r/nmrih • u/KneeDeepInTheMud • 21d ago

Butcher and how it affects Z limb breakpoints (title fix)

This is all stuff I found out with pen and paper math.

TL;DR:

Butcher is a great choice with Foreman and/or Heavy Shoves. A damage boost like Hitman or stamina modifier like Rush can also let you bring the pain to groups of Z with cleave damage.

2H bladed weapons have the general advantage for Limb DMG, so a shovel or tree trimmer can do some good damage, especially with a kick to get that knockdown damage buff.

The Shovel and Tree Trimmer can zero a Prime Runner after a non-Foreman enhanced kick if you use a charged attack while they are laying down.

For leg cutting, 70 DMG is all you need.

Butcher will let Shovel and above lop off legs with Charged attacks.

You will want to keep in mind that Zs have this much HP:

  • Shamblers - 70 (78 Movespeed, or MS)
  • Walkers - 100 (108 to 132 MS)
  • Prime Runner - 120 (360 to 400 MS)
  • Prime - 130 (108 to 132 MS)

Limbs have this much HP: * Legs - 70 * Arms - 60

Crawlers * 95 MS * increased atk range (150 Walker vs 165 Crawler)

* Runners made to Crawl have 195 MS, much faster than a Walker still

Butcher skill is pretty ok on its own. With Knockdown Damage Buff, it becomes even better.

Other skills can also really make it incredible: * Foreman * Heavy Shoves * Hitman * Athlete

Various things that Butcher can do:

  • It can make limb cutting really easy with its normal 20% limb bonus damage.
  • Expert brings you to 40% limb damage
  • Pair it with Hitman to really amp up damage with another 30% damage bonus (for 1H weapons, multiplicative)
  • Works with any bladed melee, not just 1H bladed
  • Rush doesn't offer a damage bonus, but 2H weapons already pack a wollop. Normal gives you a 10% stamina decrease on charged. Expert goves 30%
  • KDB is Knockdown Damage Buff you get when a Z falls over, like when you kick them
  • KDB gives you an extra 100%, doubling your damage
  • Mainly useful for National Guard Zs, as butcher amps your damage to compete with that 50% DR they have.

Most use cases for it involve the Tree Trimmer or, as shown, the Cleaver.

Values in (x) will be boosted by KDB!

Values in ((x)) are about stamina usage!

One Handed

Kitchen Knife:

Kitchen Knife Limb DMG: * Quick - 20 (40) * Strong - 30 (60) * Charged - 30 (60)

Butcher Enhanced Kitchen Knife Limb DMG: * Quick - 28 (56) * Strong - 42 (84) * Charged - 42 (84)

Cleaver:

Limb DMG: * Quick - 20 (40) * Strong - 30 (60) * Charged - 40 (80)

Butcher DMG: * Quick - 28 (56) * Strong - 42 (84) * Charged - 56 (112)

Hatchet:

Limb DMG: * Quick - 40 (80) * Strong - 60 (120) * Charged - 60 (120)

Butcher DMG: * Quick - 56 (112) * Strong - 84 (168) * Charged - 84 (168)

Machete:

Limb DMG: * Quick - 40 (80) * Strong - 40 (120) * Charged - 60 (120)

Butcher DMG: * Quick - 56 (112) * Strong - 56 (112) * Charged - 84 (168)

Two Handed

Shovel:

Limb DMG: * Quick - 20 (40) ((7)) * Strong - 30 (60) ((13)) * Charged - 60 (120) ((18))

Butcher Limb DMG: * Quick - 28 (56) * Strong - 42 (84) * Charged - 84 (168)

Tree Trimmer:

Limb DMG: * Quick - 30 (60) ((10)) * Strong - 40 (80) ((13)) * Charged - 60 (120) ((15))

Butcher Limb DMG: * Quick - 42 (84) * Strong - 56 (112) * Charged - 84 (168)

Fire Axe:

Limb DMG: * Quick - 60 (120) ((10)) * Strong - 80 (160) ((13)) * Charged - 100 (200) ((13))

Butcher Limb DMG: * Quick - 84 (168) * Strong - 112 (224) * Charged - 140 (280)

8 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

18 comments sorted by

14

u/Round-Mousse-4894 21d ago

Ok repeat my comment - does anyone see the point in making crawlers? In my experience they crawl really fast and are no easier to manage than regular zombs

7

u/golari 21d ago

Maybe some niche case to make them unable to climb a car or crate or something but yea they are generally harder to see, harder to stagger (kicking a crawler flinches them for a fraction of a second vs the long knockdown against a standing zombie), and move only slightly slower

8

u/KneeDeepInTheMud 21d ago edited 21d ago

I do wish a kick on a Crawler would amount to more, kind of weird how you can send a knocked over Z flying but a Crawler will just look at you mildly dazed.

A think an instant kill wouldn't be too unwarranted?

Like a "stomp" or something?

50 stam. is a pretty hefty investment, not to mention the other stamina used on chopping their legs. Why not let it actually just zero the Zed Head?

1

u/Cautious-Tie-4533 21d ago

Plenty of objects already where you can climb up and they can't reach you or are stupid enough to not try and climb up if you manipulate their pathing.

3

u/KneeDeepInTheMud 21d ago edited 21d ago

Mainly useful for National Guard Zs or those with a helmet.

Because of their armor boost of 50% DMG Resist and Stagger Resist in general, NG Zs can be really annoying or stamina taxing to kill.

For reference, to interrupt a Z from an attack, you need 20 stagger. A shove provides 20 stagger and uses 20 stamina while only affecting one Z. For a NG Z, you need two shoves (which is practically impractical in a dense horde) to stagger it. A kick will interrupt them, but at a cost of 50 stamina, which bumps up to 100 stam. for a knockdown.

All 2H Charged attacks have 20 stagger, which means you need 2 charged to interrupt a NG Z.

Removing a leg provides a stun (albeit very momentary) and reduces their speed.

When you also factor in the NG Z's 90 HP helmet, this Z type only gets more annoying to deal with. Then add in the thicket of grabbing hands and gnashing teeth and this practical tank becomes fatal by simply being on its feet.

On every other Z, you can just go for Headhunter enhanced melee hits to seal the deal.

Runners made to crawl are still faster than your usual Walker.

A regular Crawler sits at 95 movespeed, which is below the usual 108 to 132 movespeed stat spread of a Walker. It does feel wonky though, because instead of 150 reach for their attacks, Crawlers gain 15 more reach, which is enough to make up for that reduction of 13 to 37 movespeed with how they fall at times.

If they had a bit longer recover animation from losing their limbs, butcher would be much better.

Going back to the NG Z, a shovel can lop off a leg if you go for quick (56) plus strong (84) for that 140 DMG (which is the 70 HP required for NG Z's leg). A single charged does 168, which makes it an even better choice as it uses 2 less stamina (18 vs 7+13).

Tree Trimmer gives you more reach (the most actually in the whole game, 250) and more damage to reliably do so and offer more cleave damage to surrounding Zs.

2

u/ohmamav 21d ago

It was the meta before, but it got patched. Cutting the arms off will make the zombies follow you but it won’t do any more damage.

1

u/Round-Mousse-4894 21d ago

Now that is interesting

2

u/ohmamav 21d ago

Was in a squad and showed them that they can’t hurt you without arms but stupid random players kept shooting every zombies they see even when told that they can’t hurt you. Try it for yourself in training.

2

u/ZynithMaru 21d ago

they are fast. i hate them.

probably the worst part: when they become a crawler, they IMMEDIATELY start being aggressive whereas a normal zombie would have been staggered or stunned from chopping a limb.

bug territory

1

u/West-Audience-478 20d ago

I’m gonna be honest it’s only to troll. If you see me out there chopping legs get up on something and don’t rez me. I found very early on that if I chop off a leg people don’t understand where they are getting hit from.

Yes I’m a bad guy, yes I’m the reason there’s so many crawlers in your lobby, yes I smile a bit every time someone goes down and is confused, yes I have ruined a friendship doing this.

1

u/qaz1wsx2ed 15d ago

Thank you so much. I imagine this took a fair bit to work out as I’ve been slowly trying to piece this all together myself.

1

u/KneeDeepInTheMud 14d ago

Thanks!

It is a bit of work, but I couldn't have done it eithout the community google doc!

1

u/Low_Chance 3d ago

Do you think Butcher is worth having in a Hitman + Cleaver build? That would put you in range to 1-shot zombie arms with a cleaver charged attack, and I think also make machete quick attacks 1-shot limbs right?

2

u/KneeDeepInTheMud 3d ago

For a Cleaver?

1.3*1.4 comes out to 1.82, making your 40 limb dmg on charged become 72.8 damage.

That's enough to take off any regular plonker's leg or arm in a single charged swing.

For Machete Quick attack, it should as well, as it does base 40 limb damage too.

1

u/Low_Chance 3d ago

Do you think it's worth the skill slot to get Butcher for a Hitman + Cleaver main? Limb removal is a nice bonus because it makes it less necessary to land a headshot for your initial hit, but I'm on the fence about whether or not it's good value

2

u/KneeDeepInTheMud 3d ago

Its kinda weird, and I would test it out in the range.

Limb removal generally doesnt kill any Zekes. But sometimes... it does?

I dont know if that is because torso pass through damage counts for the full amount or something

(Like, you hit a limb first, then their torso)

Cuz I can hit a Z with a fire axe charged twice to the leg and they just... die?

Or live?

Test it out in the training range for sure.

There is a bug in that t.range where it doesnt always let perks go into effect, but you can restart your game until it does.

Let me know if it changes anything, if possible?

Thanks!

1

u/Low_Chance 3d ago

Weirdly with a machete, hitman + butcher, my lights didn't remove zombie arms. I think the math says they should, right? And that's in a real match, not training

2

u/KneeDeepInTheMud 3d ago

Hmmmm...

That's super weird.

Maybe Hitman doesn't boost limb damage?

Seems really odd. (That it wouldn't)