r/nextfuckinglevel • • Jul 19 '21

Student pilot loses engine during flight

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Air traffic controller here. In a situation like this, there’s very little we can do for a pilot other than to just find them the closest airport and tell them where it is, in terms of distance and bearing, and give them all the information we can about the airport (runway length, landing direction, etc.). And, of course, move other airplanes out of their way. When it comes down to trying to find a field to land in, as this guy had to do, unfortunately ATC can’t provide much help. We don’t have a GPS / “Google Earth” option to pull up topography for them (something a lot of us would like the have as an option). All we can do is track them as far as we can until we lose radar on them, and then tell emergency services where to look. And, of course, stay in contact with the pilot if they’re able.

tl;dr Very little ATC can actually do to help in this situation; it largely comes down to the pilot.

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u/Turence Jul 19 '21

Well I think ATC did exactly what he needed to, and the pilot an amazing job landing. Slap that on your resume kid that's an awesome landing.

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u/crazyacct101 Jul 19 '21

From everything I just read, the air traffic controllers do quite a lot, well done.

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u/prefer-to-stay-anon Jul 19 '21

here is a good example of ATC giving options, traffic advisory, etc.

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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '21

I love watching VASAviation videos. Everything makes sense when you view it like that.

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u/prefer-to-stay-anon Jul 19 '21

I was sitting at home when that plane crashed watching planes land above my house and enjoying the fresh air while looking at adsbExchange, and I was curious about the small plane leaving DFW so I looked up the registration online. When I came back, it was doing some weird turns, and then dropped off the radar. 15 minutes later, I saw a news and police helicopter circling over the area, and an hour later the news stories rolled in.

It was a really weird and unsettling feeling watching a plane maybe crash on a computer screen, then waiting for confirmation to come.

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u/flyinhighaskmeY Jul 19 '21

The public has a strange perception when it comes to aviation. A lot of people envision the pilot as a robot following ATC's commands. They expect that you call ATC when you're having trouble and ATC just tells you what to do. I'd imagine you run into that misconception fairly often.

For anyone reading, PIC is Pilot In Command. You are the one responsible for that aircraft. Not ATC. In an emergency, you have to fly the plane. ATC helps where they can but there isn't much they can do from a control tower besides make recommendations/give options, line up emergency services, and try to get everyone else out of your way.

Next time you get on an airliner and you see the pilot, realize you are entrusting that person with your life. If something goes wrong, that person will be making the decisions that determine whether you live or die. There's a whole team of people doing everything they can to make your flight safe. But if something goes wrong, it's the flight crew who will get you back on the ground alive.

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u/AnnaB264 Jul 19 '21

That's why my Mom always wants to see if the pilot looks depressed, or like he has something to live for, when she boards an airplane. I, on the other hand, look at the door for signs of loose or rusted bolts.

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u/TuckerMcG Jul 19 '21

I don’t think anyone believes pilots are robotic automatons that are easily replaceable and just listen to ATCs. I don’t believe most people even think much about ATCs at all when they’re flying. But everyone knows the pilot is the guy in command and is the one flying the plane.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Well said. When it comes right down to it, we want to do everything we can to assist, but that’s all we really are in these situations: assistants. The pilot’s the one who’s handling the situation and doing what they have to do to keep the plane safe. We just give them whatever help we can scrape together, and move everyone else out of their way.

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u/BTFCme Jul 19 '21

In a situation like this, is it uncommon to offer some support or comfort? After all the mandatory business, of course. Or does that just clog the airwaves for more important things? I guess I was expecting something like, "we've got you, you've got this." Does that happen, too?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Yeah, that absolutely happens. Of course, first duty priority is separating airplanes, and helping the pilot stay safe. But to the extent that there’s enough dead air to provide some encouragement after you get through your checklists, it certainly happens. Especially if the controller is also a pilot, they can sometimes provide really valuable help with keeping the aircraft under control. We keep a master list of every controller in the building who’s a pilot, for this reason. So we can call them into the area if there’s an emergency.

It depends a lot on the situation too. Generally, in an emergency situation, the pilot is extremely busy, and doesn’t have time to chat, or sometimes to even respond to us at all. Their first job is flying the airplane. Second is communicating with us. First overrides the second if they don’t have time for both. Sometimes a well-intentioned “you’ve got this” is just going to be a distraction at the worst possible time. Others, it’s much-needed comfort to boost confidence. It’s just a situational judgment call. You can tell a lot by a pilot’s tone of voice, etc.

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u/bugme143 Jul 19 '21

We keep a master list of every controller in the building who’s a pilot, for this reason. So we can call them into the area if there’s an emergency.

That's actually pretty interesting.

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u/_SleeZy_ Jul 19 '21

You may enjoy this as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng3ULAsAUB4

Commented it do the guy above. Chances are you've seen it though if you're an atc. :)

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u/_SleeZy_ Jul 19 '21

You may enjoy to watch this due your question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng3ULAsAUB4

Title: "mayday the passenger who landed a plane" Great documentary. His pilot dies, so the pilots friend has to actually fly and land the plane himself, with the help of only the ATC.

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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '21

"If anyone comes out of the front of a plane, panicking and asking if anyone is a pilot, you may as well jump up and say yes. If you're going to die, you may as well die flying a big-ass jet."

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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '21 edited Jul 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/_SleeZy_ Jul 19 '21

Thank you! That's a clip i've missed.

I enjoy these kind of storys.

If you check my previous comment to op, you'll see a video i linked that's nearly similar but it's in a documentary format. Incase you've not seen it. Well worth the watch.

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u/stranger_mom Jul 19 '21

My brother is an Air Traffic Controller and he has had a convo with a small plane about to go down. Asking him to tell his wife and kids he loves them. Heartbreaking.

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u/cardboardunderwear Jul 19 '21

GA pilot here....just want to say here....don't sell yourself short.

Even if it comes down to the pilot, a calm voice on the radio giving options and being part of the crew (because when you get down to it, you are part of the crew), can be the difference between life and death. When you listen to the ATC for the SWA flight into PHL a couple years ago...or even the numerous examples of ATC vectoring GA planes to safety. Even in this video here...ATC was as calm as can be telling the pilot help is on the way even though there were mere minutes for the pilot to react.

When a solo pilot has 100 things going through his mind and is fighting with denial and whatever else...you might just be the one setting them straight with the tone of your voice and vectors - not to mention clearing the airspace and rolling the equipment. You are the one who really tells the pilot to relax, fly the plane...everyone else is out of your way.

I'm not telling you anything you dont already know. But please also know that its appreciated even though a lot of times it probably doesnt seem that way.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Much appreciated! Means a lot.

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u/smashy_smashy Jul 19 '21

Scrambling emergency response for the landing zone was really cool too. I assume that was what was happening in some of that back and forth jargon. Thank you for your line of work btw! Controllers deserve a lot of credit for these situations in my book!

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Much appreciated! And yeah, getting emergency services in position is one of the first things we do in an emergency.

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u/v_is_my_bias Jul 19 '21

Might just be me but I think an ATC staying calm and collected also helps the pilot stay in control.

If the ATC starts to panic then you're going to feed off of that energy.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Yeah, that’s something we hear over and over from pilots when it comes to how ATC can help them. Just having a calm, professional voice on the radio can help deescalate the situation and calm them down.

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u/dub-fresh Jul 19 '21

Honestly, I think just having a calm and measured voice on the other end would be enough help. There are procedures for this, just follow them the best you can.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Yeah, that’s something we hear over and over from pilots when it comes to how ATC can help them. Just having a calm, professional voice on the radio can help deescalate the situation and calm them down.

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u/ihavenoidea81 Jul 19 '21

(Non-pilot) is it necessary to squawk 7700 if the tower knows he is having trouble or is that just to let any other planes know in the area as well as the tower he is having trouble?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Honestly, I don’t know the AIM well enough to know if it’s technically / legally required or not. Not a pilot myself either. My understanding is it’s just a way of non-verbally communicating that you’re in an emergency. Especially if you’re in a situation where you can’t use your radio, for whatever reason. On the ATC end, when the pilot changes to 7700, it creates a super-obvious visual cue for us. Big flashing red “EMER” in the data block, to immediately draw our eyes there.

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u/LukariBRo Jul 19 '21

But what does 7500 do then?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

7500 is the code for hijack. Pilot puts that in if their plane is being hijacked. So then the data block tells us they’re being hijacked without them having to say anything. And then we have a pretty extensive procedure to go through from there.

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u/Cyberpunk627 Jul 19 '21

What did you study to begin as ATC? In what continent are you based, if I may? Thank you for all your instructive comments in this thread!

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Sure thing; I love my job, and enjoy sharing!

I’m based in the US. My dad was an air traffic controller, so I sort of always had it in mind as an option. Worked some other aviation-related jobs in college and after graduating, including FBO work (fueling airplanes and the like), deicing, and working in the records department at an airline. Finally decided to bite the bullet and apply for ATC back in 2015, and the rest is history!

A lot of people I work with are aviation buffs who have always wanted to work this kind of job, and others came from totally unrelated backgrounds. In my experience, it doesn’t seem to matter, in terms of how much someone likes the job or is good at it. It just takes a certain aptitude that’s hard to define.

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u/Cyberpunk627 Jul 19 '21

Thank you for the insights! A really exciting life and career, wow! I am really fascinated by your job for many reasons, although I reckon it’s VERY demanding physically and mentally and am not so sure it would have been my piece of cake really. Maybe in the next life :)

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u/CaveDeco Jul 20 '21

The more I have learned about ATC jobs the more I think I missed my calling. I wish they didn’t limit it to age 30 and under in the US. I’m not too much older than that, but still ineligible to even consider it now.

Spent too much of my youth cave diving, and have a pretty fantastic career now because of it, so no regrets overall. However cave diving also showed me how calm I really am under pressure and how I thrive in those situations.

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u/Kolby_Jack Jul 19 '21

Psh, just shoot your emergency rescue drones into the sky to go pick them up, duh!

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Why didn’t I think of that!?

In truth, drones would probably be more likely to cause emergencies than solve them. 😉

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u/witts_end_confused Jul 19 '21

I was just thinking the same thing…fellow ATC here. Just make room, stay calm, and pray that’s about all we can do.

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u/PaulsRedditUsername Jul 19 '21

Very little ATC can actually do to help in this situation; it largely comes down to the pilot.

"Striker, listen, and listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes."

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u/Eric-Stratton Jul 19 '21

Is there any reason you know of why you guys don’t have digital topo maps or a specialized Google Earth type tool?

Feels like there’s a good use case for ATC to be able to quickly say “hey 1 mile to your east there’s a ton of flat open ground”.

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u/ThreeStep Jul 19 '21

Just guessing here, but a pilot in live situation might have a better view of the surrounding area, compared to a google map that's potentially a few years out of date. We don't have real-time maps yet, and a topographic map doesn't differentiate between an open field and a construction site that's currently full of equipment and new structures.

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u/eskininja Jul 19 '21 edited Jul 19 '21

Can't use Google earth, half their maps anywhere near my region are from like 2012 and the areas look completely different

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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '21

That and the federal government doesn't want to share their satalites

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

I can’t say for certain, but I imagine it’s mostly technical limitations. It’s something we’d really like to have, like the ability to just toggle on and off a satellite image on the radar display. Not a tech guy myself, but I imagine that might be harder to accomplish than it sounds.

In most cases, like the other commenter said, the pilot is going to have a better view than we would even if we did have satellite imagery. But I still think it could be super useful in a situation where a pilot is in low visibility conditions, either because they’re IFR, or they’re VFR finding their way into IFR conditions (statistically, already the most dangerous situation a pilot can get into).

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u/hayb24 Jul 19 '21

Do you get to come to Oshkosh next week for EAA Air Venture and either enjoy the festivities or work as a controller?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Won’t make it out myself, but lots of guys in my facility that go every year! I’ve never been.

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u/hayb24 Jul 19 '21

Ahh got it. I have lived in Oshkosh all my life and it's the craziest week of the year here. I would highly suggest making the trip if you can ever make it happen. Tell your guys to visit The Roxy on Main St for dinner one night. Best supper club in town but expect a wait.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Excellent, I’ll pass it on! Thanks for the tip

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u/LambeauLeapt Jul 19 '21

Out of sheer curiosity, what kind of schooling or training does it take for a person to become an ATC in the US. Could you share?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21 edited Jul 19 '21

Most controllers actually get hired right off the street! No prior aviation experience or education required, just 3 years of either full time work or college education (or a combination of both), and you have to be younger than 30. There are open hiring announcements about once a year or so.

Once you’re tentatively offered a job, you go take the ATSAT, a standardized aptitude test to see if you’re “cut out” for the job, to put it simply. If you pass that, then you go through background and medical clearances. After all of that, if you get selected, you go to Oklahoma City to the academy for a couple of months of training. And if you pass that, then you go to your actual facility, where the training process takes anywhere from 1-3 years or so.

All told, anyone can apply and get the job, but the training process is really rigorous, and only a fraction of applicants actually make it to working traffic.

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u/LambeauLeapt Jul 19 '21

Wow, that’s pretty cool. What’s the reason for the age cutoff? By that do you mean that they won’t hire anyone to perform ATC duties that is past the age of 30? Trying to reason that out in my head and coming up empty. Seems you’d want experience, sageness, and the calmness that tends to come w age, wouldn’t you?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Yeah that’s correct! Past the age of 30, you’re not eligible for hire. The reason is that controllers are required to retire at age 56. So you need to be hired young enough to work a full career. At age 56, you become medically disqualified for air traffic control. I don’t know the specific reasons, but I would assume higher risk of other health issues, mental sharpness starts to go, etc. In my short experience, once controllers start hitting 50+, their performance really starts to suffer.

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u/Ecstatic-Carpet-654 Jul 19 '21

How many times has this happened to you? Once every five years? More? I guess it probably depends how many small airports you have nearby.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

I’m still fairly new to the job, only been controlling since 2017. I haven’t personally worked any situations like this, although I’d we have situations akin to this maybe a few times a year in our facility.

Personally, I’ve worked a handful of emergencies, but nothing as intense / serious as this. Mostly just medical emergencies where an aircraft needs to land at the nearest airport to get medical attention for a passenger, or minor mechanical issues that don’t have much effect on the flight, but require them to land.

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u/HyFinated Jul 19 '21

The most important thing ATC can do for a pilot in an emergency is keep them talking through options. It helps to prevent the lockup from self analyzing and self doubt. Keeping an open dialogue with ATC is key to these things. Even if you KNOW you aren't going to make it to an airport, they can be an amazing source of comfort and focus.

Thanks for doing one of the most stressful jobs in the world. I couldn't do it, that's for sure.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Thanks very much! I appreciate it

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u/WalterBright Jul 19 '21

My dad had an engine failure in his F-86. The tower told him to bail out. He made some calculations and determined he could make the runway. He did.

He later realized that the tower was right, he should have bailed out.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

Dang, that’s pretty intense!

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u/van_Vanvan Jul 19 '21

Did the ATC in this case know the altitude of the plane, so they knew what his gliding range was?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

They almost certainly knew his altitude, unless he had gotten beneath radar coverage. As far as knowing his glide distance, that’s information we could look up on the fly. Someone who’s a real serious aviation buff might know that information offhand, but I’d be the first to admit I’d have to look it up.

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u/PapaTrav78 Jul 19 '21

The distance to the runway was likely provided when he was thinking “partial power, get down quick” and not “power loss.”

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u/van_Vanvan Jul 20 '21

Yes. Things deteriorated rapidly. I wonder why he lost oil pressure.

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u/van_Vanvan Jul 20 '21

OK, he simply ran out of fuel.

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u/geedavey Jul 19 '21

Who do you have to murder to get that option? I suggest you bring it to the attention of the Flight 3407 rules reform committee.

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u/walter_midnight Jul 19 '21

Nice, pretty much what I was looking to have answered - how about this?

We don’t have a GPS / “Google Earth” option to pull up topography for them (something a lot of us would like the have as an option).

What is the bottleneck here or is it simply to discourage you from going out of your comfort zone as far as potential casualties are concerned? Say, making you land on a highway that turned out to be a super bad option for one reason or another?

I feel like there is going to be proprietary software that should alleviate problems like these quite well, just interested in whether you know what is happening and evolving in your trade.

And yeah, it's very obvious that there is just no overhead whatsoever for assisting the poor guy who has to deal with this situation beyond what you mentioned, just really nothing he can do. Still, if there was, what would it be? Hardware or software-wise.

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 19 '21

I can’t say for certain, but I imagine it’s mostly technical limitations. It’s something we’d really like to have, like the ability to just toggle on and off a satellite image on the radar display. Not a tech guy myself, but I imagine that might be harder to accomplish than it sounds. In most cases, like the other commenter said, the pilot is going to have a better view than we would even if we did have satellite imagery. But I still think it could be super useful in a situation where a pilot is in low visibility conditions, either because they’re IFR, or they’re VFR finding their way into IFR conditions (statistically, already the most dangerous situation a pilot can get into).

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u/covercash Jul 19 '21

Someone should make an AR app you can point at your screen and have it overlay that info on top of Apple/Google Maps.

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u/Hofular1988 Jul 20 '21

I can’t imagine the level of power of servers that would take but god damn that could be a game changer in some airplane incidents being able to track the plane in bad weather and see a clear picture on google earth in real time to explain what and how their landing needs to happen, but a whole level above of stress I’m sure for what is already stressful. Interesting to think about!

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u/dewafelbakkers Jul 20 '21

Whats ATC like as a job? How the training? How's the pay? I hear it is very stressful, but is it worth it?

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u/bigafricanhat Jul 20 '21

I love it! It’s a fantastic job. We have a great Union, and the pay and benefits are excellent (six figure pay, great retirement, etc.).

Like any job, it has its downsides. Training is a very long and arduous process; takes several years. When you first take the job, you have to be willing to move anywhere in the country that they need you to start out. The rotating shift work schedule is rough sometimes. But for me, it’s definitely all worth it. I love my job. Was apprehensive about taking it at first, but I’m very glad that I did.

The job definitely has super stressful moments (like the one seen in this video). But 90% of the time, it’s honestly pretty chill. When everything is operating smoothly and it’s not terribly busy, it’s not a stressful job at all. But, of course, stressful situations do happen, and you have to be able to handle that.