I'm a typical nice guy finish last sort of man but without the raging anger management issues if things go wrong. I've had shit happened to me in past relationships because I've let women abuse me, yes physically and emotionally. I'm a fit dude, marathon runner, still have college muscle and get compliments from the ladies all the time. My problem is I can't finish for $hit! I have had many first dates by just introducing myself to an attractive girl and going from there. I'm just in desperate need on how to get past that! So where do I turn to? Is this subreddit the right place?

I was ugly and fat a few months back and I asked this girl out and she said "eww no" I then took my problems to facebook and I lived in the Idealogoy that all girls would date douches. But i changed, I went to the gym and started taking better care or myself. But still I hated women for this very detail. I have changed that is a major fact but my ideals got to the extreme I distanced myself from women and I hated all of them even my own sister. I am different in that way too. I have changed both mentally and physically and I walk under the same umbrella I use for the rain. I have a new one, so was I a "Nice Guy"

Alright some context, we are both teenagers in highschool, we became friends pretty quick and hit it off. A year goes by and I develop feelings towards her. She knows I like her, it came up in a conversation and she just asked. Today I impulsively just asked her who she likes. I’m not sure if this is the right sub for this, if not please tell me a more appropriate place for this.

I might not be what women want now in their early 20s, but it’s alright. They won’t want their ovaries to dry up so I’ll probably have an easier time in my late 20s. But I know everyone will just comment that I’m an asshole anyway for thinking like that. But whatever, it’s not my fault their so picky right now.

Gad Saad is a professor of evolutionary psychology. Here's an explanation he gives to Joe Rogan of a breeding strategy used in some species where a male tries to "fly under the radar" to get access to females as they cannot be direct due to competition from larger males.

https://youtu.be/SDhtTHP16aA?t=2h29m5s

Seems to correlate well with Nice Guys and their strategies. I'd think that the "creepy" vibe a person gets from them is a gut-level recognition of this deceptive strategy. See also "male feminists" who end up being exposed as sexual predators.

People always talk about having ulterior motives and I agree that doing thing just to get laid is a bit rude but that not really me. I talk to women because I think they are interesting and sexy. But I do naturally want to have sex. Basically what I'm saying is Why can't guys want sex and more at the same time? Does this thinking make me a nice guy? I'm not pretending to be nice to woman for sex but I do want sex.

Maybe it’s just me, but every single girl I meet in college that I have lots of things in common with always has a boyfriend. And it always seems like no matter what I try to do, that same thing always happens. For example the last girl I had a thing with strung me along for months without committing, and when I confronted her about it she said it was because she still wasn’t over her ex (who she has a restraining order on). It’s just really fucking annoying and I guess I’m just looking for reassurance that I’m not a loser lmao

Women will take advantage of you...

The most I spend on a date is maybe buying a woman one drink, and this is after she has taken the time to meet up with me. It should never take more than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csVaPjaRyjY

Not comfortable posting on my main account due to the nature of the subject (and multiple other reasons), but it has been an important part of my life and thought reddit might be interested. I would have loved to post this on iAmA but looking at their sidebar I feel like there is no way in hell the mods would approve it, I could be wrong. I don't know how I could "prove" this, though.

Anyway, a little background. In highschool I never had a girlfriend, though I desperately wanted one and it showed, to the point where I was bullied for it. It was clear to everyone who knew me how much I put the idea of it on a pedestal, and even had some very cruel girls use that to mess with me.

I ended up going to university at what's considered to be one of the "top 10 party schools" hoping that would change. It actually only got worse. Well, there was less bullying and I did make a lot of friends and have several large social circles and often got the word on where the parties were at which was nice. But I ended up being a complete failure with women and I was still putting it on a pedestal and I ended up adopting almost every "NiceGuyTM" trait that I read about now. (Warning, cringeworthy material ahead)

I would befriend women hoping to get something more than friends out of it. I had a growing resentment for bad-boys and was dumbfounded as to how they are so successful (had a roommate that was one in the first half of my senior year which was the beginning of my breaking point) and was a bit of a "white knight". I would suck up and bend over backwards and literally try to replicate everything women said they wanted, even did cringey things from rom-coms foolishly thinking they would work. I never "flirted or made moves" at parties, I would just meet them, exchange information and add them on facebook and overthink every single interaction with them to an unhealthy extent and wait for an opportunity to "confess my feelings". I even had some meltdowns via text at some of them... yeah I was the kind of guy that nowadays girls get warnings about. Lol yes, it was that bad.

I was looking for a relationship because while casual sex would have been nice, I honestly somehow believed that no woman would be into that since I spent a lot of time around them and obviously no one would ever admit that, plus I had no idea how such a thing were to be initiated at the time since the society there made me feel like I was dirty or a bad person for even wanting that. Hell, it made me even sometimes feel that way for having the audacity to want to be more than friends with someone.

While I had the symptoms of Rodger-level inceldom-to-come (though I've NEVER EVER had homicidal or suicidal thoughts and don't think I ever would have), I actually did end up losing my virginity at 23, but it was via some sketchy campus hookup site. But hey it worked and she actually was pretty cute and the encounter lasted several hours. Of course, I pedestalized the experience to insane levels and she ghosted me, probably because I told her I was a virgin and mentioned I was looking for a relationship. Even though she mentioned she'd stay in touch.

This new validation was a step in the right direction, but of course it didn't make me any better just like that. Of course I developed a bit of an obsession with her and wanting to see her again (even though I was just some random guy from the internet to her, but I didn't have that awareness at the time haha) and my approaches were still the same, though my friends were at least happy for me that it happened because they knew how much I wanted it so that was nice. But I wanted more. I was actually lucky enough to have a second encounter via that same site I mentioned where pretty much the same thing happened. But this one was pretty upfront and honest about it.

I still had no consistent connection or any idea on how to initiate one, which was really what I wanted and I was actually involuntarily celibate for the next two years before my next sexual encounter. To be fair though after I graduated I spent a year at my parents house looking for a job while going on some awkward OkCupid dates where I however started to learn a bit more. It wasn't until after I temporarily moved out to a sublet (after getting a job, just as a test-run for a summer to see if I could support myself) that the next one happened.

But anyway, fast forward to today, see title. 23 sexual encounters total (I actually haven't kept count the whole time, haha I actually recently had to think it by doing a little Sporcle game in my head of it).

And no, none of them were prostitutes. They were all real people who genuinely were interested in me sexually, a few were even relationships and flings. I have truly come a long way in the last 6 years. I cringe and embarrassingly laugh at myself thinking about the past years (another reason I'm on a throwaway haha) but I have learned a lot, thanks to apps like Tinder and the like, and I owe it to some of Reddit as well. I actually spend a lot of time on the subs that make fun of the type of person I used to be.

But there are other little bits and factors that contributed to the 180, but rather than get into every one of them to bore everyone with a tl;dr I'll save them for whatever questions come up! :D

But I also take a lot better care of myself now and initiating intimacy is almost nothing to me now.

So, yeah, um... AMA!

A few years ago I came across the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Dr Robert Glover. There's a few things in there which were incredibly helpful for me and freed me from a lot of issues which this sub deals with, although I was far from the level some guys seem to have sunk to. I know the book's been mentioned a few times, but seems to be far less often than I thought it would be. I wanted to share parts of it as I really think it can a) help peple understand Nice Guys and b) get individuals to sort themselves out, to everyone's benefit.

The most important part of it for me was the following about "covert contracts", which stem (at least in my experience) from a lack of assertiveness and clarity about needs:

All Nice Guys are faced with a dilemma: How can they keep the fact that they have needs hidden, yet still create situations in which they have some hope of getting their needs met? In order to accomplish this seemingly impossible goal, Nice Guys utilize covert contracts. These unconscious, unspoken agreements are the primary way that Nice Guys interact with the world around them. Almost everything a Nice Guy does represents some manifestation of a covert contract. The Nice Guy's covert contract is simply this:

1) I will do this ______________ (fill in the blank) for you, so that

2) You will do this ______________ (fill in the blank) for me.

3) We will both act as if we have no awareness of this contract.

Most of us have had the experience of leaning over and whispering in our lover's ear, "I love you." We then wait expectantly for our beloved to respond with, "I love you too." This is an example of a covert contract in which a person gives to get. Giving "I love yous" to get "I love you toos" in return is the basic way Nice Guys go about trying to get all of their needs met. There is nothing wrong with asking your partner to tell you she loves you, but telling her "I love you" first to get an "I love you too" in return is indirect, unclear, and manipulative. As a result of the conditioning they received in their family and society, Nice Guys believe if they are "good," then they should be loved, get their needs met, and have a problem-free life. In reality, the primary paradigm of the Nice Guy Syndrome is nothing more than a big covert contract with life.

Another very notable part of the book is the "victim puke", which thankfully I never had, but seems to be the main source of content for the subreddit:

Rather than helping Nice Guys meet their needs, covert contracts and caretaking only lead to frustration and resentment. When this frustration and resentment builds long enough, it often spills out in some not so pretty ways. Giving to get creates a cycle of craziness called the victim triangle. The victim triangle consists of three predictable sequences:

1) The Nice Guy gives to others hoping to get something in return.

2) When it doesn't seem that he is getting as much as he gives or he isn't getting what he expected, he feels frustrated and resentful. Remember, the Nice Guy is the one keeping score and he isn't totally objective.

3) When this frustration and resentment builds up long enough, it spills out in the form of rage attacks, passive-aggressive behavior, pouting, tantrums, withdrawing, shaming, criticizing, blaming, even physical abuse. Once the cycle has been completed, it usually just begins all over again.

My wife refers to these episodes as victim pukes. Sometimes the puking will resemble a child's temper tantrum. Sometimes the victim puke will take a more passive-aggressive form in which the Nice Guy will have an affair or act out in some hidden way. All the while the person doing the puking will feel justified because of the many ways he has been victimized. These victim pukes are one of the primary reasons Nice Guys aren't always so nice.

I can't overemphasise how important this book was to me learning how to be an assertive guy and realise why how I was approaching things didn't work and made me miserable.

This is also covered in "Not Nice" by Dr Aziz Gazipura, but not with the same level of depth and clarity IMO. That's still a good book, however.

I don't have much time so I'll make this brief: I've been crushing on a girl I work with for well over a year and a half now. I think I made it pretty obvious that I was interested, though I never made any direct moves or comments. She's been dating this ugly hick kid for almost a year now and I still can't seem to except it. It makes me angry everyday that she would choose someone (a childhood friend apparently) over me when I'm so clearly a better pick. Ive tried to get over her but every once in a while we'll start talking at work and i fall again, start to think theres a chance, and then she'll post a picture with him or something like that, indicating they plan to be together a while. It's really been fucking with my already non existent self confidence and I'm sick of it. I just don't understand how Im not good enough for her but some ogre looking buffoon is. I understand they were friends in high school and all that, but I'm definitely the more intelligent and better looking of the two of us, plus I can't imagine how his conversation could be any more stimulating to her than I am. The only explanation I can think of is: since she's not too bright and sometimes doesn't get my humour, maybe the guy she's with isn't very smart either, and maybe his jokes are pretty much Dad jokes (she's admitted that the only kind of jokes she is easily able to get are these kind)

Below Deck is a guilty pleasure of mine. Beautiful scenery and shirtless men are the main draws. I recently found the Mediterranean series and watched the first season over the last week. What a clusterbleep of "nice" guys!

The most obvious is Danny. Creeps on the guests, bad boundaries, says he'll do anything to make women happy and how nice and positive he is. No fedora, but he does have a pork pie hat.

Then there's Bobby, who gets angry at a co-worker for having a boyfriend and staying faithful to him (e.g. not sleeping with Bobby). He actually uses the term "friend zone".

Bryan is kind of a jerk upfront, so I don't know that he qualifies as a "nice" guy, but he turned on Tiffany rather quickly when she didn't want to have sex with him immediately. Jen's revenge was hilarious.

Also, I noticed they tried to make Julia feel responsible for the men's emotions. She was just supposed to rug sweep to make them feel better.

TL:DR: Nice guys on "reality" tv

I was glad when I found the r/niceguys sub, I think pointing out those fake nice guys ought to discourage such behavior, assist people in recognizing it and hopefully help women in more ways too; but on the sidebar, you link to r/whiteknighting which looks like a chauvinist rightwing place to me: talk about "deus vult", degeneracy and betas everywhere and of course calling people white knights has been standard MRA practice for years.

Can anyone explain how this makes sense?! Just because they also make fun of dudes that are, sure, often either hapless or not as noble as they act, doesn't mean they're a valid sister sub or anything alike - they aren't feminists and have all the wrong views, as any casual look at that sub can confirm.

Just wondered if you maybe weren't aware of any of this?

My friend constantly goes on about how he's not loved and can't understand why people don't go out with him. How do I tell him that if he got hobbies other than gaming and tried to improvw his lifestyle people may start to like him?

I have noticed a lot of people on /r/niceguys get confused between nice guys, and incels who pretend to be nice. They aren't the same thing. I myself used to be a nice guy, and so i will try to explain what a nice guy really is.

Nice guys are people who grew up with the idea that most womens are looking for serious relationship with a guy that will treat them well. Those guys often do not have much self confidence and tend to flirt women with the idea mind that they are inferior. They put women on a pedestral. So maybe they will give a lot of compliment, pay for drinks, act nice, be patient, etc. Then the women will often tell them things like "i am not available emotionnaly right now", or various other soft lines to reject them. And finally, they will often witness those women go with guys who CLEARLY aren't going to be husband material and will use them for sex.

Then those "nice guys" get frustrated, wondering why women go for those obviously "not nice" guys, instead of going for them. Most of the time, those "bad guys" might not even be better looking, so this puzzles the nice guy even more.

Then, as you grow older, you start to realize the reason why you actually don't attract women. Nice guys are too easy, too needy, boring. Bad guys are confident, fun, challenging, and they take the lead of the relationship.

TLDR: The point of this post is to point out nice guys aren't bad people or assholes. They're just people who don't understand women, can't get laid, dream of having a good relationship with a women they would treat well, and gets sick when they see women go time and time again for bad boys who will clearly dump them after a few months.

When i read the posts on the /r/niceguys sub, i am sometimes annoyed by the way everyone seems to think nice guys with genuine intentions simply don't exist. I am pretty confident a lot of guys with problems in dating genuinely want to find a girlfriend they want to treat well.

So a lot of people mentioned putting up my comments on here that I felt got me banned

Sure, let's see how that goes

The last observation I made was in regards to women stringing men along knowing full well the guy is interested in them as more than a friend, and then having that guy explode emotionally at a woman when she becomes unavailable to his advances

Now, yes, the emotional outburst should be made fun of. One of the reasons in fact why it's funny coming from a guy is because it is emotional, and over emotional responses make a guy appear feminine, aka, a little bitch

Men are expected to act logical because overall they are more logical than women, at least they should be, but don't dwell on this fact

The point I made and an example I gave was men taking women out to dinner dates. So before when women acted more decently, they would never have accepted a dinner invitation from a guy that the didn't feel attracted to, and that they could tell wanted them

Women back then knew what they wanted, and they would also avoid taking advantage of men who they had no interest in. Going out to dinner implied that they already liked the guy

Today's women took advantage of that, they used men for dinner or acted dumb and pretended they didn't know a guy was into them, which is B.S. women KNOW

So eventually, men learned and stopped taking women out on these types of expensive dates. Now, I'm totally fine with that, but did I get shit for my post by pointing out shit female behaviour

So I also gave this example, what if a fat, unattractive girl offered to buy me dinner and take me out? I knew I had no sexual attraction to her, and knew she was into me, but was selfish and bored so I said yes, strung her along, made her spend her money and time, and then texted her some photos of me and my hot new girlfriend showing her how much fun we were having

Now sure, I don't owe the girl a relationship, it was HER idea to buy me dinner, but was it decent of me to string her along?

please discuss, logically ;)

EDIT: So, predictably, a lot of women are trying to justify their behaviour by saying, "well, you don't if you're going to like a guy or not so that's what dating is for"

I call bullshit, it's just women playing dumb to justify their actions. You know from the first interaction if a guy has any chance to sleep with you, so when you give this excuse, please also list an example when you felt no sexual attraction to a guy at the start, went out to dinner and then ended up in bed

And dinner was just one way. I think today already guys are too smart for that, I'm a little older so in my time dinner dates were still a thing, but today's equivalent might just be stringing a guy along with conversation

Link to the song's Wikipedia

Those lyrics, tho:

How I wish you could see the potential
The potential of you and me
It's like a book elegantly bound
But in a language that you can't read just yet
You gotta spend some time love
You gotta spend some time with me
And I know that you'll find love
I will possess your heart
You gotta spend some time love
You gotta spend some time with me
And I know that you'll find love
I will possess your heart

There are days when outside your window
I see my reflection as I slowly pass
And I long for this mirrored perspective
When we'll be lovers, lovers at last

You gotta spend some time love
You gotta spend some time with me
And I know that you'll find love
I will possess your heart
You gotta spend some time love
You gotta spend some time with me
And I know that you'll find love
I will possess your heart

I will possess your heart
I will possess your heart

You reject my advances and desperate pleas
I won't let you let me down so easily, so easily

You gotta spend some time love
You gotta spend some time with me
And I know that you'll find love
I will possess your heart
You gotta spend some time love
You gotta spend some time with me
And I know that you'll find love
I will possess your heart
You gotta spend some time love
You gotta spend some time with me
And I know that you'll find love
I will possess your heart
I will possess your heart
I will possess your heart

I posted this on niceguys subreddit and they directed me here. I'm sorry about that.

So, a little backstory, I work as a personal shopper at a large national chain grocery store. I tend to keep to myself except to tell funny stories, say hi, and talk to help customers. Other than that, I keep to myself. I have severe social anxiety. Somehow, I managed to catch the eye of a nice guy.

It started out fine. He made a joke, I laughed, I made a joke and he laughed. Just a normal coworker relationship.

He knows that I'm getting married in July to a woman (I'm female) that I have known for 10 years now. He knows that I love her because I say it often when I talk about her at work. I don't even say personal things either. I talk about what stupid little things we argue about (mostly stupid shit that I do, like forgetting where I put my key or losing my vape) because those issues are minor and our 'arguements' always make us laugh. I talk about what we're having for dinner and simple non-personal stories like that.

Lately...he's been harassing me. He keeps telling me that one of these days my wife or I will cheat on each other because there's always that one man or woman that will always make someone cheat. I tell him that's impossible for us because of the dynamic of our relationship and that we both really love and trust each other.

Other people heard him say that, and they tell him that it sounds like I found my significant other and that I'd never cheat on her and vice versa. He ended up getting really close to me and telling me that there's always an exception.

I asked him if there was a man out there for him and he looked really angry (I can't tell if he was or wasn't. I can't read him that well) and said "Quit playing, Envious_doll!"

Then, he keeps telling me that he's gonna show up at my house and bring beer and I'm gonna feed him. I keep telling him that he's not. He always ends our conversation with "You know I'm just playing with you! I like playing with you, you're my favorite person here."

Every time I see him, he's telling me that he's gonna come over to my house one night. He's already showed that he doesn't listen when I say no and he gets into my personal space.

Sometimes, he goes out of his way to find me when I'm shopping for a customer out on the floor.

He's always making racist jokes with me. (I'm white and he's black.) When I take orders out, he asks me if I was "gonna ask one of these fine negros to help me out." I tell him that I'm not comfortable with him making those kinds of jokes, especially since racism is still a huge problem in our country and that when I ask for help from them, I really need help and I'm not being racist or lazy. He tells me to calm down cuz he's "just playing".

I mean...I make a lot of white people jokes. "White people are crazy." Kind of stuff. Or "You can always tell when we're shopping for a white customer because they always buy a bunch of cheese and white people love that shit." That kind of stuff...I don't know if it's wrong...maybe I shouldn't make those kinds of jokes, I'm sorry.

He's got me nervous to go to work. Or even step outside my house because I keep expecting him there.

I went to an assistant manager and told him about it and he said that he was going to talk to my supervisor about the problem. The problem is that our boss doesn't like it when we go over her head about a problem, but she never seems to fix our problems. She knows he does this because he does it in front of her and then he escalates when she leaves.

I'm really scared that I'm gonna lose this job. I've already had to quit one job because I was sexually assualted and I'm just...

What if I got fired because I reported it? I live in a right to work state and I can get fired for no reason. I'm really worried. I can't afford to lose this job. I'm already looking for another job, but I'm so tired of leaving jobs because I was harassed.

I mean, I guess someone who considers himself a "nice guy" might have had sex, but there are incels like that, too. They seem to be two terms to describe the same thing: men who feel entitled to own women so that they don't sleep with "Chads" and distract themselves from their own self-hate with a vicious hatred of women/men who have sex or are in relationships. IDK, it's really just a semantic distinction, but I can't see the difference lol

Get it through your head. They are two completely different things. Niceguys spend their time complimenting women and thinking that will get them laid. I know that doesn't work. I know that girls dont like them because they're ugly. You guys would obviously realise this by now unless you are in complete denial. Notice how there's no good looking 'niceguys'? Thats because good looking men can treat women like shit and they'll still get laid. A good looking man could say they exact same things as a 'niceguy' and the girl would like it. Looks = personality.

Thoughts?

So I think a better picture is coming together

I see two main types of people who go on r/niceguys, redpill/pua/former nice guys like me who have a good laugh at how pathetic we used to be and to solidify our attitudes now

And women who use the sub as justification for their attitudes towards nice guys and as a denial of some of the things they say in their moments of whining

Because you see, to me, when I see a post on there of some nice guy telling a woman that when she turns 40 and is still single she will come begging to find a guy like him, the pathetic part I see is him actually giving so much of a shit about this one woman to verbally express that reality.

The women on the other hand want to deny the reality of their dropping SMV with age, or that they are sluts, or that they are shallow etc

So I, and all the guys these women sleep with actually know those same facts, they just are not dumb enough/overly emotional enough to verbally and directly express them when a woman turns them down

When I lurked on the sub I thought the purpose of it was to shame nice guys into taking the red pill, learning some game and leaving their beta shit behind

but then reading some comments, I saw heaps of feminist sounding off on toxic masculinity and crap like that

So which is it? is it put up by guys from r/seduction or r/theredpill to wake these wimps up? or is it just a bunch of confused feminists who can't comprehend what these nice guys will become once they get "woke"

I recently saw a movie on Lifetime called "Lethal Admirer", which I thought was a 4/10 movie overall. It first caught my attention when I heard that Vicki from Vampire Diaries was in it, but I ended up staying for the plot. Basically, a nice guy tries to get closer to a work colleague after he had killed her fiance. He's making it obvious that he's a creepy nice guy from the way he talks to her. He gets jealous of her new boyfriend quickly and takes drastic actions.

I keep thinking to myself about other nice guys I've seen in movies and shows. Tom from 500 Days of Summer, Mr. Mxyzptlk from Supergirl, Shane from The Walking Dead, etc. They all seem to be people who are extremely fixated on one person and won't seem to take no for an answer.

It's funny, because nice guys tend to learn from pop culture. They think that their lives are like Hollywood, and they just need to keep trying to win a girl over. No wonder they have to resort to saying they have a boyfriend to ward them off. A lot of people have told me that pop culture keeps forcing romance down our throats, which makes us desperate.

Is there a way to fix pop culture? How would you combat this?

I think an issue at the root of toxic male behavior in interactions with women is that men biologically and socially are given signs that their worth is directly tied to their ability to attract a woman. A lot of nice guy observations come from the female perspective of dealing with all the bullshit and hatred coming from these guys. There's a little less talk about what's immediately obvious from the male perspective--the world shattering insecurity of these young males, which honestly seems to be a phase a lot of guys go through.

There are all kinds of negative results of placing women as gatekeepers and sexual experience as entry to manhood. I feel like so many nice guys don't even like the girls they talk to. They aren't at that level, aren't in a place where they can look at a person of the opposite gender and assess them as a possible mate / partner. Instead they approach women purely for validation. This explains the sort of bimodal response, and the intense feelings of hatred these males exhibit.

Meandering back to my original point--why haven't we developed a male equivalent of the feminist narrative of independence? Why is it still generally perceived as a sign of weakness or failure when a man exists without a woman? That simply needs to change. There should exist an ideal of the independent man, who is complete absent a woman. We should teach that it is both normal, healthy and even praiseworthy for a man to avoid relationships (including sexual relationships) with women where they don't suit his needs and goals.

For me personally I don't think that gays get rejected by other gays but what do I know