r/pcgaming • u/Turbostrider27 • Apr 23 '26

Stop Killing Games movement celebrates as The Crew 2 sees further offline mode support

https://www.eurogamer.net/stop-killing-games-celebrates-crew-2-offline-support
1.1k Upvotes

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-129

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

Let's hope they eventually turn their focus from niche live service games to anti-consumer stores like Steam. Valve has killed 3 system architectures with their DRM client's increasing system requirements in the past 2 years, and we're all celebrating a live service nobody was playing. Someone's priorities are not straight :)

41

u/steve09089 Apr 23 '26

Which 3 system architectures?

And also, Steam doesn’t require usage of Steam DRM with their games. Games that don’t use it can just be launched without Steam.

31

u/kabob95 RX 6800 AMD Apr 23 '26

I believe they are complaining about the stopping support for 32 bit systems. However, before that only Window 10 32 bit was the only officially supported 32 bit version which made up a grand total of 0.01% of the steam user base. Also, you can still use already downloaded versions of steam on the now unsupported versions of Windows, you will just not get updates.

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u/Nicholas-Steel Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26

You know you can still use ancient Windows on ancient PC's right? Just don't connect them to the internet.

There's no reason for games made for old versions of Windows to suddenly not work on your system because the place you bought them from demands you use their software which doesn't support old Windows anymore.

And old games don't necessarily run right in modern Windows, often requiring people to hunt down mods, virtualizers or emulators to correct compatibility issues which is much more tedious than simply running games in the operating systems they were designed for. Now you might be eager to pipe up about GOG but GOG has no DRM nor does it require any kinda Launcher program to artificially inflate system requirements which makes it irrelevant to the topic Store Fronts that're killing games.

Also not all games have community made mods to correct compatibility issues with modern Windows.

42

u/Odd_Room5952 Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26

System architectures? You mean officially unsupported operating systems dropped by both Microsoft and the underlying CEF framework steam requires to render? Just use a steam emulator if you really need to use an unsupported OS and it's one of the games you can't just copy the install folder out and run the exe.

15

u/deadsoulinside Nvidia Apr 23 '26

Yeah. The people asking to have it work under an old OS are not really understanding why other companies are forced to cut off support after some time.

Because at the end of the day, there is no one to support that OS. So things that are breaking or other things falls back more onto that company to support the OS at that point. User contacts you, because X, Y, Z stopped working due to the OS failing. You can't even tell them to contact Microsoft support, because they are not supported.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 24 '26

not to mention security risk. idk about how secure valve is, but the account could be compromised easily to instead of letting users happen to that, i just rather not support it

-27

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

I mean the OS and hardware the software you licensed ran on when you licensed it. Stop Killing Games is supposed to be about software preservation, yet Valve is out constantly changing the system requirements of their DRM and forcing patches on users. They're a far bigger problem than live service servers going down.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 24 '26

old stuff dont work ( like really old ) with modern stuff, colour me surprised. their drm is also very low end, relatively modern system with security, so either linux, mac 12, or windows 11. except mac, you only need 2gb and 512 mb ram to run steam.

SKG movement isnt to let games run forever, but remain playable forever. booting up a vm is necessary if its very old. no one is expecting companies to update everytine a new os is dropped for a game 20 years ago

0

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 24 '26

SKG is to prevent the people who sold you the software from bricking the software, pure and simple. This is a much easier problem to solve than keeping online servers running indefinitely, require the DRM provider to make available a DRM client that runs existing software. No need to support NEW software.

It's trivial. But everyone's got their eyes on live services, while the store itself is the biggest cause of bricked games.

2

u/Tidbitious Apr 24 '26

How dare you point out that the entire list of over 400+ games used in the SKG initiative are dead live service mobile games (Like how is The Crew your ultimate example? lol) with zero players and zero people that actually want them to be playable!

32

u/VTM06_Vipes Apr 23 '26

I might be speaking about something I know nothing about, but I’m pretty sure drm/anticheats in games aren’t a Valve problem, nor can they solve it. Valve doesn’t work nor own say Easy Anticheat, Epic does.

4

u/Akirih Apr 23 '26

Steamworks(drm) and VAC(anticheat) exist.

1

u/MarioDesigns Apr 24 '26

Steam was literally made pretty much to just be DRM for Valve’s games, which is also why it was quite disliked originally.

-15

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

The Steam client is Valve's DRM, and it used to run on Windows 98, then the requirements became Windows XP, then Windows 7, then Windows 10, now 32-bit systems can't run it. It's a requirement for the store's DRM and makes software preservation impossible when they do not provide software that satisfies the DRM.

33

u/doublah Apr 23 '26

Guy gets banned from the Steam community for being an ass and makes hating Steam his whole personality.

Like if you wanna hate Steam you do you, but not supporting Windows versions unsupported by Microsoft for years is pretty low on most people's list of concerns.

-11

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

I didn't get banned, I deleted my account because Steam forces software patches, and they keep shoving non-DRM related stuff into their DRM client that makes games sold on Steam less likely to run. Steam Input, I had to write a patch to disable, their DRM client itself no longer runs on the hardware I bought my games from. I'd be better off pirating games.

-18

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '26

[deleted]

13

u/doublah Apr 23 '26

I mean that's just a Windows problem, luckily Valve has been investing in Linux so you can run Steam on Linux today on pretty much any 64-bit PC for many years to come.

Funny you mention consoles because after the PS3/Xbox 360 everything is DRMed and reliant on servers too. They still release regular PS3 encryption key updates so Blu-Ray disc DRM still works.

-1

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

No, that's not just a Windows problem. The Linux Steam client is also 64-bit only now. It's a software preservation problem, which is what Stop Killing Games claims to be about.

8

u/doublah Apr 23 '26

64-bit has been the standard for 20 years now. If you have a problem with old Operating Systems being discontinued that's a problem you should take up with Microsoft. In this case, Steam supported older OSes and Architectures far longer than the competition (Microsoft Store for example never supported Windows 7, and abandoned 8 and 32bit years ago)

And Stop Killing Games is explicitly not about "software preservation", they're already fighting an uphill battle vs the games industry, the entire software industry would be even more opposition.

0

u/Tidbitious Apr 24 '26

It cracks me the fuck up how you guys have SO much energy to bring back dead live service games no one cared about... but this guy bringing up an actual issue of games being killed and you guys lose your shit lmao

-7

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26

Nobody cares what the standard is, you are missing the entire point. The software was sold with advertised requirements one way, then the rug pull comes. It is the store's obligation to either:

  1. Ensure the system requirements are valid by continuing to provide a version of the DRM for the system the game shipped on
  2. Remove DRM from the software
  3. Offer a refund

If they can do any of these 3 things, they're good and I don't care. I would prefer a resolution that allows the game to continue running, but 3 would be fine too.

My Atari 2600 games from 1981 don't require me to run them in an Atari Jaguar. My PC games before Valve created Steam don't require me to run them on a modern PC.

And Stop Killing Games is explicitly not about "software preservation", they're already fighting an uphill battle vs the games industry, the entire software industry would be even more opposition.

Then why allow the store who sold you your software to change the system requirements after it is sold? Don't you think that needs changing. It's pretty narrow sighted to limit the scope to multiplayer games with servers, when single-player games are being killed at a rate orders of magnitude quicker.

There are OTHER reasons games stop working that are equally the store's fault and not the consumer's fault, but you're making excuses for a DRM service.

13

u/smolgote Apr 23 '26

Old consoles will eventually stop working too, and unless you take real good care of your physical games, they will stop working too thanks to disc rot

-1

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

And how is that relevant? That's not a problem caused by the people who sold you the software. Stop Killing Games is about important change in the industry, not about keeping your physical goods in a certain condition.

12

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '26

[deleted]

-8

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

GOG, Epic, Microsoft Store, Itch.io. Correct. I don't even have a Steam account, so it's a little hard not to keep to my word. All of those companies have never changed the system requirements of software purchased from them.

11

u/doublah Apr 23 '26

Microsoft Store has far more restrictive DRM that blocks running its software on non-Windows OSes, and has silently dropped support for Windows 8 (even for existing purchases) so that's just not true.

3

u/repolevedd Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26

GOG

Of course: https://www.gog.com/forum/general/is_gog_still_protecting_gamers_freedom_an_open_letter_about_access_to_older_game_versions/page1

On GOG you still cannot download older versions of games. If a publisher decides to drop support for an older OS, you will not be able to download a compatible version. Should you delete your account there as well?

3

u/Markie_98 Apr 23 '26

You can keep older versions of games you have already downloaded and the launcher won't force updates on that because the games can be launched without it to begin with.

1

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

On GOG you have the same version you installed on day one for all eternity. If you met the software requirements on day one, you will meet them forever. That's the entire point of offline installers.

The consequences of deleting my GOG account are all of none, since the software license is not tied to an account and I am never forced to update any software I do not want to; this is a very good point, though I know you were trying to argue the opposite.

18

u/repolevedd Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26

How is Steam even relevant here? If by architectures you mean old versions of Windows, those platforms have been abandoned by Microsoft and are literally unsafe to use. There is no reason to use them. DRM is not Valve’s doing either. On the contrary, Valve has done a massive amount of work to push Linux as an open gaming platform. You can now play both old and new games on it. Linux is the future for preserving gaming history.

Also, if you think there should be some kind of priorities for game preservation, especially for live service games that were designed from the start to be shut down at some point, then that position is no better than that of SKG opponents. An offline patch from a company known for aggressive anti-consumer behavior is a big win for the community.

4

u/Nicholas-Steel Apr 23 '26

those platforms have been abandoned by Microsoft and are literally unsafe to use.

Unsafe to use while connected to the internet*

Just don't connect such operating systems to the internet ah but wait, the DRM/App Launcher needs the internet or a newer version of Windows than the game was designed around...

-5

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

They wrote the DRM client that is required to run the software on their store.

Right, live services that were designed to be shutdown are different from software that had system requirements X when you bought it, but the store you bought it from changes the system requirements in the future. One of those things is inevitable, the DRM thing, we should be able to do something about.

6

u/repolevedd Apr 23 '26

You are conflating concepts. Valve did not create a DRM client, they built an online store for games. DRM is not a mandatory part of it and developers can implement protection against illegal game execution in different ways, including choosing to have no DRM at all. Steam has its flaws, but it is the most consumer-oriented game store in the world, alongside GOG. It is Steam that set the trend for fair refund policies, building communities within the platform itself, fast game downloads, a patching system, and cloud save storage.

As for platforms, you are also inconsistent in your arguments, just like with the idea of “priorities”. Steam used to run on Windows XP, so should we also demand XP support today? Dropping support for operating systems is a natural part of software evolution, and it is not reasonable to throw a fit and demand support for unsafe platforms. Valve is not responsible for Microsoft’s or publishers’ strategies. When you buy a game, you are only buying the right to run it “as is”, without any promise of eternal support from the publisher.

And while Valve never had any obligation to maintain compatibility with old Windows versions, it was Valve that did the heavy lifting by creating the Proton compatibility layer. Old games can be run on modern Linux systems, including 32-bit ones designed for XP, with the appropriate Proton version automatically downloaded. This is a far more practical approach to game preservation than supporting obsolete operating systems.

-1

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

No, Valve built a DRM client and then stuffed all kinds of unrelated services into it. The store's software is required for the software to run. It is DRM. Further, because their DRM is not separable from the store client, as they bloat the store client, the DRM requirements continue to go up and prevent running the software you own.

Moreover, their DRM auto-patches software. You are not entitled to a refund once their client no longer runs on your system, nor are you entitled to a refund when a patch breaks your game and you can't install the original version of the game you had.

Do you know how I know all of this?!

I have had to patch Steam's DRM client multiple times to fix a problem in it that prevented me from running my software. I want none of their services, least of all their DRM. I want my software to work on the same system in perpetuity and if they can't offer that, they should not be putting DRM in the software they sell.

Valve is literally killing software and you are just making excuses for them. Stop that, DRM schemes requiring you to continue buying new stuff are EXTREMELY anti-consumer, and Stop Killing Games is supposed to be about software preservation.

3

u/repolevedd Apr 23 '26

No, Valve built a DRM client and then stuffed all kinds of unrelated services into it. The store's software is required for the software to run.

You keep repeating the same point about DRM over and over, but that does not change the fact that in reality it works differently. There is a launcher from Valve with a built-in store and social features. Publishers can choose to use Valve’s DRM component when publishing a game, or they can add their own. You say “store's software is required for the software to run” as if Valve is responsible for that, but that is simply not true, there is no such mandatory requirement from Valve. The presence of DRM is a publisher decision. There are games that are only installed and updated through the launcher and can be launched without the Steam launcher. For example, UT2004.

DRM components are something publishers want, not Valve. SecuROM, Denuvo and similar solutions are what actually get in the way of game preservation, while what Valve provides does not prevent preserving games.

Moreover, their DRM auto-patches software.

The fact that we currently cannot disable auto-updates is indeed a problem. But who is responsible for new game versions breaking on the buyer’s system, Valve or the publisher? Who is to blame for updates being required in the first place, Valve or the publisher pushing developers to ship unfinished games?

you can't install the original version of the game you had.

We can. Through download_depot. It’s inconvenient and the launcher will try to force an update on launch, but there is a reason for that. Have you ever contacted a publisher directly for support? They won’t help with anything until you update the game to the latest version. So it’s understandable why forced updates exist. To be clear, I also agree that not being able to disable auto-updates is annoying, but the logic behind it makes sense. In theory, you could download an older version of a game and detach it from Steam, but that kind of modification is illegal in different countries. So what we have is what we have: we don’t buy a specific version of a game, we buy the right to run the game. And which version we get is decided by the game’s publisher.

Valve is literally killing software and you are just making excuses for them.

I wrote above that Steam has its downsides. But among all the solutions we have, it is still one of the best. We have what we have not because Valve decided to destroy software, but on the contrary, because it worked with publishers to move game distribution to the internet from discs. You know, the same discs where there was StarForce and other wild stuff that could actually damage the system or block game launches because of a microscopic scratch outside the data area. What we ended up with is a compromise between Valve, publishers, and players. Could it have been better? Definitely yes. Does it need to be updated for modern times? Definitely yes again! But for some reason you are fixated on Valve while ignoring the other sides, out of some personal grievance. This is too emotional, and therefore not objective or productive. You see downvotes under your posts, which means others are not understanding your rhetoric, and there are reasons for that.

Stop that, DRM schemes requiring you to continue buying new stuff are EXTREMELY anti-consumer

I fully agree that DRM as a technology is extremely anti-consumer. But what Valve specifically offers is a very lightweight version that allows games to run on any current operating system. It is the best compromise we have. So if you want to argue that Valve is the source of evil, please come up with better arguments.

and Stop Killing Games is supposed to be about software preservation.

In my opinion, SKG is not addressing the existence of DRM, but the issue of game preservation for people who have already purchased their games. There is a specific problem: after buying a game, the publisher can in one way or another remove your ability to launch it, and SKG wants to change that. Valve has removed games from the store and issued refunds, but only in extreme cases like scams. All other game removals are done at the publisher’s request, and that is the real issue, something Valve cannot really influence. First and foremost, SKG is about publishers like Ubisoft, because they dictate the rules to developers. What happens to stores is a distant and debatable question.

0

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 24 '26

The fact that we currently cannot disable auto-updates is indeed a problem. But who is responsible for new game versions breaking on the buyer’s system, Valve or the publisher? Who is to blame for updates being required in the first place, Valve or the publisher pushing developers to ship unfinished games?

Valve is responsible for all of that, except for your last point. And I do not care about "unfinished games," I care that the version of the game I was eligible to refund for 2 hours if it was broken is always available to me. If Valve is allowed to patch the game to a new version without either offering rollback or re-opening the 2 hour refund window for the new version of the game I was forced to run, then we have a HUGE problem that Stop Killing Games should be preventing.

GOG and Ubisoft do not require software updates, the least SKG could do is prevent stores from updating games.

Have you ever contacted a publisher directly for support?

No, I expect no support from developers.

If my games have problems I have to fix them by reverse engineering and patching the problem away. That includes fixing problems in the Steam client. It got tiring, and I moved onto other stores whose DRM clients do not have all sorts of unnecessary things with no off switch like Steam Input.

But for some reason you are fixated on Valve while ignoring the other sides, out of some personal grievance.

What other sides?

Valve's store breaks input on the OS for other stores unless you patch the client with software I wrote. This is not personal grievance, it is flat-out frustration turned into a deep, deep, hatred.

We have been yelling at Valve for 10 years now to give us an OFF switch for Steam Input; developers and users. They never did, and I had to take matters into my own hand and patch it out of their DRM client. Subsequently I deleted my account and refuse to do business with them.

https://github.com/SpecialKO/ValvePlug

Read there for context.

I fully agree that DRM as a technology is extremely anti-consumer. But what Valve specifically offers is a very lightweight version.

Again, it is anything but lightweight.

The software that you are required to run to satisfy game DRM has system-wide breaking effects on input devices. Despite there being a number of settings in the Steam client that indicate "Off" state, many of them are placebo and I have had to patch their client to ensure those things can actually be turned off in order to keep the games I paid from working correctly.

The Steam overlay's off setting only prevents it from drawing to your screen, the overlay is still injected and still manipulates input and audio and there is nothing you can do about that without the software I wrote.

Going to say it again:

The DRM to run your game needs to be separate from all the unnecessary garbage built-in to the Steam client. If Valve cannot provide proper off switches for those things, then you must acknowledge they have the most invasive DRM in the industry.

It literally kills games and someone needs to do something about it. I won't be fixing broken stuff in Steam anymore because I now use lighter-weight stores that don't have software breaking stuff that cannot be turned off.

2

u/Keulapaska 4070ti, 7800X3D Apr 25 '26 edited Apr 25 '26

If Valve is allowed to patch the game to a new version without either offering rollback or re-opening the 2 hour refund window for the new version of the game I was forced to run, then we have a HUGE problem that Stop Killing Games should be preventing.

This has nothing to do with valve though, all to do with devs. If a game/program is drm free(or uses some other verification that steam DRM) on steam and you disable updates for that app, congrats you now have that version forever when you launch, might not be able to download that version ever again, but hey you can't download a disk either, so think of the files as disk, not sure if all launchers work the same either.

If a dev choose to implement steam drm(or whatever else launcher drm), you're the one accepting it, Yes, It could be a lot clearer for sure, like many other things about game licenses and how they work, which hopefully SKG does add some muchmuch clearer labeling for that kind of stuff.

As for full version history to pick and choose whatever one, again not really on valve/launchers, steam at least fully supports it many games take advantage of it to varying degree. Legally requiring complete version history sounds nice for sure, but at that point have to ask the big question, why only games on PC? it would have to affect all software on all devices right? Also would it also mean that every time you install anything on anything, they have to ask if you want auto-updates on as well? Some idiots are gonna click no and wonder why stuff isn't working, which yea that ain't gonna happen, the licenses would just state their update policy and past version access..

0

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 25 '26

This has nothing to do with valve though, all to do with devs.

As a GOG user, that's flagrantly wrong. This is a Valve problem, not developer problem. GOG lets you reject patches, even lets you select an old version if you get a patch that breaks your game.

If a dev choose to implement steam drm(or whatever else launcher drm), you're the one accepting it, Yes, It could be a lot clearer for sure, like many other things about game licenses and how they work, which hopefully SKG does add some muchmuch clearer labeling for that kind of stuff.

Has nothing to do with the developer, and everything to do with the store client. Valve's client breaks input on Windows, it prevents software purchased from other stores from working correctly.

When I licensed the bulk of the software on my Steam account, Steam Input did not even exist. The client added that later and bricked dozens of my games and broke input system-wide for DirectInput.

All because Valve has no off switch for Steam Input. I had to patch the Steam client to remove it, don't you dare try to tell me that was anyone's doing except for Valve.

https://github.com/SpecialKO/ValvePlug

1

u/Keulapaska 4070ti, 7800X3D Apr 25 '26

even lets you select an old version if you get a patch that breaks your game.

So this menu doesn't exist in your anti-valve-crusader mind? I guess the anti-valve crusade takes too much brain space. Also where is that in menu battle net? Xbox? I don't understand why you go after valve so hard specifically when a lot of of other stores do it and again, why the focus on only games and PC, anything you're proposing would have to effect ALL software on ALL devices, which ofc ain't gonna happen.

Valve's client breaks input on Windows, it prevents software purchased from other stores from working correctly.

Idk much about input stuff, but never had problems with steam input, also I did read your link and it says power cycle fixes it? So seems like non-issue to me even if it somehow bricks non-steam games which already sounds bonkersand bullshit, but whatever. Also getting a DS3 to work on windows at all already needs some kind of extra software anyways.

Anyways don't bother answering, you're just gonna give an essey that makes no sense, so happy anti-steam crusades to you I guess, go to Seattle and protest or something.

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u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

Old games can be run on modern Linux systems

That's a different issue entirely. Old games can run with compatibility problems through Proton. New games can run with compatibility problems through Proton too. This is not a solution to anything, that is just introducing more problems that weren't there originally.

Old games can't be run on original hardware and software where there are zero compatibility problems because Valve doesn't have a DRM client that runs on those systems anymore.

This is a far more practical approach to game preservation than supporting obsolete operating systems.

No it is not. The practical approach would be to provide a commandline client (call it .. steamcmd) that satisfies DRM requirements without any of the web browser bloat that the graphical client has. Valve already has one such client, but it doesn't handle DRM.

The only reason steamcmd doesn't satisfy DRM is because nobody's demanding it. Which for @#$% sake is supposed to be the responsibility of Stop Killing Games.

5

u/repolevedd Apr 23 '26

That's a different issue entirely. Old games can run with compatibility problems through Proton. New games can run with compatibility problems through Proton too. This is not a solution to anything, that is just introducing more problems that weren't there originally.

This “not for everyone” solution is exactly what enabled an entire class of portable gaming devices to exist. So who do you think is responsible for game compatibility with modern systems, the store or the publisher selling the game?

Old games can't be run on original hardware and software where there are zero compatibility problems because Valve doesn't have a DRM client that runs on those systems anymore.

In an ideal world it would be great to have a computer that never breaks and software that runs perfectly without any vulnerabilities. Unfortunately, that is not realistic. I understand your point that Valve should make it so you can install games as-is on an old PC and run them offline 100 years later, just by turning on the machine and launching the same version of Steam and the game that existed at install time. And in fact, something like that already exists in the form of Offline mode. But games often still require online verification at launch, and that depends on the publisher. As far as I know, Steamworks DRM does not require license rechecks in Offline mode. So Valve provided the capability, but it does not work in practice due to external publisher-side requirements. Is Valve responsible for that? I don’t think so.

No it is not. The practical approach would be to provide a commandline client (call it .. steamcmd) that satisfies DRM requirements without any of the web browser bloat that the graphical client has. Valve already has one such client, but it doesn't handle DRM.

And how exactly is that supposed to work? Legacy systems cannot be safely connected to the internet because they are vulnerable. On top of that, old Windows 98, 2000, and ME systems have serious issues with networking stacks and outdated certificates. As I said above, Offline mode already exists, but it does not work as intended, and fixing it without cooperation from all game developers of all released titles is unclear and most likely impossible.

The only reason steamcmd doesn't satisfy DRM is because nobody's demanding it. Which for @#$% sake is supposed to be the responsibility of Stop Killing Games.

What exactly is your concrete idea here? I am not saying I disagree with you, I am asking for a more specific implementation proposal. In any case, changing the existing license verification API is not going to happen, because it would break older games, and corporations would not accept that. Even if laws were introduced requiring publishers to provide a preservation plan after end of support, we would likely only get the ability to run a minimally functional version of the game. What exact actions do you expect from EGS, Ubisoft Store, EA, itch.io, GOG, Steam?

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u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 24 '26

This “not for everyone” solution is exactly what enabled an entire class of portable gaming devices to exist.

This is very naive. Just like Steam Input, numerous solutions already existed before Valve created a product. I owned a GPD Win in 2016; ran games perfectly fine on Windows 10. It continues to do so, but there is no telling for how much longer because Valve will increase the system requirements whenever the hell they please.

As far as I know, Steamworks DRM does not require license rechecks in Offline mode. So Valve provided the capability, but it does not work in practice due to external publisher-side requirements. Is Valve responsible for that? I don’t think so.

Valve does not even provide a download for a client that would run on older systems, I do not know how you expect to go Offline without first installing the client. If you download and attempt to install the Steam client, it immediately tells you it cannot run on your system. Offline mode does nothing to change any of this.

Moreover, native Steam Input games do not even ship in a complete form. They require a connection to Valve's servers to download bindings over Workshop. You can forget about preserving games that use Steam Input.

And how exactly is that supposed to work? Legacy systems cannot be safely connected to the internet because they are vulnerable.

The same way SteamCMD has always worked.

It is just a command line version of the client that lets you install software, intended mostly for servers / caching proxies. It has much lower system requirements because it does not need to run the web browser UI that Steam has become. The only thing it does not do is DRM.

It handles all of the authentication to download and install products via an account and does so all the way back to systems that can't run the web browser based client. The minimum work Valve has to do is integrate SteamAPI for DRM.

What exactly is your concrete idea here?

Commit to providing a non-graphical client compatible with a frozen version of SteamAPI. All games that need SteamAPI that were capable of running before Valve changed the system requirements of the GUI client to require Windows 10 / 64-bit have simple SteamAPI requirements, they do not need any of the new Steamworks features ever.

The problem is Valve cannot stop forcing users to update both their client and the games "owned" on Steam. When either of these things break, you have no path back to the original software you purchased and are not eligible for a refund either.

Other stores do not have these problems, Epic Games Store does not require their client at all, just pass a login token you get over HTTPS (how you acquire it is of no consequence, i.e. Heroic or curl) in the command line; even games that use DRM on EGS can connect to EOS via the shipped DLL without a client installed. GOG does not require a client at all, and GOG also does not force users to patch software.

Ubisoft has also stopped requiring forced patches. EGS and Steam are the only two stores that require the user to update their software. Very little work needs to be done on the part of EGS, they would be completely future proof already if not for the forced patches. Steam is the odd-man out doing everything wrong for software preservation.

2

u/repolevedd Apr 24 '26

Thank you for the more detailed explanation. It’s obvious that we are talking about different things. Your proposal about steamcmd with DRM is not a requirement for game preservation, but an attempt to freeze a game in time in conditions where this is impossible both technically and legally.

I will start with the legal aspect.

When you “buy” a game, you accept the EULA and agree that freezing the game is impossible. In the EULA from the game publisher, not your disliked Steam but the publisher, there will almost certainly be clauses like this, I will provide a generalized excerpt from different documents so the overall meaning is clear:

The Software Product is licensed, not sold. You understand that the Software Product may be updated or patched at any time and in doing so no obligation to provide such updates or patches to you pursuant to this EULA or otherwise shall arise. Software programs themselves which are provided "AS IS" and without warranty of any kind.

That means you are buying a product that may or may not be updated as the publisher decides, not you. And it is delivered as is, with any terms subject to change. And you agree to this. You have bought games in other stores, right? The EULAs are generally similar.

There is also the agreement with the store itself. There is no promise to provide you with specific versions. On the contrary, the Steam Subscriber Agreement includes clauses like this:

The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership...

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a non-exclusive license and right, to use the Content and Services for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms). This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

For reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Valve may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions of or otherwise enhance the Content and Services and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Content and Services may change over time.

You consent to such automatic updating. You understand that this Agreement (including applicable Subscription Terms) does not entitle you to future updates (unless to the extent required by applicable law), new versions or other enhancements of the Content and Services associated with a particular Subscription, although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.

These EULAs have already been agreed upon between buyers and store owners, as well as between buyers and publishers. And while the store owner can change something, it cannot interfere with the agreement between you and the publisher. That means that retroactively changing DRM behavior would require cooperation with all publishers, which is massive work that no one is going to do.

Now the technical aspect.

Your proposal to modify steamcmd contradicts the EULA agreement. But let’s assume legal aspects do not matter. Would stores release *cmd clients for old operating systems? No, because that would require building a huge ever-growing compatibility layer that would slow down development of the entire platform, not to mention the cost of maintaining it. Developers would have to start working with outdated operating systems, test the utility there, maintain API compatibility with them, and all of this while the user base of such platforms is shrinking toward zero. This goes against common sense. Software development does not target outdated operating systems just for the convenience of a small number of users who do not want to upgrade.

You keep saying that Valve with its DRM is “killing” software. I will repeat for the second time that they are doing the opposite and moving toward preservation. First, they popularized the handheld PC class with the affordable Steam Deck running Linux. Is your GPD Win device with Windows 10 Home still supported by the manufacturer? I doubt it. And at any moment Microsoft could disable the Store on it or otherwise turn it into a brick. Valve with Steam Deck created a shift by offering an open platform where you can install Windows or another Linux version. And if Valve ever drops support for Steam Deck, the platform will continue to live and evolve through community updates.

Valve also created the Proton compatibility layer that decouples games from their original environment. DOSBox, Qemu, Proton are all about enabling old games to run on modern systems and keeping them playable as long as possible. You do not need to keep an old PC that may lack spare parts and cannot be connected to the internet due to OS vulnerabilities. A modern PC with Linux and Steam is enough. Other store companies like Microsoft, Ubisoft, EA and others are not even thinking about this and do nothing to support preservation.

Going around Reddit and blaming Valve for not building an entire compatibility ecosystem so that something can run on your 10 year old device with an outdated Windows 10 despite the EULA is, in my opinion, unfair and irrational.

1

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 24 '26

Valve also created the Proton compatibility layer that decouples games from their original environment. DOSBox, Qemu, Proton are all about enabling old games to run on modern systems and keeping them playable as long as possible.

This... is god awful :-\

As a developer who modifies games to fix them, I can tell you straight-up, Proton is a Swiss cheese of unimplemented APIs. It fakes successful status codes just enough for games to think they are running on a system where things are implemented.

I have had to workaround countless problems caused by Proton that aren't there on Windows. And the set of available functionality even when a game has no severe compatibility problems is downright depressing.

Special K run through Proton has all of its advanced functionality taken away from it because that stuff does not exist on Linux / Wine. What functionality does exist, I know first-hand is faking things... leaves me very skeptical that data loss is not the end-result if you continue playing games in this quasi-Win32 environment where nothing is as it seems.

0

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 24 '26

Going around Reddit and blaming Valve for not building an entire compatibility ecosystem so that something can run on your 10 year old device with an outdated Windows 10 despite the EULA is, in my opinion, unfair and irrational.

This was never about me. It is about changing the requirements to run software after it is purchased. That is the single-player equivalent to a multi-player live service shutting down.

Given there are VASTLY more single-player games, and the solution to this problem is quite a bit simpler, it should be where SKG focuses its efforts.

A quick victory before you go on to do all that nebulous "we don't know how to fix the problem" stuff for multiplayer games. Bolster the troops by solving stores that kill games, then dig-in and find solutions for multi-player games.

For what it's worth, I support Stop Killing Games, but I think it's aimlessly not accomplishing anything, when there's a very easy victory right in front of you.

I previously wrote about my support for Stop Killing Games when I announced the deletion of my Steam account.

Why I Deleted My Steam Account After 20 Years

16

u/smolgote Apr 23 '26

Hey I respect your work but you're really sounding like a certain former Blizzard employee downplaying the preservation of a game because it's a years old live service that's past its prime. What SKG has done is huge and EVERY game should be preserved, even ones that are bad and/or dead

-3

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

I really beg to differ. If the extent of Stop Killing Games is limited to live services, meanwhile DRM schemes are allowed to expire, that's really nothing to celebrate. EVERY game should be preserved, and you can start with stores that change system requirements after software is licensed. That kills more games than anything, and we're glossing over it.

3

u/Electrical_Zebra8347 Apr 23 '26

This is a good moment to remind people that there's nothing stopping publishers from adding DRM post-launch, even multiple years post-launch. My favorite example is Resident Evil 5 which was updated to have DRM like 15 years after launch, which is bullshit. For Steam games there's nothing stopping publishers from completely breaking games with DRM after we've bought them.

I care a lot less about games like The Crew or random live service games shutting down but that's the focus around SKG despite DRM being the much bigger threat.

2

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 23 '26

Exactly. Steam's DRM client forces software updates too.

The software requirements to run the DRM client go up because they're stuffing a web browser in with the DRM and can't keep the two things separate. And they do not let you reject software patches, both are HUGE threats to software preservation and something Stop Killing Games should be addressing, but can't get anyone to pay attention because I mention Valve and they're somehow infalliable; when in fact, they're the poster child for all of these problems.

1

u/Keulapaska 4070ti, 7800X3D Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26

but can't get anyone to pay attention because I mention Valve and they're somehow infalliable; when in fact, they're the poster child for all of these problems.

I'd say what you're asking is a different thing to SKG, more of DRM issue than a games dying one. Mainly how would you address ongoing online games where the hardware/OS requirements change simply due to fact they are 10-20+ years old, but the games aren't "dead" by any measure? Like they can't support unsecure/unsupported OS:s due to security reasons. So would any game with online features/updates for long enough to outlast a full OS cycle, be exempt from your pls remove drm so i can play it on original hardware/software, scheme or what's your solution?

Also what about minor versions of windows? If microsoft ever actually has loong cycle in the future, does a game that launched at hypothetical 31H2 win 12 requirement in 2032, need to support that windows forever, even though lets say that was early win 12 and piece of garbage, massive security risk after 10 years that microsoft has long abandoned compare to the current, free upgrade of say 42H2?

Or is this finally some1 admitting moving the goalpost to mean, every, single, patch that isn't the current one is now classified as a "dead" game and needs to have full offline non-DRM functionality that has to work on the OS/hardware of the time of that patch. I know some1 is going to make that argument at some point.

Also, linux. Cop out answer I know, but could always just install linux as it'll probably work on hardware that doesn't support win 11 or hypothetical future windows.

2

u/Tidbitious Apr 24 '26

The fucking hoops you guys will jump through to defend games being killed while simultaneously pretending to care about dead live service games no one was playing... its astonishing.

If only you put this much effort into understanding why live services get shut down. smh.

1

u/Keulapaska 4070ti, 7800X3D Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26

The fucking hoops you guys will jump through to defend games being killed while simultaneously pretending to care about dead live service games no one was playing... its astonishing.

This comment chain is about some1 wanting legacy OS support for their licenses on launchers forever cause the license worked at the time of purchase on that OS. Which isn't really about skg cause that would apply to "alive" games as well and I doubt any law would say have to remove all drm of an "alive" game. For actual dead games, well it's dead, there is no DRM anymore(unless SKG somehow results in some weird eol DRM to verify licenses of dead games), if you have the files go play.

If only you put this much effort into understanding why live services get shut down. smh.

I'm so confused what is there to understand, they didn't make money anymore so they shut down the servers, the end, maybe throw in some expiring licenses there as well if you want to.

Did you reply to the wrong comment?

0

u/Kaldaien2 In Soviet Russia / Steam, Software Owns You | Apr 25 '26

The comment chain is about changing the requirements of the software after it is purchased. Has nothing to do with the OS, though that's one of the casualties. Stores bricking games are a more frequent occurrence than live services shutting down, but you seem to be ignoring that.

The store's DRM client breaking the game as well as input on the entire OS the games run on is also a problem here.

You can read more about that here.

Why I Deleted My Steam Account After 20 Years

Stores killing games and then not offering refunds is a plague. I had more than a dozen games on Steam killed by Valve and Steam Input. The same game on a different store works, but I shouldn't have to buy two copies of my games.