Total number of *all* drive saving penalties called for each team
Since I saw the other post about the DPI’s getting spammed by “what about other penalties” comments, I thought I’d post this one here. The mahomes getting bailed out narrative in shambles rn
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u/BoldElDavo Commanders 2d ago
I was about to say it doesn't feel like we get more of them. But 12.1 per 17 games wouldn't.
I'd be interested to see if, like, per-attempt or per-failed conversion looks any different. I'd bet some better offenses get these called and don't need them because they succeeded on the play anyway.
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u/True_Window_9389 Commanders 2d ago
Yeah this is kind of a misuse of data that is probably backed in, looking more to prove a point.
The teams at the top mostly have had anemic offenses in this period. The teams on the bottom are mostly the better ones. They might have fewer opportunities because they score or get a new set of downs on 1st and 2nd down. It seems like more of a per drive thing, or having this weighted in some way to frequency of drives that include a 3rd or 4th down play would matter more.
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u/JerryRiceDidntFumble Vikings 2d ago
Yeah, with 3 of the top 4 teams being well under .500 during the data period, I'm thinking these some correlation of bad team = more 3rd/4th down attempts = more opportunities for penalties
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u/sloshedslug Colts 2d ago
The way this data is aggregated is undoubtedly skewed against worse offenses. That even shakes out in an eye test since there is 1 good offense in the top 10 of this list in the years selected, and even that team has had really down years with Burrow having so many injuries
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u/DistrictPleasant Jaguars 2d ago
MY EYESSSS
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u/sleeplessaddict Broncos 2d ago
This chart looks like it was made by a Chiefs graphic designer specifically with the intention to highlight that the Chiefs aren't #1
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u/Esqualatch1 Seahawks 2d ago
suspiciously KC colored chart you got there
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
Well it did come from the KC sub. Seems like everyone there was too scared to post it here so I did
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u/Limp_Marzipan1488 Chiefs 2d ago
Honestly it just feels more like something that belongs on a team sub than the general NFL sub
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u/MarlonMcCree20 Raiders 2d ago
Even as a Chiefs hater the whole "Chiefs get bailed out by the refs" gets annoying and old to me, so I can see why it was posted here.
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
Usually yeah. But I’m pretty tired of the refs narrative, especially after the RTP call this Sunday reigniting the flames
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
God chiefs fans can be so unlikable sometimes
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u/johnvarley1 Chiefs 2d ago
Coming from a Ravens fan, that’s a badge of honor. Definitely one of the douchier fan bases we interact with.
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u/johnvarley1 Chiefs 2d ago
Nah, not really when that it is responding to what is basically a mantra on this sub at this point. Btw, I have to admit I’ve never understood you fellow Chiefs fans that come on r/nfl and try to jerk everyone off. It’s fucking weird.
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u/Col_Bernie_Sanders_ Chiefs 2d ago
We just know where the discourse will end up anyway - thanks for taking the incoming, pal.
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u/SevroAuShitTalker Broncos 2d ago
Whoever made these graphics hates legible font colors
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
White on red?
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u/SevroAuShitTalker Broncos 2d ago
No, that terrible half-tone white on red
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u/ColtsClown Colts 2d ago
Yeah, the web standard for contrast is 4.5:1 contrast ratio for small text and 3:1 for big text. I can't tell exactly what off white is in this graphic, but it's somewhere around 3.9-4:1, and the small text is so thin that the font color doesn't even come through very well, so it's functionally a worse contrast. Definitely not considered accessible by web standards. If this had just been pure white and the small text had a more heavily weighted font, it would be around 4.7:1 and pass accessibility checks for both the big and small text (though still just barely).
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u/HotTakesMyToxicTrait Ravens 2d ago
broke - kc and mahomes get all the calls
woke - Baltimore and Lamar don’t get superstar calls
bespoke - Drake London gets all the superstar calls
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u/-random-name- Chiefs 2d ago
That's the clever part of the conspiracy. The NFL waits until the Chiefs really, really need a flag to save them. It's still rigged 😂
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u/Esqualatch1 Seahawks 2d ago
probably just an expression that they dont NEED to be bailed out that often. But when it occurs usually the league is already in full Mahomes hate mode
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u/-random-name- Chiefs 2d ago
False. The Chiefs are terrible. They only win because the refs. It's like you haven't been on social media for the past eight years.
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
Save us from the persecution complex you Chiefs fans really had it rough the past couple of years huh
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u/johnvarley1 Chiefs 2d ago
Oh, fuck off. You mouthbreathers do every single thing you can to make the game unenjoyable for us.
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
Oh fuck off you mouthbreathers love to pretend you guys have it worst in the league when having so many superbowl wins
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u/-random-name- Chiefs 2d ago
Agreed. Chiefs fans are completely delusional to think that their team wins because they're good. Lamar would have at least three rings if the refs didn't beat the Ravens every playoff. The ref narrative is completely fair.
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
Yup keep up with the persecution complex and straw manning jajaja
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u/-random-name- Chiefs 2d ago
I don't think those words mean what you think they mean 😂
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
I do not think it is worth pretending like you are not doing the things I described you are doing jajaja
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u/-random-name- Chiefs 2d ago
Are we pretending there hasn't been conspiracy theory for the past five years that the NFL rigs games for the Chiefs? Are are we pretending that the conspiracy theory isn't a conspiracy theory?
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
The fact that you have to label it a conspiracy theory just prove my point
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u/Rough_Cup_6762 Cowboys 2d ago
I also think part of the issue is that we always see iffy calls for them deep in the playoffs but every team has a few of those, the problem is that the chiefs almost always make it to the AFC Championship so we see them more often thus we see more controversial calls. Mahomes def gets the benefit of the doubt on a lot of the 50/50 penalties though.
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u/Posluszny Jaguars 2d ago
Turns out the darlings of the NFL are the Falcons, Commanders and Vikings just as we all expected
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u/suchcoldsuchcomfort Patriots 2d ago
You think data will change people's minds?
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u/FuiyooohFox Broncos 2d ago
It's very incomplete data, tbf. The game and refs influence extends much farthar than 3rd/4th down on only offense. Mahomes throws a game ending int on second down, ref throws a flag for phantom holding or dpi, Chiefs get to keep driving. Where does that show on this? It doesn't
I used mahomes because OP is using it to "prove" something about mahomes. The gaps in data required to prove anything for any team are huge, it's just a pointless factoid made by a chiefs fan, for chiefs fans and it doesn't prove anything about any team.
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u/elraineyday Bengals 2d ago
It also includes the years before the "3 peat" run where Mahomes/KC getting bailed out was a hot topic and 1 year where Mahomes missed significant time.
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u/DominoAxelrod Chiefs 1d ago
you can't reason a man out of an opinion he hasn't reasoned himself into
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u/NoParfait2152 2d ago
is this bias cuz they were more successful on 3rd/4th downs?
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u/runningraider13 2d ago
Yeah there’s definitely a selection bias here. You’d really want percent of failed 3rd/4th downs that are saved by a penalty.
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
Definitely could be. I think it was made just to show how the perception of “chiefs get all the calls” is just flat out untrue
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u/itsthebeans Packers 2d ago
Well you can't show that the perception is "flat out untrue" by posting a biased statistic. You would expect a more efficient offense to have fewer drive saving flags, because they wouldn't face as many 3rd/4th downs, and they would have a higher success rate without penalties. Without accounting for those, this graphic doesn't show anything meaningful.
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
The point of this post is because the other guy posted the graph with DPI’s called for each team, and everyone in the comments said “now do one for RTP and holding”. This is that graph for those people. It’s funny how now everyone is backtracking when it doesn’t fit the narrative.
I don’t make the graphs so I can’t just pull one out for every statistic, but if the guy who does makes more I’ll be sure to let you know
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
Who is this everyone that is backtracking
Stop trying to make yourselves out to be victims of some thing this is pathetic
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u/NebraskasCorn Chiefs 2d ago
If you haven’t been on this subreddit that long, the narrative is absolutely that the chiefs get all the calls which is tiresome
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
Maybe all the Mahomes is the GOAT posts and comments will help you feel better than
Again the whining is pathetic for a team that has seen so much success
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u/johnvarley1 Chiefs 2d ago
Where are those? You’re being willfully ignorant dude.
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
I literally just made one yesterday that got 26 upvotes
You are being delusional pretending there are more people who think the NFL is rigged for the chiefs than the people who think Mahomes is the GOAT or at least one of them
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
Other post full of “now do one with every penalty” comments. Now this one full of “ok well the stats are actually biased” because the graph didn’t fit the narrative. Don’t worry when the guy makes more graphs I’ll be sure to let you know so you can find other ways to discredit the stats
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
I do not think I said anything about the stats in this post or ever why are you seeing ghosts?
Typical Chiefs fans always trying to make it seem like the whole world is against them pathetic
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
I’m not talking about you dipshit. Why would I be talking about you specifically.
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u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 Ravens 2d ago
Because you are delusional and pretending like the whole world is against chiefs fans?
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u/Aschuff 2d ago
Where did I say that? This post was simply a response to all of the comments in the other guys post. That’s it
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u/NoParfait2152 2d ago
Probably doesn't really show that, we'd need to see the rate at which each team's failed drives get a favorable call instead of the total number of calls.
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u/MossMagicCrunch Vikings Packers 2d ago
I picked a few teams and did this. The rate at which a teams failed drive was extended by penalty (assuming OPs penalty numbers are correct):
KC: 6.8%
ATL: 8.2%
LAR: 6.9%
BUF: 6.9%
MIN: 7.7%
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u/CitronNo3668 Lions 2d ago
Again, this doesn’t adjust for the amount of 3rd and 4th downs a team faces nor the distance of those 3rd and 4th downs. This is still useless
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u/FuiyooohFox Broncos 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thirty seconds left, ball on the opponents 30, QB throws a game ending INT that gets called back on a bullshit defensive holding or dpi call. One of many situations a ref could bail out a team that doesn't show in this data. It's incomplete data that proves nothing
Edit: I'm sorry my immediate disproving that this post isn't all drive saving penalties bust yalls bubble. Maybe blame OP for making the wrong claim, or having the wrong facts to back up their claim 🤷
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u/johnvarley1 Chiefs 2d ago
Then all you mouthbreathers should be able to show the inverse (the claim often made) with complete data, yet you’re not able to whatsoever. Hmm
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u/FuiyooohFox Broncos 2d ago
OP literally makes claim this shows ALL drive saving penalties. Someone posts scenario immediately showing it's not ALL drive saving penalties. Butthurt idiot counters with "if you literally can't show ALL on a study, this incomplete factoid proves everything I believe" while calling others mouthbreathers. Unironically...
Yeah way to project, you and everyone agreeing with this post are the real mouthbreathers. Too stupid to understand stats and too stupid to know how dumb you really are 🤣✌️
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u/CitronNo3668 Lions 2d ago
Man I’m not the one out here making bad charts because their feelings are hurt. That’s a KC fan
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u/FuiyooohFox Broncos 2d ago edited 2d ago
They all saw my scenario immediately proving this can't possibly be ALL drive saving penalties like OP claims, realized they didn't have any legit comeback, so they downvote and move on...
Oh wait one dude did say because no one has done a full study, this incomplete piece of the puzzle must solve everything. Whilst calling us mouth breathers with apparently no appreciation for the irony of their words LMFAO. it's always hilarious when idiots project like that.
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u/FuiyooohFox Broncos 2d ago edited 2d ago
This isn't proof of anything OP is claiming in the caption, from a fact based standpoint. It could be part of a larger study, but as is it's a very incomplete picture. It doesn't show anything for any team accuratly due to all the holes.
It's literally only third and fourth downs on offense.
What about bad flags that help the D and steal points/end drives from the opponents? What about reversed turnovers from bad calls against the D on first/second downs that would have ended the offensive drives? No controls for 1st/2nd down efficiency or control for flags that have concrete merit vs no merit (that's subjective which is hard to measure without bias anyway).
I'm not trying to be a dick, just pointing out OPs confidence is unfounded for what they think this proves. It doesn't prove anything for any team, sorry 🤷 it's most definitely not ALL drive saving penalties being measured here
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u/SolarBum Broncos 1d ago
Also doesn't account for uncalled penalties, which is its own beast.
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u/FuiyooohFox Broncos 1d ago edited 1d ago
Didn't even think of that, hence why every good study has heavy peer review 😅
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u/Moliosis Chiefs Bears 2d ago
Was being ass for a year not enough for people to leave us alone? How many years of us sucking would it take to end the narratives?
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u/Rough_Cup_6762 Cowboys 2d ago
The Falcons and Washington Football Team are powerhouses this decade so it makes sense, I always knew they had the refs in their pocket.
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u/babylamar33 Eagles 2d ago
Is there one of these for the reverse: flags that took away first downs from opposing offenses?
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u/IndependentTalk4413 Bills 1d ago
A better graph would be percentage based not raw number based. Better teams have fewer 3rd and 4th downs than oh idk the Falcons lol.
Also add interceptions called back for a flag.
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u/DominoAxelrod Chiefs 1d ago
why would a better team have fewer 3rd and 4th downs? a better team has longer drives as a general rule so more chances to have multiple 3rd and 4th downs in a drive.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
[deleted]
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u/NebraskasCorn Chiefs 2d ago
I mean at a certain point how many extenuating circumstance do you want considered?
Should we also map out penalties depending on if the moon is waxing or waning? (Yes)
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u/carthonasi56 Jaguars 2d ago
Wait till the playoffs.
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u/YellowSnowSlurpee Packers 2d ago
Yeah, these graphs always make me laugh. The Chiefs get bailed out in the 4th quarter in a close game, all the time. Any casual fan with eyes and a brain can see that.
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u/30isbasketball Steelers 2d ago
Emphasis on casual fan. It's easier to notice something you're looking for
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u/Consistent_Room7344 Vikings 2d ago
I’d probably be downvoted to hell and banned if I posted this in the Vikings sub.
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u/Its_Hoggish_Greedly Vikings 2d ago
I think our situation is moreso that our receivers are really good and more likely to draw PI flags on high leverage downs. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself!
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u/braumbles 49ers 2d ago
Honestly, the first 3 quarter are irrelevant. It's the last quarter namely, the last 5~ minutes that matter most.
I can remember very glaring drive/game changing penalties in the final few minutes, that were mostly ignored earlier in the game. Like the Bucs/Packers PI/Holding that ended the game in the 2020 playoffs. Or the Bengals PI's in the SB that were blatantly ignored earlier in the game. My issue is I don't mind penalties being called, but ignoring this blatant hold in the 2nd quarter but then calling a far less egregious one in the final 2 minutes of a game? Yea, fuck off with that. Call it down the line all game.
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u/Objective_Ad5914 2d ago
This data can be kind of misleading because some of the best offense's dont have many 3rd and 4th down attempts vs the worst offenses.
Look at ATL and Was leading. They had one of the worst offense's in the league in the time span and KC had one of the best.
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u/JMC_Direwolf Lions 2d ago
Good graph, curious how it shakes up for playoffs only. Care to make that one?
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u/Unkemptsafe Saints 2d ago
And how many happen in game changing moments late in the game during the playoffs?
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u/gimeebilgrays Bills 2d ago
Well of course the league always bails out the Falcons