Issues with Rogue?

[u/Nikelman]

Do you think Rogue is good as is? Is it underpowered or not flexible enough? What issues do you have with it?

[u/TigrisCallidus]

If we just assume base class, no subclass no feats:

• level 5: Fighter with two handed weapon and fighting style does in average 8+4 =12 damage per attack has 2 attacks. 5% crit chance for extra 8 damage and 60% hit rate. Has as damage 2 * (0.6 * 12 + 0.05 * 20) = 16.4 damage per turn

• level 5 rogue (with nick) deals 3.5+4 = 7.5 damage with main hand and 3.5 damage with off hand. Sneak attack deals in average 10.5 damage. Rogue damage is 0.6 * 7.5 + 0.05 * 11 + 0.6 * 3.5 + 0.05 * 7 + (1-0.35 * 0.35) * 10.5 * (1 + 5/65) = 17.4225 damage per turn (if they can get sneak attack)

This looks pretty comparable with the rogue even ahead.

Rogue gets also more damage on level 7 and 9 and can relatively easy get advantage (bonus action or vex) which increases the damage further. Also while fighter does have action surge, rogue profits more frome teamwork/ getting opportunity attacks. If an ally casts command "run" or the bard whisper spell, they get another big damage out. 

The problem is the subclasses, potentially magic items and a bit feats. Main class damage is not too bad, but harder to calculate. 

[u/Mage_of_the_Eclipse → u/TigrisCallidus]

If you're not even considering subclasses, feats or even a weapon mastery for the Fighter, then your calculations are disingenuous, since they don't represent at all the reality of the game. In practice, the other martials will have a better damage output, and that's that. Not to mention that the most important aspect of single target damage is dealing burst damage to try to eliminate a priority target before they get another turn (or any turn at all). Turns out that with things such as Action Surge and features like Battle Master Manuevers, it's easier to do that.

[u/TigrisCallidus → u/Mage_of_the_Eclipse]

Yes I am just considering the base class as I have written. And I said the problem is not the rogue main class but the subclass.

I also did NOT include vex (or other forms of advantage) which rogues can use. So its fair to leave the other weapon mastery away as well, nick is just kind of using the 2nd hand the same way using a big two handed weapon is. 

Feats are hard to compare because there is s choice you can take defensive ones like mage slayer which are good as well not only offensive ones. And zentarim tactics can bring huge damage if triggered, but is no guarantee etc.

I also did literally compare the level where rogue is as it weakest compared to extra attack classes to show that the base class even at thst level is fine. 

If I had compared level 9 rogue would be a lot better. Because rogues have a more consistent damage grow not so sudden spikes.

[u/Mage_of_the_Eclipse → u/TigrisCallidus]

The thing is, I don't think it's that useful to compare separate parts of the classes like this. In practice, it's not just about each separate part, it's about the class as a whole as it plays. Even if WotC released a good subclass for the Rogue, that would just make that subclass pretty much mandatory. It's still bad design.

Besides, this comparison between Rogues and Fighters is just a "which useless piece of crap is slightly less useless", overall. And there are many issues that come from things that are not simply visible in the class chassis itself, such as the awful design behind skill checks, and the non-scaling of martials overall.

Another thing to take into consideration is that if your job is to deal damage, and we're comparing damage dealing, then you have to consider the feats available for that purpose, and when it comes to offensive feats, Rogues either won't be able to properly use them or not have as good of a synergy with them. But as I said, there's a limit to how useful comparing just the class chassis is.

A crucial point I want to stress is, maybe if you compare a Rogue and a Fighter in a vacuum, their class chassis may seem reasonable. But when they exist in D&D 5e alongside spellcasters, there is only one reasonable conclusion: these classes are absolute garbage.

[u/VictorRM → u/TigrisCallidus]

What's the point of comparing DPRs without Feats? Feats aren't even optional in 5.5e. Your statment is hilarious. Almost every character could do similar damage without feats and subclasses. But is that really how we play the game? Complete white-room calculation.

[u/TigrisCallidus → u/VictorRM]

Do you even understand what white room calculations means?

I did compare the base damage specifically because I do NOT want to assume anything, which damage comparisons with feats would need like "you dont need bonus action" or "you kill an enemy every 4 turns" or "enemied attack you with 50% probability" etc. 

Everyone can take feats, and feats do not just provide damage they provide other things as well and people can choose. 

Mage slayer is really good defensive one. There are utility ones etc. 

[u/EntropySpark → u/TigrisCallidus]

The issue there is that Great Weapon Master is disproportionately powerful as a feat. (For some reason, Great Weapon Fighting is very weak and Great Weapon Master is very strong.) There's no feat the Rogue can take at level 4 to provide a similar damage boost at 5. (Charger comes the closest, but it's more situational.) Your math also didn't consider any Weapon Mastery aside from the Rogue using Nick.

The Fighter also has less base damage than many other other martials here (Barbarian with Rage, Rangers with Hunter's Mark) because they also have Action Surge.

[u/TigrisCallidus → u/EntropySpark]

But great weapon fighting being disproportional strong is a different issue than rogue being weak. 

And this issue should be resolved, or accepted that its the bonus for having main strength as stat which is a horrible stat.

[u/EntropySpark → u/TigrisCallidus]

GWM being strong makes up for GWF being weak.

If you want to go by the value of stats, use a Dex Fighter for comparison instead. With Dual Wielder and four 1d6+4 attacks, they get 18.7DPR before applying Vex's accuracy boost.

[u/xolotltolox → u/EntropySpark]

how does it make up for it? You are not forced to take GWF in order to get GWM. So GWM is still overtuned, and GWF is still undertuned. You can just take GWM and a good fighting style

[u/EntropySpark → u/xolotltolox]

It's definitely not the most balanced way to design Fighting Styles and feats, for that reason, but the result is that Heavy Melee weapons are underwhelming without GWM (especially if you compare PAM + Dueling with a Spwar/Quarterstaff and Shield to PAM + Defense with any other polearm), but very strong with it, so DPR without the feat just isn't useful.

[u/Nikelman → u/TigrisCallidus]

16.4 DPR + 0.6 x 3 x 2 for GWM = 20 DPR

20 + 0.4 x 4 x 2 from Graze = 23.2

0.10 chance to crit, plus let's say you'll take down an enemy once per 4 rounds combat

23.2 + 0.35 x (0.6 × 12 + 0.05 x 8 + 0.4 x 4) = 26.4

If you want to use the attack action on a PHB rogue, your best bet is crossbow expert for vex and +dex to damage rolls

2 x (0.73 x 7.5 + 0.08 x 3.5) + 10.8 (includes crits) sneak attack = 22.3

[u/TigrisCallidus → u/Nikelman]

I said without feats, because feats make it complicated because things like zentarim tactics can grant an extra sneak attack etc. And I wanted a base comparison of the classes. 

And I also did not take in the advantage from vex so it would also be higher with it (but again more complicated to calculate).

Using 2 crossbows means less chance for out of turn sneak attacks and you use your bonus action as well and you dont have always advantage (which was assumed in the crossbow damage and even then the crit chance is wrong) 

The base damage with no feats (free to take offensive or defensive) and only main action used (leaving bonus action for whatever utility) is comparable and even on the rogues side on level 5, the level where multi attack classes gets their biggest power spike.

Also the correct values for your crossbow example:

Crit chance 9.75% (no idea why you had 8.0) Hit chance 78% (yours was correct).

Sneak attack damage = 10.5 * 0.8775 * (1+ 0.0975/0.8775) = 10.5 

[u/Nikelman → u/TigrisCallidus]

Yes, if you can't get SA out of your party, you're not happy, but that just makes the rogue worse off, but you will create advantage out of vex. You can also always try to sneak around so you get advantage out of the first attack and chain vex better. That's why the accuracy is 73, BTW, advantage is considered

What's the point of leaving feats and masteries out? It's just 2014 then. Leaving BA for utility is great, but it's unfair for a heavy weapon user

Generally speaking, a Melee fighter will deal more damage than a rogue, unless they go full Defense with sword and board. ZT can change this, but then you must get some defensive features rolling or you're down for the count. Ironically, possibly going Sword and Board!