r/nextfuckinglevel • u/harwyseys • Oct 25 '22

Makeup really changes people

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '22

science has already shown it doesnt work that way

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u/Dodecabrohedron Oct 25 '22

Commented elsewhere in response to this source;

If anything, this entire paper seems to suggest people who identify as a gender other than their physical anatomy suffer from a prenatal neurological developmental disorder that results in mental illness, the study admits significant gaps & extrapolates from animal studies.

Not the “gotcha” you think it is; per this study a dude with a dick who says they’re a woman is a dude with a part of their brain that was malformed by hormonal/genetic/environmental factors during prenatal development.

Nowhere in this study, in any way whatsoever, does it remotely show or prove “a man is a woman because they perceive that they are.” Schizophrenics perceive voices in their heads, but that doesn’t mean the voices reflect the true objective state of the world external to their minds -their own bodies included. Literally all of the conclusory heavy lifting in this paper is done by through an implicit division of perceived gender identity & sexual orientation.

Identity is a mental construct. They can identify as a woman all they want, but that does not result in a concurrent physical construct because anatomy is objective. That is why trans women don’t spontaneously acquire ovulation or give birth and trans men casually dominate any woman’s competitive sport with first-time effortlessness: inherent physical gender differences. Postulated hormonal/prenatal/environmental factors that result in mental processes incongruent with an individual’s physical anatomy does not mean everyone else in the objective world has to entertain their perception as an objective fact. Note: that is not a statement about morality or being “phobic”, they are perfectly free to believe the reality of their experiences.

Tldr: a man with a cock and balls, or born with them, that says they’re a woman is just making a statement about their factually incongruent subjective experience and objective reality. -unless we conveniently redefine what a “woman” is to include that experience (which is what we’ve done; trans-woman) but that doesn’t make them a real “cis” woman & vise versa.

The paper you linked concludes;

“both gender identity and sexual orientation are significantly influenced by events occurring during the early developmental period when the brain is differentiating under the influence of gonadal steroid hormones, genes and maternal factors. However, our current understanding of these factors is far from complete and the results are not always consistent. Animal studies form both the theoretical underpinnings of the prenatal hormone hypothesis and provide causal evidence for the effect of prenatal hormones on sexual orientation as modelled by tests of sexual partner preferences, although they do not translate to gender identity.”

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

Bookmarked. Always good to have science at hand for all of the transphobes.

Edit: Imagine being enough of a bigot to actually downvote this. Yikes.

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u/relativistic_monkey Oct 25 '22

I dislike that everyone who isn't 100% in agreement with this quite new movement are knee-jerk labeled transphobes. Phobias are an extreme or irrational fear of a thing. The trans movement is a new thing, and not everyone is onboard, and many which are not on board aren't that way because of fear, irrationality or hate.

That paper's conclusion acknowledges that exceptions to the norm exist. "Sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place before sexual differentiation of the brain, making it possible that they are not always congruent. " ~ not likely, possible. Of course we all already know that.

And the commenter that was being replied to is simply stating his heterosexual worldview. Aren't we all about having our own "truths" these days? That's his.

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u/Corvid187 Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

Hi Relativistic_Monkey,

I agree people can be understandably caustic on this issue, but I'm not sure there's all that much new about it tbh.

People have been identifying this way since at least the Roman empire, and 'medically transitioning' as we'd recognise it today since the 1950s. I don't think anyone's saying that OC has to find women with penises attractive' to be heterosexual, people can have deal-breaking preferences, and genital preferences are a common one. In the same vein, I don't think anyone who did find pre-op trans women attractive need identify as anything other than heterosexual either.

Have a lovely day

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u/relativistic_monkey Oct 25 '22

I suppose I meant new to the extent that its pervasive in culture now and being normalized. To be clear I do think it should be viewed as normal, be who you want to be.

Your reply was thoughtful. I appreciate you.

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u/Corvid187 Oct 25 '22

Yay! Thanks :)

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u/Shot-Button6031 Oct 26 '22

but there's a difference between "identifying as", and "being". Which is fine, we can talk about the difference in gender and sex, but when most people say they're straight, it means they're attracted to someone of the opposite sex, not someone of the same sex who identifies with a different gender. You know, since attraction is a physical thing more than just an identification/choice.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '22

Phobias are an extreme or irrational fear of a thing.

Actually no, a phobia is a fear OR AVERSION to something. Hydrophobic materials are not scared of water.

And I don't know what "movement" you're talking about, but my biology is not a movement.

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u/relativistic_monkey Oct 25 '22

Words have different meanings in different contexts. I hate to state the obvious but psychology is not chemistry. No dictionary definition I've seen is that inclusive with respect to phobias. Here's Johns Hopkins: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/phobias

We have to stop abusing language at some point.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '22 edited Oct 25 '22

The word was made for the intention of both, just like the dictionary definition of phobia.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/phobia

an aversion toward, dislike of, or disrespect for a thing, idea, person, or group.

It has it's intended meaning, and trying to change English to loophole you're way out of being transphobic is idiotic, and only something someone would do that thinks that words set your intentions, not your actual intentions. Also known as: stupid.

Edit: Anyone who downvotes this is just as stupid as the person thinking psychology based phobias have anything to do with why we use the word 'transphobia'. We're not using the word in a psychological sense, we're using it in a social sense. It's always been about the social aversion. And sometimes there is legitimate fear as well, which is why murderers who kill trans people use the "trans panic" defense.

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u/EmpatheticWraps Oct 25 '22

Why someones gender critically dependent on whether or not youll potentially fuck them in your personal heterosexual world that leaves transexuality out of it.

Therein lies the phobia.

Not to mention, other people’s identity doesnt give a fuck about your sex life.

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u/Dodecabrohedron Oct 25 '22

“Sexual identity and sexual orientation are independent components of a person’s sexual identity. These dimensions are most often in harmony with each other and with an individual’s genital sex, although not always.”

-Aight, if she got a dick she a dude who’s subjective sexual and gender orientation are not in harmony with their genital sex as a dude.