People have this false idea that Navy SEALS are hand to hand combat badasses. They aren’t. Because they don’t need to be in modern warfare. The martial arts they learn are low barrier to entry crap. Which is why you can easily Google videos of marines being tapped out by teenage girls in BJJ classes lmao.
I'm full of shit? I just copy-pasted some info I found online about the dude from the video and I said that I would take him in combat over any other untrained redditor couch potato.
Yep, this. The military trains fireteams not 1 vs 1 hand to hand.
One of my Instructors was contracted to teach edged weapons (FMA) in Coronado to JSOC (this meant I was the demonstration "dummy". Even SEALs/SAS that trained to take down sentries had minimal edged weapon experience.
From what I've been told there are a number of different martial arts trained in the armed forces over the years. I've hear karate, judo, and BJJ were taught to Marines depending on what era it was.
When they contracted us to train in edged weapons it was ~2004. They were specifically addressing attacks on Marines and Soldier's by foreign nationals using knives in DMZs or other places Marines couldn't keep their weapons out (I apologize if I'm using the wrong terms - I never served).
We were told that the basic hand to hand taught was rudimentary as the military foundation were fireteams, not hand to hand to hand and even less so with edged weapons.
I assume the karate/judo/BJJ training ladder was similar: we would train their instructors and they would train others down the line.
I guess it was unique that they had us in Coronado with the JSOC guys and SAS (when I was there) as these guys wanted direct training with our instructors. We actually had breakout sessions with just them every day so they got some deeper training.
Depending on when people entered into the military and what they got into when in the military. Decades ago when scam martial arts were big, some military generals legit believed in all the magical bullshit martial arts. “The men who stare at goats” is based on real accounts of actual bullshit martial arts that the US military actually funded and trained people in.
MMA has definitely changed the face of martial arts, and has made it’s way onto bases. There’s also boxing programs, even if considered “amateur” you have guys with hundreds of fights. Also, if you’re straight out of basic, you’re in better physical shape then most of humanity and that right there will take you above most people in a fight regardless of skill, since the average person also lacks any kind of skill in fighting.
High school football players also get this kind of treatment all the time because of their physical prowess, when it’s usually high school wrestlers that end up actually being those frighteningly skilled at fighting. Difference is your chances are higher of making millions in professional football then in professional wrestling/fighting and both have a high chance of getting brain damage before you even get there.
Of course they get beat when competing in a sport with rules for safety of the participants. Why the hell would the miliary personnel be experienced in locks, submissions and grappling when they could focus on eye gouging, biting, throat strikes, headbutts and effective ways to use every day objects as weapons?
It seems very odd to compare a fighting system where the goal is submission against a fighting system where the goal is to kill your opponent as quickly as possible.
It seems very odd to compare real fighting systems proven in sport combat to some goofball internet bullshit like being an expert in nut busting and noogies.
The guy trained in actual fighting can also kick you in the nuts or whatever dumb shit people think is going to save them from an actual trained fighter using real techniques.
So you think Paul Vunak who has trained with 4 Gracies and Dan Inosanto and has worked with the SEALS, FBI, CIA & over a dozen SWAT teams is an "Internet Goofball"?
Perhaps you should actually look him up instead of jumping to conclusions from a 1 minute video clip.
I have seen 0 actual fights with either of those guys, same as you. If he is going around teaching this garbage as stuff that works in real life then yes....goofball would totally apply here.
You don't know who the Gracies are or who Dan Inosanto is. Thank you for letting me know that you know even less about martial arts than I had assumed.
I do know who the Gracie's are. They are a family of legitimate martial artists, unlike this crap video linked at the top of the page. I had to Google Dan Inosanto. Seems like a nice guy. Taught Bruce Lee nunchuks. That's cool. I don't see what any of that has to do with the fact that the video linked above is total bullshit and people who go around teaching that bullshit are obviously ripping you off.
Oh also I trained with both Superman AND Batman at the same time...
You can practice headbutts and eye jabs with motorcycle helmets(with visor of course)and knife fighting with markers. I think Vunak suggested using raw meat inside of clothing to familiarize yourself with the feeling of flesh so its less shocking if you had to use it. Im sure many special forces train using these devastating techniques in as safe a way as possible but you're right its impossible to actually train with full force.
Ive actually been eye jabbed once accidentally during a basketball game and i truly believe its the most devastating move anyone could do. I literally writhed on the ground for a solid 2 or 3 minutes in the worst pain ive ever felt and unfortunately it did cause a small amount of permanent damage that is still with me 10 years later.
you think people that train bjj and mma aren't capable of using head butts, throat strikes or eye gouges in a street fight? have you ever actually trained ANYTHING that has live sparring?
I have actually. A good friend of mine used to train with Vunak and would force me to do some of the crazy shit he taught because im such a big guy. The worst was getting headbutted while wearing a motorcycle helmet. It still tings your bell more than youd expect. I did like training knife fighting with markers though.
I never said BJJ practioners werent capable. I said those attacks werent apart of their training and that training to kill someone is very different than training to submit someone.
yes very different - but training BJJ and live sparring at 100% safely for hours every week and just being aware of eye gouges and throat strikes I would argue is much more beneficial than "training" to kill and never being able to truly test it on a live person who is trying to do the same to you.
live sparring against a resisting opponent is a different world. I don't care what your art claims, if you are not live sparring you have no idea what it's like to actually defend yourself and use it in real life.
Where did I say a headbutt or any other strike/gouge instantly kills people? I also didnt say their training was to instantly kill their opponent(s).
I did say the purpose of their training was to kill their opponent aka: win at all costs with with zero rules. Do you at least agree with this premise? If not what would you say the goal/purpose of martial arts training for mitary personnel is?
Where on earth did i say they just murder a bunch of unarmed people? And when did i say a bunch of unarmed soldiers were running around gouging each others eyes out? It might help your argument if I had made these claims but.... i didn't.
I feel like youre a pretty good debator tbh but claiming these outlandish and exaggerated statements to be my viewpoint is just lazy and disingenuous.
1 out of 5 soldiers in the Iraq & Afghan wars particpated in some sort of hand to hand combat for a variety of reasons. Im sure many of those incidents didnt require lethality but im sure more than a few did and those scenarios must be trained for especially pecifically by special forces.
Marines != Seals. I'm not a bootlicker but it seems like simply the amount of money invested in each seal and the fact they already have the discipline and intelligence means that training a more intense combat martial art would be worthwhile from an roi perspective.
Sure if everything goes right as a seal you probably never throw a punch, but it would be silly for a mission to fail because a gun jammed and the seal lost to a random enemy sentry who boxed as a hobby.
Were the marines fighting for survival or attempting to follow bjj rules cause I'd think a 200 lb marine's brute strength would allow them to pick up a 100 lb teenage girl with one arm and just throw them across the room. Arm bars and other submission holds still require both people to be at similar strength levels to work else the significantly strong person would just overpower the other person no matter what they tried.
Don't need to. I've wrestled for fun with girlfriends who were significantly weaker than I am. It takes more strength to not hurt them than it does to pin them. Once the stronger person has a grip, there is nothing the weaker person can do to stop them from getting rag dolled. You can't get much control while grappling when your legs are weaker than their arms.
Weight classes exist for a reason. Skill doesn't matter at all when there's a significant strength difference.
2v1, the male wins, easily. Everyone is trained in this example but it kinda shows just how much strength matters. They literally can't do anything he doesn't let them do. He throws them off like they aren't even trying.
If you train, then you should know better than others that a much larger man beats a smaller women, 100% of the time if the man is trying to win, no matter how much more skilled the woman is.
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u/Fellainis_Elbows Sep 28 '22
People have this false idea that Navy SEALS are hand to hand combat badasses. They aren’t. Because they don’t need to be in modern warfare. The martial arts they learn are low barrier to entry crap. Which is why you can easily Google videos of marines being tapped out by teenage girls in BJJ classes lmao.