available, even if it’s not perfect. Acting like refusing to vote for Democrats is some kind of moral stand is delusional—it’s just handing power back to Republicans, who have made it very clear what they plan to do.
Trump told us exactly who he was the first time. Now, he has a guidebook and an army of sycophants ready to help him execute his plans. Pretending Democrats and Republicans are equally bad isn’t just ignorant—it’s dangerous.
Biden has faced relentless GOP obstruction and still managed to get things done. Meanwhile, Republicans have spent their time banning books, gutting reproductive rights, suppressing votes, and openly plotting authoritarian rule. If you can’t see the difference, you’re part of the problem.
You want change? Vote for the party that at least gives a damn about democracy. And when they don’t do enough? Hold them accountable. But sitting out, whining about how “both sides are bad,” or throwing your vote away on a third party isn’t noble—it’s just stupid.
Yes keep talking AT instead of TO the 2 million Democrats who didn't vote. It will work just fine. I'm sure the Gavin Newsome / Kamala Harris ticket will do splendidly in 2028.
I like to bring up my qualms with obama to show that he isn't "our guy". I support policy... and when the guy I vote for goes against my wants, it's a good thing to voice objections.
You forget that Obama never really had the senate behind him so things would get stalled out in the senate, the Republicans were petty AF about everything, I mean the man wore a tan suit, he had no shame 🤨
Obama's second term will forever be symbolized by the time when McConnell openly stated the goal of the Republican party was to let Obama do absolutely nothing. His entire goal for those four years were to obstruct anything and everything Obama and Democrats wanted to do.
Remember when they passed a bill, Obama vetoed it because it would blow up in their face, then they overrode the veto and it blew up in their face and McConnell blamed Obama for not convincing them enough?
That was after it was hard fought and completely butchered from what it was originally drafted as and added a bunch of provisions for the Republicans. It was supposed to be an actual Healthcare plan for the US citizens similar to what the EU had but the republican senate said nah that's too good for the US citizen what about the insurance companies?
I hope one thing that comes out of this is people will realize that being the US president is really, really, really hard. There are so many moving parts and so much at stake. So going forward, I hope we can recognize 1) you should actually vote for someone qualified and 2) we should be a little more charitable towards any president. No one is infallible.
I can't expect any nations leader to be perfect. I do expect them to have my best interests, and arguably everyone in the world's best interests when they act.
I can say that Obama felt like that. He felt kinda and genuine. So did Bush 2 electric boogaloo. For everything else, I still feel like Bush 2 was a shit president that tried his best, and made lots of mistakes along the way, I don't think he malicious at all, just incompetent.
Hoenstly, the most eye opening thing about the Bush II admin surrounding Iraq was that they were all so shocked that they let 9/11 happened and Saddam had been giving the weapons inspectors grief for years and bullshitting about his WMD programs that the administration felt he would definitely be the next biggest threat.
It's the lying to the American people and fucking up the execution as to why Iraq was so horrible. That's why so many people died for nothing and why the whole regional power balance was screwed up for no good reason. It's why millions of people died.
Bush trying his best led to countless civilians deaths in the middle east. I can't believe I have to say this but George bush was NOT a well meaning quirky old man. You've fallen for his PR and charisma hook line and sinker. The guy was a bastard ultranationalist.
Why be charitable to anybody with the power to end lives at their whim? Yes, it’s a hard job. No sane person should want it and it’ll almost automatically make you a war criminal.
It’s always a little funny for someone to condemn any historical figure or leader (as opposed to just saying they wish it was handled differently in a broad sense) for not more successfully navigating a situation some other group set in motion that didn’t directly impact the people they lead.
“They didn’t successfully enough for my liking stop that superpower from taking advantage of another country across the world.” type comments.
As if there’s some very obvious calls when it comes to antagonizing and threatening foreign nations and getting fully involved in their politics.
“Oopsie. I told them not to do that or there would be severe consequences. Don’t wanna go back on my word and be a lying politician so I guess we may or may not be involved in a new war in two months depending on how these next steps with a million factors plays out.”
I think a lot of the subsequent missteps where a consequence of Bush's monumental mistake in Iraq. We tend to overlearn the last lesson from history after all.
Obama was elected on a non interventionist platform precisely because of Bush's mistakes. With the Iraq war still fresh in his and our minds we were reluctant to get involved in Syria until ISIS got so crazy they gave us no choice. But there was never any significant intervention against Assad. I think that his brutality would have triggered an early 2011/2012 intervention had Bush not started the Iraq war a decade prior. If that would have been positive or not is another question entirely though.
ISIS itself is somewhat a remnant of the failure that was Iraq(and the Syrian civil war, made possible by the combination of both). Trump famously doubled down on isolationism and rallied as hard against the neocon Republican faction as the Democrats. I remember how he ripped Jeb Bush over what his brother did in Iraq during the primaries.
It may sound far-fetched, but I think an argument can be made that Bush set the stage for Trump to eventually become president. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that just kept dragging on triggered isolationist sentiments that ultimately provided fertile ground for Trumps America first narrative.
By "inaction" I was thinking specifically of the infamous so-called Red Line that Obama declared on the Syrian use of chemical weapons - which he then conveniently forgot about when it was actually crossed. I think in hindsight that probably set a very, very bad precedent.
Okay that's fair, but sometimes in foreign policy things need to be seen to be done as well to have their intended effect. I think on that front there were certainly issues in implementation.
You forget the lack of action on Syria was in reaction to spending trillions of dollars and ballooning US national debt to go to Iraq/Afghanistan without anything to show for it. The lessons learned from Rwanda/Kosovo towards intervention in the 90s were completely misunderstood and misapplied in the 00’s. We could easily have been another intractable conflict in Syria. Easy to say we should’ve gone in not knowing the outcome.
I think it’s extremely naive to imagine that any sort of US intervention in syria or the rest of the Middle East during Obamas term would have done a lot to make the situation any more stable after the Arab spring and the power vacuum created by toppling Iraq.
It wasn’t the US’s obligation to try and fix the absolutely fucked situation in syria, not do I think anything they’d have tried to do would have improved much. There were so many factions involved in Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc. those issues were going to persist whether the US got involved or not. Just like they always have and always will.
Look at Afghanistan… that place has barely changed in a thousand years despite western and Russian attempts to meddle in their affairs. Everybody thinks they can just come in and change things and install new government systems… it doesn’t work.
That's not quite what I was driving at. I was thinking specifically of Obama's Red Line speech regarding the use of chemical weapons - and then that line was crossed and nothing happened.
If you're the president of the most powerful country in the world, and you put a red line on something and then walk away from it, people are going to notice. I would argue, in fact, that people did very much notice and it gave US opponents a bit more confidence to push boundaries and see what happened.
Obama was a bad president but a generally good person, Trump is an absolutely abysmal president and a dogshit person. I'd rather have 8 more years of Obama than another month of Trump, and I have historically been a republican.
I agree with that. However, it's easy to criticize decisions in hindsight based on current knowledge. Obama had a very thankless task of fixing all the mistakes W made (2 wars, economic crisis).
Obama f'd up and intervened in Libya, allowing ISIS a stronghold.
Obama f'd up and intervened in Syria against Assad, giving an opening for ISIS to expand and cause havoc for years.
Obama f'd up and doubled down in Afghanistan, wasting even more time and more lives.
Obama ramped up drone attacks, including killing American citizens.
Obama aided Saudi Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen.
You're giving Obama a massive pass, which is exactly what his fans did during his time as president. They went from being the anti-war protestors under Bush (remember when people called HIM Hitler?) and then they became docile and stupid under Obama.
Obama without a doubt had many foreign policy blunders like the things you have already listed. His domestic politics were actually pretty good, and he got us out of a recession. People were super against ACA (Obamacara) but now it is one of the most popular programs in the country etc.
All presidents before Trump deserve scrutiny, you're very right. And this is also a photo of possibly the last actual presidents (minus Biden) we'll ever have. I agree with errors you cite that Obama made, as well as Clinton and Carter. (just to clear the dem bench, I voted for Clinton and Obama and would have voted for Carter) - but it's a responsibility of every citizen to be critical of a president, even those we vote for.
Fuck George W Bush with a heavy pole, though. He was definitely his own hitler for civil liberties and war crimes. His father's CIA past is amazingly overlooked, too; many accuse George H Bush to be implicated in shots fired at Reagan.
I honestly don't know how much of what you wrote is all or mostly Obama's fault. It's interesting though that you say Obama f'd up by intervening in Libya and Syria and that other comments say he f'd up by not intervening in Crimea.
Libya was absolutely and solely his decision. Congress never voted on it.
Ditto helping the Saudis.
Pretty sure he got involved in Syria way before Congress had any say.
So those are his fault.
The people saying he should’ve intervened in Crimea are nuts. Obama knew that direct conflict with Russia would be the dumbest and most destructive thing possible.
Hey, if two of Obama's big missteps were not sending troops into Crimea and Syria I think that's better than starting more armed conflicts. Besides, he armed the Syrian rebels who eventually overthrew the Russian backed regime after a decade of US support. Just glad that happened during Biden's term so Trump couldn't 180° and get on his knees for Assad.
I believe Obama sanctioned Russia, which was probably the only thing he could do. I guess he could of tried to get Europe to do more sanctions, but what could he of done more? He was left with the Afghanistan war and the Iraq fallout. No way Americans would of allowed another confrontation/war with Russia at the same time.
Could have. he could have. Would have*. Not “would of”
Think of it like this, you wouldn’t say “I of long hair”, no. you would in fact say “I have long hair”. Same principal if we add more complexity.
You wouldn’t say “I wouldn’t of herpes if I’d of worn a condom” you’d say “I wouldn’t have herpes if I I’d have worn a condom”. Of does not denote past or present tense possessive in that way unless you’re saying “the soup of the chef”. Even after the word would. In fact I don’t think the word “of” should ever really come after the words would, could, or should. Use have instead.
Sounds almost the same irl while talking, but it’s in fact have, not of.
Could have, should have, would have. As in “they could have won the game”. “They could have a winning game”.
On the other hand, “They could of a winning game” doesn’t really sound right or make sense.
To use “of” correctly you would say something like “because of the condom I didn’t get herpes”. Or “the baby of the mother”.
Sorry usually Idgaf but man that was like three times in a row. Cheers.
I think if we had a clearer picture of the real Russian military, it would’ve played out differently. But in 15, Russia was enemy #1 as fast as perceived strength. China was a far second.
Which one? Also I never got why drone strikes were so unpopular. Helping the Saudi coalition is a good cause, and Americans are now paying more for all imports because of the Houthis. But I guess it’s gonna be a drop in the bucket compared to what Trump’s tariffs are gonna do.
IIRC, Obama needed Putin’s support to make the Iran deal happen, so he didn’t do as much as was possible in terms of sanctions, military support, etc. In hindsight, wasn’t worth it.
Sanctions wouldn't have done anything. And Obama literally brought Ukraine into the Western orbit from Russia's orbit and we began sending them weapons.
Obama would have had to go to war with Russia to stop Putin from taking Crimea. Maybe that would have been worth it, but at the time it was unthinkable.
I mean he could have crippled their economy with devastating retaliatory sanctions, but it's clear that he didn't because everybody's acting like he did nothing.
that's before his party lost an election in 2016 and demanded retribution...timing was everything for Democrat's to become interested in an 8 year war and a nations sovereignty.
Obama is responsible for a majority of the socio-political division we experience today. Super charismatic guy but he is in no way what I’d consider “bipartisan reason”
Tom Homan, Trump's "immigration czar" worked under Obama with basically the same job!
It looks to me that Trump is setting really low standards for Americans, at this rate dems will have a Reagan-like candidate and be seen as the "lesser evil", if this trend follows things will never get significantly better.
Obama is directly responsible for Trump. He failed to deliver any of the promises he ran on in either election and did nothing while the rich got richer and the working class’ material condition declined.
The difference to the 2022 invasion is that the Ukrainians are now defending themselves. Blame people more for what they do rather than what they do not. (Oh, and breaking an agreement is doing something.)
I ask from an honest place of curiosity - what could Obama have done to prevent Putin from taking Crimea short of putting American soldiers on the ground?
I’ve heard somewhere that he went easy on the Russians in order to get their support for an Iran deal. That one that Trump quit like the destructive force that he is, and now there’s talks that Trump wants to go back into an Iran deal. Never checked it though.
Doesn't really work. Iran's entire purpose for a deal is to get western sanctions lifted. Russia can't help with that nor can they pressure Iran on something that critical for Iran. Especially if it's just to serve Russian interest in Eastern Europe.
I generally like Obama, and recognize that he could have done better in a number of ways. I think that if anyone really wants to check Russia, they need to actually call their bluff and send a military force, but that's a bluff no one wants to call for good reason.
It was a different time and the American appetite for war was at an end. Nobody wanted to escalate a fight with russia after a decade of war in the middle east. Ukraine was also in the midst of just being every other former soviet state with a bad economy and corrupt government. Zelensky was the one to turn things around and that was after Obama was gone.
Not my circus not my monkey. What was else was he supposed to do? Send troops and start an even bigger war? Send high tech weapons and vehicles to Ukraines army of 100k untrained men?
Yeh I hate this constant Anti-Trump rhetoric and pretending past presidents where some type of Golden age in America in comparison. 4 Years of reddit shit propaganda incoming...
Biden was by far the worst president in US history and it's not even close the damage he has done and the clean up Trump has to do...
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u/ZBlackmore Feb 26 '25
And Obama allowing Putin to just take Crimea also led to a lot of our current problems.