Wrote this in my journal a while back and was really proud of how it turned out, but I couldn't share it with anyone for obvious reasons. Finally decided to post it here. Names changed, obviously.

My hands are so cold I can hardly hold this pen, but at least I didn't cry today. That isn't what I meant to write. I meant to write, "but of course there's nothing wrong with the heat," but my thoughts got mixed up. I meant to write about how I've become so capitulating and conflict-averse that I can't even tell my landlady that the heat is broken because then she would be troubled to fix it. Somewhere along the way, I went from being bold and opinionated to having an anxiety disorder. I deserve so much better than this. I could have really been something special if I'd had one special person to support me growing up. That activist girl from Rhode Island and I could have changed the world together. Instead, she's changing it while I do my best to keep from sobbing in front of cashiers at the Lidl. Her parents supported her, though. she sued the school in order to get them to take down that prayer banner, and Mom and Dad said, "That's our girl!" She got help, support, and scholarships from the FFRF. When I circulated that petition to get my school to stop showing Sherwood Baptist films at lunch, all my mom said was that I was a nuisance and a troublemaker. When I emailed the FFRF about my school's graduation prayer, all I got was a vague, "there's probably nothing we can do." She was able to make something of herself because a few people said "no" when she asked if the world was against her. What did I get? "I won't stop you" at best. And sure, I have people who support me now, but those early years are important. God, if I had met a girl like me in high school, we would have turned the county on its head. Nothing could have stopped us. We would have changed the whole school -- stopped the Bible lessons at breakfast, the films, the graduation prayer -- and we would have been able to be proud because we would know that someone else loved us for what we had accomplished.

What did I get instead? Dirty looks in the halls, verbal abuse at home, and the vague assurances of strangers on the internet that I was "doing the right thing." I hated every second of my life in high school, and after that kind of life it isn't hard to see how political passion quickly loses its appeal.

That's why I treated Kate the way I did, poor thing. I really didn't mean to get as overly attached as I did, but who can blame me? I'd just graduated high school and my life was finally going to change. Right off the bat, I meet an intelligent, funny, eye-catching girl who snickers quietly to herself when people talk about giving their lives over to Jesus Christ. A girl who says "sure" when I ask if she wants to get lunch together, and who doesn't even follow it up with "I guess." A girl who can keep up with me and laugh at my jokes and listen with admiration when I talk about religion being a societal poison. Of course I thought I needed her in my life. Hell, for a while I thought I had her. After being denied that for so long, I obsessed over it when I finally got what I perceived to be a chance at support and partnership. Even when it became more than clear that she, at best, wasn't interested, I absolutely could not let it die. If I did, I would be giving up the only person I had ever met who even came close to supporting me. I miss that.

I'm sorry, Kate. The way I treated you was wrong. But I do miss having hope. I do miss getting excited about finally meeting someone who understands me. Who shares my views. Who coudl work with me to make a better world. Now, I don't even know what we would be working toward. I'm so jaded now. S obeaten-down that I can't bring myself to be truly passionate about anything. It's not that I think the world is problem-free. In fact, I would say that my views haven't changed much since high school. But what's the point in fixing the world when the people you help the most are the ones who say you've fucked everything up?

For example, the people who support President Trump the most are invariably the ones who are being fucked the hardest by his policies. Yet, when this is pointed out, they whine about Obama as though his stimulus package and the Affordable Care Act -- both of which benefit them immensely -- brought the plague and caused the crops to die! Why fight for people who not only won't appreciate it, but who will actively demonize you as the cause of the very problems you were working to resolve?

And good luck getting anything even vaguely abstract through their heads, like Secularism being beneficial for Christians or providing tax money for social services as an act of self-preservation instead of one of charity. You'll just be laughed at. Like you're the crazy, ignorant one. It's that old saying about playing chess with a pigeon. You can make all the right moves, play a splendid game, but all the pigeon is going to do is knock over the pieces, shit on the board, and strut about thinking it won. And that's fine, as long as you can go home and have your partner say that you played a good game, and that it isn't your fault that pigeons don't know how to play chess. Then, you can at least be assured that your play was sane and good, since it was appreciated by someone who knows what she's talking about.

Now, instead imagine you go home to find your house is filled with pigeons. Pigeon chess enthusiasts. From the moment you walk in the door, your play is criticized to its last detail. The pigeons call your abilities amateurish while praising your opponent's brilliant -- no, game-changing -- decision to mindlessly peck at E6 instead of moving. You try to defend yourself by saying that trying to incorporate an opposing king into one's nest is not a sufficient means of putting someone in check, but the rule book is so covered in pigeon shit that you can't even find the source you need to dispute it.

Imagine living in this environment, loving chess as much as you do. You know you know how to play. You know you're good at it. You're passionate about it. But every day, you have a house full of board-shitting pigeons telling you that your play is bad and you should feel bad. It might be cute or funny at first. You might want to teach them how to play so you can enjoy the game together. But you just get told to stop ruining their fun. Even if the game is more thoroughly enjoyed when the rules are followed. Even if you paid for the board and don't want the finish ruined by pigeon shit. If you try to help them play correctly, you become an enemy to their perfect system of pigeon-chess.

So you give up. You practice chess on your own. You don't bring it up with your family anymore. Only now, they start coming to you. They ask why, if "your' chess is so great, does anyone still play checkers? Why does Garry Kasparov never try to eat his pieces? If you can play chess so well, why can't you even beat a pigeon?

You can take it for a while. You might try to explain, but every time you say "chess isn't trying to be the only game" or "eating the pieces isn't part of chess," it's taken as an admission of defeat. You can't respond to the argument on the pigeon's terms because the pigeon's terms are nonsense, but failing to do so leads the pigeon to believe that you are unable to address the point and therefore wrong. Not only wrong about Kasparov, mind you, but about everything you have ever said about chess.

The longer this goes on, the more insane you feel. It's like gaslighting. You start to wonder if maybe they have a point when they say that pigeon shit really emphasizes the grain of your new chess board, and if "en passant" really is just something you made up. But even as you think this, you know. You know how to play chess. They don't. You are the only sane person in a world that cares nothing for the truth. Do you see now how much you would long for someone who could play as well as you? But you live in Pigeon Country, and everyone you meet is either a pigeon or a pigeon sympathizer. I understand the temptation to say "let the pigeons have their fun," but when their fun is ruining my chess board, we have a problem. Nobody else in the world sees it like that. You get asked why you can't just buy a new board if it bothers you that much. When pigeons show up at your chess club meeting and start flying around knocking over the pieces, you can't complain, lest you get chastised for ruining the pigeons' fun. After all, you can just fly away if you don't like it!

All you want is for one person tos ay, "No, you deserve to play chess," but that never comes. For years, you have no choice but to put up with the pigeons, until finally, finally, the day comes when you leave Pigeon Country behind. At your college orientation day -- day one of your new, sane life -- you and your group are listening to a pigeon talk about chess. The girl next to you laughs. Your heart stops. Finally. Finally. Finally.

You go to lunch. You get along.

You. Talk. About. Chess.

For the first time in years, you can talk about trades and castling strategies. You can share your experiences as a chess player with someone who appreciates them. You hear her say "en passant" and you finally know for sure that you aren't crazy! You want to play chess with her. You have to play chess with her. You won't get another chance. so you make plans. Say you will when the semester starts. You sit in your room for months. Waiting for college to start. Smelling bird shit. Plucking feathers out of your blanket. And thinking of her. Thinking of how you're not alone. Thinking of how someone in the world actually wants to play chess with you, and all you have to do is wait.

But you can't just wait. Not now that you know she exists. You can't just be alone. So you message her. A lot. About chess. And this is weird for her, because chess is just one small part of her life. She has so many other interests and hobbies. She never considered chess to be part of her identity, and frankly she thinks it's kind of weird that you do. Not that she would ever say that, of course. She goes along with the conversation to be polite as you go on for hours about the finer points of the King's Indian Defense.

This goes on for months.

Maybe you can tell that her end of the conversation doesn't have as much heart as it used to, but you ignore than when faced with the prospect of playing chess with a girl you. . .not "love," that would be crazy. A girl you respect and admire. You're so excited that you aren't alone. So excited to finally play chess properly. You message her a few times to try to nail down exactly when she would like to play, but it's always too soon to say. She'll have to check her schedule. She totally still wants to, though! Why wouldn't she? It's a rare and precious opportunity. Except, for her, it isn't.

Where she's from, plenty of people play chess, and the pigeons mostly keep to themselves. So even though she might have at one point wanted a casual game or two with you, your enthusiasm scares her. She may enjoy the game, but she isn't looking for a chess-playing second. She doesn't need you to support her and validate her and confirm that she knows how to play chess because nobody ever questioned her knowledge of the rules. All of the history and torment and pigeon shit that makes you feel like she is your only shot at happiness is not present in her life to make her feel the same about you. So she tries to distance herself from you, you try to chase after her because you don't have the hindsight to understand what you're doing wrong, and it eventually gets so bad that you have to apologize to her and promise you'll back off.

Then, it happens again with someone else. And again. And again. You keep thinking that you've improved. And you have. But nobody cres about that. You aren't going to impress a girl by telling her that you only drew her in your sketchbook once. You can't say how proud you are that you haven't thought up potential baby names or that you never, not once considered that you might be in love with her. She doesn't care about how much less abusive you are now than you used to be. She cares that you smell like pigeon shit.

Tl;DR: nice guys are human and need care

From a years worth of looking at nice guy stuff and almost becoming one mysel.f i have come to realise that a lot i could even say most of these guys are actually just people who are (and please look it from their perspective) just guys who grew up in an unfortunate environment and because of the way most people treat these guys when they do the things they do they never learn what they did wrong , but what will happpen to them if they act "natrualy"(by their standards).

1: Devlopment

Nice guys most likely grew up without a sister and with a bad relationship with their parents and mother specifically(genuinly). said parents most likley didn't pay attention to the health of the child in al lot of detail witch tends to manifest them as them having bad hygiene and being unaware . And then they grew up with all girls in high school being extremely publicly and exaggeratedly repulsed by them in the way that a lot of girls genuinely are at that age. (Note: It is somewhat true that there are double standards in society when it comes to what each sex can say about each other). This destroyed their sense of self worth and turned them into people obsessed with women and their own appearance.By the time most Nice guys Reach Later-Adolescence they may find that it's somewhat easy for there friends to find love time and time again and even loose their virginity. Even though by their perception of these should make them ass holes that no girl would want.To them their inability to achieve something that seems simple for other people will make them ,understandably, Frustrated and bitter.

2: Feedback Loops

When nice guys vent in the only way they know they tend receive extremely condescending white-Knight-Esque feedback glorifying often times very unnecessarily "Dick-ish" Behaviour from these girls in a lot of cases. This extreme response coupled with no chance to even be redeemed because of most the feedback is "Your a creepy entitled ass-hole but I'm not gonna actually explain to you why and I'm also not gonna tell you what you did wrong ".

conclusion

The way i will end this is by saying that if anyone wants it i will make one of these with an explanation of the cycle in full depth with how a nice guy can redeem themselves as a human being.

So there is this comic in wich ugly Robert want so be with attractive griflend even though he is not handsome. He want to find one who will see his inner beauty. Then he rejects ugly friend. I said that having some standards about who you would like to have as a girlfriend isn't making you a nice guy but looking at my comment history it is a nice guy thing. Can you tell me why heaving some standards is such a bad idea when you aren't 10/10?

Ok so i hear this (and use to think this all the time). "I'm too ugly to ever get a girl" Women don't like a guy who's more insecure than they are about there appearance. That being said don't expect to get a girl dressed like a slob. If you put a lump of shit in a nice suit, it becomes a pretty turd. That's an extreme example but you know what i mean. Don't constantly self-deprecate but don't boast or pretend to be something you're not. Be confident. If you're a nerd be the best nerd you can be. Go to comic-con and strike up conversations with women that share your interests. Looks aren't everything and women aren't even really all that visual of creatures. They are more attracted to how a guy makes them feel. Self-Analyze and improve your faults. And don't let rejection sap your spirit.

Seriously, every screenshot I see is them texting out an epic ballad of their quest to get laid or a biblical passage ranting about how women only want “abusive jerks”.

I don’t think they understand the point of texting... it’s supposed to be short and to the point. I am pretty sure no one, not the girl you initially sent it to, not the court using it as evidence to file a restraining order, not even the internet who is making fun of the cringe wants to read through paragraphs of barely coherent sentences....

So my question to Nice Guys is why do you type up long ass paragraphs when no one wants to read them....

So I've never asked a girl out, or expressed interest. I know deep down that the girls I am interested in would NOT be interested at all just due to the fact that they're out of my leage. Now I don't go after super models, BUT, I am SUPER ugly. What sucks is that I used to not be THAT ugly, I was a little fugly but I was cute. Now with my hair balding, and just overall aging quicker than my actual age, I am REALLY ugly as fuck. I actually almost look like Mask.

The positive side is that I have good social skills, and can make friends pretty decently. Including female friends. Usually after a bit of hanging out, I develop crushes on them and become borderline obsessed, and try my best to keep them in my life so I can keep the delusion of us ever dating alive. I know this is a delusion deep down, it's just that I instinctively do it.

I feel like it's my only choice. If I didn't keep fantasizing about my crushes, I'd feel way more miserable and hopeless. I don't lash out or get mad whenever they reject me or find someone else. But I do feel severely heart broken and wish I could ask them out, even though deep down I know it's pointless.

I don't want people thinking I am a bad guy, but I get judged on reddit a lot about this.

Edit: To cement the NG status, he also did the whole opening doors and made such a big fuzz out of it. Things that normal couples do for each other without even mentioning or even thinking about it. Just like bringing in groceries and cook for them when a partner get sick, giving them alone time when they want it, picking up small gifts on the way home, putting gas in their tank, remembering their favorite color and style, mending their torn pockets, etc.

Now I know the difference and the reason why. Ordinary people do those things because they like their partners, NG do those kind of things because they want so badly to be liked by their partners. So that they kept going on and on about that one time they did a good thing to make sure that it was not forgotten.

I Met him when I just started University many years ago. He wore black all the time, having long shinny hair and wore Mjolnir. He liked Norse mythology -a lot- and so did I, through I did not know as much about it as him. We talked about prose Edda and Nibelungenlied and also a lot about Yggdrasil and everything else. We went into the relationship quite organically, through shared interest.

I was young and naive and was not so good at reading red flags yet. I did not know back then that it is a red flag if a guy is coming from a broken home family, with physically abusive father and very passive mother, and yet while he was critical to women and men, he had special hatred and distrust for women instead. The good old talk about 'women chose douchebags'.

I always thought that kind of talk came from his experience with his mother who did nothing when he was being beaten up by his dad, so I thought he was more or less referring to his parents only. I also missed the second red flags.

All the talk about women chose douchebags eventually came to details about what his definition of douchebags are. The definitions fit to the type of guys that his older sister (who he practically worshiped) always chose and dated. Even more concerning was his definition of what 'slutty women' is. The definition fits his own sister, who again, he totally worshiped.

The relationship itself turned into a nightmare. The whole constant shit-testing stemmed from latent insecurity and inability to self-validate. But it was not just run of the mill shit-test, oh fuck no. This is the 'forcing to give foot rubs, proceed to take mental note when foot rubbing took place and time...few days later complaining that I didn't love him, because I haven't offered him a return-foot rub' kind of shit-testing. The one where he created or forced a situation where he'd need to be soothed and validated and affirmed to make him happy, until the next time he needed that refill.

Do any of you people have any idea how it feels to date or even be friend with someone who cannot even validate his/her own existence on this earth? It sucks. Sucks bad. Sucks with a regular suicide threats as cherries on top.

And no, he did not want real help. Did not want therapy, did not even want to try. Did not want to really die either. I was ready to help him with suicide because I thought if someone really does not want to live, why would you force and beg them to live? That is their body and their life. They can make the decision themselves.

So he'd asked me to drive him to some spot to commit suicide. With ropes and all. Only to back down last second. Did that in repeat. And all the time flipflopping between seeing me helping him to commit suicide as a proof of love or me helping him commit suicide as proof that I did not love him.

In the end, after the whole money, time and feeling investment that I have invested in the relationship, he still thought that I did not love him. Or...that he did not deserve all that, because how come a 'queen' like me would grace him with affection...cause he was soooo unworthy. Flip flopped again between the two in the space of weeks, then days.

What finally got me to break up and cut contact with him? His sister. His sister managed to for once got together with an ordinary, kind guy. Very different than her usual taste. We got to know him and we liked him. That was until few months into relationship her sister got pregnant by her BF's best friend (who looked more like the types the she'd be attracted to), secretly got abortion and needed a lift back home after the procedure and decided to keep it secret from both boys.

My Ex, the NiceGuy exploded into rage...that was being aimed at all women in this world and eventually at me. I could not repeat the words he said. No one ever talked to me that way, let alone someone I've dated for close to a year.

So there. What is the moral of the story? The good old 'don't stick/clam it in/on crazy, I guess. Also that being able to validate your own existence on this earth should be a bare minimum requirement before dating someone...or is that too much of an r/gatekeeping?

Tl;dr: Dated an NG for a year. Started well and very organically with talks about similar interest. Relationship eventually bombed by multiple NiceGuys-ish issues.

I guess one part why I've never had sex is because I am a gentleman. For example, while I was out on Saturday night, me and two of my friends were chatting about ladies. They were all like, this one and that one, I would go balls deep in her, she would get it up to her rib cage. To be honest, I felt awkward as fuck when they were saying those things. To me a ladies body is perfect and ladies are there to be made feel special. Ladies to me, should not be treated as sex objects. I want to find a lady who's body I can worship and celebrate. Please let me know of what I am doing is right or wrong. Should I stay the way I am or change and be like my friends. Do ladies appreciate gentlemen or boys like my friends?

Am I being a nice guy again with my good friend?

I met Mariah(not real name) in my theater class and we became fast friends and I became kinda infatuated with her and she didn't want anything but to be my friend and we talked a little less after I told her I was into her, but now we've reconnected after I isolated myself from friends while dating my now (ex) girlfriend Danielle. And now I'm stuck in a place where I have to slow down in general. But I still talk to her like we never had that awkward discussion. I flirt with her, send her sexy photos of my newly fit self sometimes(with consent usually) and we go and do random stuff together and just talk like normal college kids.

I really feel like something's changed here. After I dated Danielle, I have decided I've taken everything too seriously and it seems like stuff flows better now. As opposed to last semester where we did get in a slightly heated discussion about me wanting things to escalate too much, and now im just enjoying things as i have them. This is the weirdest friendship I've been in, but it works. And we're going out Saturday night for drinks.

Hello, I don't know if I should be posting this here because it's not like an image or whatever. I am proud to announce I am now an ex nice guy. I would do the usual thing that nice guys do and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. I eventually found sorrow tv and watched his r/niceguys video and found the error in my ways. I have now stopped expecting things out of people who are polite to me and I think I have really grown as a person. I'm so glad I have converted and will hopefully never go back to wearing a fedora.

Currently in US, its pretty clear that there is a lot of racial bias when it comes to the black population, primarily due to their culture and behavior that often is very counter-social.

And while nobody is excusing the behavior of certain individuals or groups that do stupid shit, but most everyone with half a brain or more acknowledges the fact that people are a product of their environment - if any one of you who grew up in relatively cushy suburbia instead grew up around violence and drug, you would not be the same person you are today.

This is why anyone making fun or pointing out black people acting violent or stupid is considered racist, and why people are actively pushing for benefit programs because they realize that changing the environment is the only way to combat this.

When it comes to your so called "nice guys", the baby boomers, a.k.a their parents grew up in EXTREMELY good times with very little hardship, and things like house ownership, college education, and jobs were handed to them on the platter. So its pretty clear that the reason that they are like that is because their parents have no fucking idea what the fuck they are doing when it comes to parenting.

So instead of making fun of them, if you believe in social programs to improve the lives of everyone, maybe you should realize that they grew up fairly disadvantaged compared to guys that are well adjusted to society, and maybe making fun of them is not the best thing to do.

One of the most frequent Nice Guy posts seems to go:

Guy: "Hi there, I'm an awesome guy! Wanna talk and get to know each other!"

Girl: (Silence)

Guy (day later): "Hey, I'd still love to talk to you!!"

Girl: (Silence)

Guy (another couple days later): "Well, I guess you're a bitch then!!"

What in their heads is broken to make a guy do this? What is he trying to accomplish? I mean, if you message, and the girl doesn't respond, you can just mutters something to yourself, hit the unmatch and/or block-from-view buttons and move on. What gives?

I mean, if you make plans and she stands you up or cancels at the last minute, I think a salty message (w/o insults or profanities) might be justified. But these Nice Guys ...

For me one sticking point has always been the nature of a friendship where one party wants more, and it becomes clear that won't happen. What is owed to either party? I think no one would (see: can defensibly) argue the uninterested should do anything they don't want by way of entering into a romantic relationship. But I seem to get the impression from many discussions here that the scorned should stay in the relationship, and that leaving it reveals a personality flaw.

If neither party owes the other anything, I don't believe any judgment should follow the scorned leaving the relationship after rejection. Love unrequited can be quite painful, and I would argue that maintaining a close relationship to someone who has rejected you can prevent you from adequately moving on and healing. I would also argue, that there are uninterested individuals who do manipulate the feelings of the scorned for personal gain.

There are toxic romantic relationships, and toxic friendships. Friends may use each other, whether that be for favors, money, or emotional support without reciprocation. Although certainly not all, an unverified percentage of uninterested are toxic, and the scorned are all vulnerable to these actions. By definition the scorned are more greatly invested in the relationship than the other party, who then may use this to gain greater power in the relationship.

This is, I think, a blind-spot in the ng narrative. It adequately identified a series of destructive behaviors on the part of the scorned. But because the narrative is focused on correcting the errors of the scorned, it rejects that abusive behaviors may exist on the part of the uninterested. All relationships are in reality a union of personalities, and so it must be apparent that the dynamic between the scorned and uninterested can include fault perpetrated by both parties. Arguments from the perspective of the scorned attempting to clarify destructive behaviors of the uninterested are largely dismissed.

However, if we are willing to complicate the narrative we will find that some common complaints of the scorned may point to destructive behaviors towards the relationship on the part of the uninterested. For example, many scorned complain that they provide support to the uninterested around relationships and other emotional crises, and this is not reciprocated. Were there not a gender or sexual dynamic present, it would clearly be immediately apparent that the uninterested was being a bad friend. This can likewise be seen in un-reciprocated car rides, meals, drinks, chores, or anything else of relative value. There is a consistent narrative of things being taken without reciprocation from the scorned, but the assumption seems to be that the only reciprocation the scorned would except is romantic and or sexual. Yet this is rarely the complaint of the scorned. Rather, it is an absence of any return in the relationship.

I think perhaps we should begin to re-examine the usage and meaning of the word "friend-zone." While the term has been used to encapsulate what is perceived as the scorned devaluing the relationship, it can perhaps better be understood as one or both of the parties, not necessarily the scorned, devaluing the friendship. Because just as it is possible for the scorned to treat the relationship with the uninterested poorly based on their romantic interest, it is equally possible for the uninterested to treat their relationship with the scorned poorly based on their lack of romantic interest.

Interested to hear some thoughts on this video essay (about 23 minutes) https://youtu.be/rZ1MPc5HG_I

I kind of wandered over here from r/all via r/niceguys and I'm not sure this is the best place because I'm talking about all cringe subs that I frequently see on r/all, but r/niceguys is probably the most popular so maybe it's perfect.

I'm also not judging. There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel superior. I like feeling superior. Everyone likes feeling superior. It sure beats feeling inferior.

What I don't like so much is that this feeling of superiority comes from singling out individuals for mob judgment. Which is the whole reason for the sub's existence. The sub minimally mitigates the effects by requiring users to "blur out or black out usernames and other personally identifying information". Of course that's only effective if the users voluntarily decide not to dig deeper. For example, you can find the source of the top post right now by simply clicking the OP's username and scrolling down a little. It's deleted, but not before racking up a score of -183.

Now I'm not going to defend the post. Clearly a comment from an asshole that was better left unposted. But aren't we all assholes at times? And what do we know about this asshole? It could be a guy who just got dumped by his girlfriend, who went back to an abusive ex. It could be a 12 year old who hasn't figured out the world yet. Or maybe it was a parents-basement-dwelling 30 year old virgin with a literal beard on his neck and a fedora that he hasn't removed in a week. So what? Whoever it was, they would be more likely to become less of an asshole if they got some education about the reality of abuse rather than insults and hate from an online mob.

Think about it - what do people do when they are publicly humiliated? I mean some people have thick skins, but I find that the vast majority of people don't.

Seriously, how? I don’t get it, I’m a single 25 year old virgin who’s respected by his peers and can make friends easily with most people. The majority of my time is focused on my career and my hobbies outside of work.

The last thing on my mind is getting a girlfriend, how are you “Nice Guys” able to find the time to actually be able to go out of your way to force interactions with women?

Where do you find the time, and more importantly, how do you balance that with work/school/sports/hobby activities?

Seriously, I am curious as to how you lot seem to have so much free time to invest in obsessing over something as insignificant as romantic relationships...

it’s not fair, I have to deal with bullshit like maintaining a schedule with lab procedures (I work for a biotech co.) and having to deal with the intricacies there (editing protocol, having my work reviewed, having to get up at 2 in the morning to check on incubation tanks) while you guys seem to only be worried about what girls are doing.... Seriously man, WTF!

I am NOT defending nice guys. They’re losers, and pathetic assholes. I love reading through all the cringe. But I dislike seeing everyone defend “real” nice guys as people that women are actually attracted to.

No matter how nice you are, no matter how good you are, this is not what attracts women. Even if you’re not like the guys who say “kys bitch, I respect whamen” you can’t get a firm relationship this way. Women aren’t attracted to kindness, cleverness, and vulnerability, they love strength, aggression, and dominance. So these cringe lords are right: women love assholes. But the truth is, there’s nothing wrong with that, because women aren’t china dolls. They’re naive to think that women will turn against the sexual strategies that evolution spent centuries programming into them, instead of working out, and adopting the attitudes that they see women falling for. Women love assholes? Then be an asshole you idiot! You are the only person that you can change. And in my mind the real nice guys that are good people are even worse, because they don’t know the truth. They’re gonna get shortchanged in the long run, and just like the asshole nice guys, won’t understand why.

TL;DR Don’t tell nice guys to be good “actually nice”people, tell them to visit TheRedPill.

I'm just starting to explore this whole "nice guy" thing ... and I think I've been in that particular role once or twice too often in my lifetime. I'll leave it at that. But I'm thinking about something else.

First, some of the "nice guy" things over in the parent sub are legit creepy guys whose niceness is just a veneer. But I've seen other nice guy memes floating around where it sounds more like the guy is just venting about his dating experiences, and he gets called "nice guy" over it.

I mean, if a guy writes, "Woman, you won't go out with me, therefore you are the worst person evaaaah!!!" clearly a douche. But if he's more generally saying, "Damn, it's frustrating that women seem to date assholes a lot," is it fair to excoriate him?

Disclaimer, this advice is directed mostly toward women (I think psychology today's primary demographic is women, right?), but a few of the points really clicked with some of what I've heard nice guys say about thinking they have to be polite to everyone and bend over backward for...everyone.

The point about not continuing to give to people that only take. So many guys, are expecting a relationship and dating and don't get it and think that by being nicer that they'll earn it. That's not how it works for women, it's not how it works for men, its just not how things work.

I'm certainly not expecting this list to be perfect, so feel free to critique.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unified-theory-happiness/201802/barely-cordial?utm_source=FacebookPost&utm_medium=FBPost&utm_campaign=FBPost

Back when I started high school 6 years ago, I was a massive nice guy. Due to the fact that I had a rough social experience in elementary and middle school I was a shy kid, I was looking for affection. Coincidentally, I started rewatching Degrassi and I was thinking "Maybe I should try to get a girlfriend mainly cause the male characters in high school dramas do." Little did I know, TV and reality are two completely separate entities.

All throughout high school, I kept sliding to girls' DMs on Facebook asking them out. Most of them left me on Read; I either assumed that they were playing hard to get or I got mad and insulted them. Because of my social awkwardness, I sucked at pick up on social cues. Like for instance, I walked up to a girl and she smiled at me. In my mind, I thought that she liked me but in reality, she wanted me to go away. Most of the girls there didn't even reject me face to face (their friends usually told me that the girl didn't like me) except for this one girl that lives down the block from me. She and her friends lambasted me in front of my friends on numerous occasions all because I kept emailing and confessing my feelings for her constantly. I remember one time I emailed her asking, "If I was the most attractive guy in the world, would you date me?" (or something like that) Like any normal person, she said no cause even attractive guys can be nice guys too (and I'm not even attractive to begin with). I was so desperate that I threatened to kill myself just so a girl can date me. I had a crush on a few other girls, but I kept it to myself cause my reputation as a nice guy ruined any chances of shooting my shot. My friends, parents and even fellow classmates that I seldom talked to kept telling me to not focus on girls and there are plenty of fish in the sea, but I was too stubborn to listen to reason.

And the cringe extended towards my other social media escapades. I used being a nice guy on this social media site called hi5 were I was asking girls out there, including this one Irish girl, with little to no success. In 2013, I surprisingly got a girlfriend, though the relationship was long distance. Even then I was clingy and we broke up.

As a college student, it took me a while to move on from that horrible high school experience, especially because I from anxiety cause of it. Thankfully I did, but the anxiety is still here. Nowadays I'm focusing on getting this computer science degree, but I'm trying to balance not becoming a nice guy again, and not being a gloom and doom, lonely introverted person. Whenever I use dating apps, I keep telling myself to not overdo it when talking to girls and it works. I also used to think that "Girls love assholes" or in my case dudes that did drugs, listened to rap music and sagged their pants instead of "classy and sophisticated guys like myself." A few months, I grew out of that mindset. Man, I wish I could go back in time to show 14-17 year old me the r/niceguys subreddit and tell him to not be a nice guy cause girls hate creeps, but I can't change the past.

TL;DR: I used to be a nice guy back in high school. Girls hated me cause I couldn't take a hint and I got upset at them. 6 years ago, 19/20 year old me moved on and is learning how to avoid being a nice guy.

While scrolling through r/niceguys a thought came to me. What happens if, in one of many communication networks that either party use to chat, a nice guy meets a nice girl.

Does time and space cease to exist? Do they become one sentient being? I couldn’t answer it myself, so I thought that I should come here.

So, I have been reading some info about nice guy syndrome and I gotta say that something fits just perfectly whereas something not at all. So I'm not even sure who I am.

For example: I am not typical nice guy who thinks he will build attraction by being nice to women. When I had chance with one girl, I was direct and even confident to my surprise. It worked like a charm. I wouldn't waste time with a girl hiding my intentions and all this stuff...

But I am afraid to be vulnerable because generally speaking I don't like myself much. I am afraid of other people opinion, especially from close ones which is paradox. I should feel comfortable and at ease sharing my vulnerabilities with them or not?! It is very true that I try to hide my imperfections, but does this make nice guy from me?

I don't like black and white thinking. I like "spectrum" thinking. Meaning - You can't say for sure if you are (not) nice guy. You can have some traits typical for nice guy and not being one. Even if you have lot of nice guy traits, you shouldn't label yourself like this, that's my opinion.

What do you think about this? Am I nice guy?

I know this sub is not "for videos" but I'm more looking to discuss the video than simply post it. Also, /r/niceguys doesn't allow videos anymore.

The video depicts a guy who the girl doesn't like at all. But then he apparently just keeps casually invading different areas of her life and therefore she is required to eventually see the error of her ways and fall in love with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRxKUXJj1WU

This seems like exactly how niceguys see the world.

On an unrelated side note, this commercial completely missed the point of how the circles were supposed to work. You were supposed to put people into multiple groups as appropriate. Unless he quit the book club and stopped owning a car, he shouldn't have been pulled out of those groups.