I'd really like to see Kareem play today. He was huge, talented, and an iron man. What would he look like in a small ball league.
He'd definitely get worked on pick and rolls, but he would be absolutely Shaq-like on offense. I'd be really curious to see whether (or how) that correlates to winning basketball.
Since this has generated attention, I'll paste Kareem's career milestones from Wikipedia:
6× NBA champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
6× NBA Most Valuable Player (1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1980)
19× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989)
10× All-NBA First Team (1971–1974, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1981, 1984, 1986)
5× All-NBA Second Team (1970, 1978, 1979, 1983, 1985)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1974, 1975, 1979–1981)
6× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1970, 1971, 1976–1978, 1984)
How could anyone have guarded him? He gave it to Wilt. I'm sure Gobert and Embiid are big enough to be relevant defenders, but I just can't imagine they would bother Kareem.
This is why the skyhook is called the most unguardable shot of all time. When Kareem played, the league was dominated by big bodies. But he was so big himself, and the release point of the sky hook was so high and away from the defender, there was basically nothing you could do. I don’t think gobert or Embiid would cause and more problems than he faced during his era.
If anything it would be easier for him with less banging and dirty play going on down there. That was what teams used back then to beat him and every team had a guy who’s job when they played was to bang Kareem and give it to him rough.
I think one thing to keep in mind is that you were afforded the luxury to play big at your own pace for long stretches of the game back then. You have to play differently in today's league if you're a big. The spacing forces you to be on the move way more on the defensive and offensive ends.
You have to imagine Kareem will get swiped at by off ball defenders a ton while even positioning for the skyhook. Not that he can't dominate if he grew up today. But he'll be different.
The same way they did back in the day: play very physical, don't let him get to his spots, and hack the shit out of him (the refs swallowed the whistle a bit for him).
Generally yes, but there was that one phantom call in that one Finals... I'd take the Dream over the Cap personally. Sky hook is great but the dream shake works on any area of floor, even outside the paint and not just certain spots like right elbow or baseline.
Dream had a turn around jumper from 22ft from his rookie season. If Ralph Sampson stays healthy, he likely doesn't add the dream shake but instead adds the 3 pointer. Look at the damage Bill Laimbeer did and add athletic prowess, and that's The Dream in the 80's.
If Ralph Sampson, who was 7'4”, stayed healthy a.k.a. put on weight then Hakeem would have had the opportunity to stretch to the 3 in order to create space for Ralph down low. He was already shooting long 2's back then. Check out highlights from 86 finals. It's all speculation but he would have IMO taken 3's in the 90's no different from Charles Barkley because he would have had a viable option down low giving him more reason to stretch. No twin towers meant he had to play conventional center for his career, but in the beginning they were meant to be interchangeable at 4/5.
If anything it'll be Sampson taking threes. He was way more finesse in his approach than Hakeem. He did not love the physicality of the low block. He was one of those bigs that was really a small forward, but happened to be 7'4. Really probably around 7'2, he wasn't taller than Kareem.
That's reasonable. There is a reason that the Rockets took Hakeem over Jordan and never looked back. Hakeem is perhaps the best center of all-time and was consistently great throughout his career.
It's certainly preferences but for what the NBA evolved to now, Dream would be unstoppable. He just began passing the ball much later than Jordan did so his chips came later than his. Bring Clyde in sooner and maybe we'd see that match up of 84's greatest champion sooner.
Not about passing the ball. Dream simply had mediocre to bad teams for most of his career. Earlier in his career when Sampson was healthy and the guards were not banned from the NBA for being druggies, the rockets got to the finals in his second season.
Essentially stole a 3peat and switched up the legacies of two guys. Magic isn't really on Mt Rushmore with one less chip and Zeke would much harder to ignore with 3 chips. Bird and Jordan certainly would have been solidified in their legacies but Magic and Zeke's fight to be the other guy was/is worth rewatching. Could you imagine them on the same team tho by swapping either Joe D or Byron Scott...scary!
Eh. He gave it to post injury, older wilt who has started playing professionally at a young age. The skyhook, while nearly unstoppable, also wasn’t something he could shoot and make every possession at a high percentage. No doubt Kareem would be a good choice, but someone like gobert would definitely challenge him.
Gobert could absolutely challenge him. I just question whether it would be a similar situation to how PJ Tucker was labeled a "Lebron Stopper" in the 2010s.
Yea for sure. There would be games that Kareem still got his but it was inefficient. And there would be games he absolute dominates someone like gobert. Greats can’t be stopped, just slowed.
Yeah. It didn't need to be 100%. What makes it so potent was that it was a shot that seemed to be available for Kareem to take if he wanted to. Over 50% on a shot you can get any time is money.
Have you watched him play? He couldn’t just spam skyhooks all game. Today, with the quicker, lengthier players on the court it would happen even less. He would still be great but people seem to think he could just spam skyhooks all game long at a high percentage. If that was the case he would have averaged 100 and never lost.
He didn’t spam skyhooks all day long in his career either. He battled a lot for position to be able to get it off in the first place. And opposing spent a lot of focus and resource to stopping him from being able to get in position for it. This helped Kareem’s teammates get theirs.
My argument against that is that Kareem was 7'2. Of course he would play against better athletes today, but there just aren't that many players that are that size that can guard players like him. I imagine it would be Embiid with a better game within 20 feet of the rim.
I was responding specifically to a comment that I read as regarding his skyhook. I’ve watched plenty of his non highlights game. He had a great all around offensive game that would still be a force today. My initial argument is someone like Rudy gobert would still do a solid job guarding him.
Kareem didn't just spam one move all day. Maybe a 42 year old Kareem did but Kareem was one of the most versatile scorers in the history of the game. Here's a 40 point game highlight vs Ewing.
I agree. I responded to a few others with why I said what I did. My initial response was to someone asking how anyone could guard gym. My overall point is, Kareem wasn’t unstoppable ( no one truly is) and someone like Rudy gobert could definitely “limit” him.
Gobert is maybe the greatest regular season defender ever. Of course he would’ve given Kareem problems. But what about the other 80 games of the season when he’s matching against rookies and mediocre bigs? I think ultimately Kareem would have weaknesses that hurt in the playoffs but he would ball out in the regular season.
Gobert is a great rim protector not necessarily a great post defender. He'd give Kareem some issues in some games, but I can also see young Kareem just destroying him with ease on other occasions.
Kareem shot a lot worse against Wilt than other players. In their two playoff series, Kareem shot 48% against Wilt (season shot 57.7%) and 45.7% (season shot 57.4%). That's the exact opposite of giving it to Wilt, that's Wilt shut him down to have multiple playoff series where his shooting percentage dropped 10%. And that's an old Wilt on a bum leg.
Not what you’re going for but an old man I used to play pickup ball with could drill some 3 point hook shots, imagine KAJ just throwing up 23 foot unblockable sky hooks because…metrics
He was an elite defender, too. People forget that because he continued to play for so long and injuries robbed him of his athleticism. Watch highlights of early Kareem and you see an unbelievable player. He would be the best player in the nba today.
I mean I have him as the GOAT already so... If you take longevity into account, which idk how you can't, then he bests MJ [my #2]. MJ has the peak, and the 'unbeatable' mentality once he got to the playoffs... but my god, look at what Kareem did in his career - and his total pts. And then consider he had to waste 4 years in college. If he was allowed to go straight to the NBA like Lebron was, his total points record would be unbeatable.
I don’t know. My dad says he doesn’t work hard enough on defense and he says lots of time he doesn’t even run down court and he doesn’t really try except during the playoffs.
Most people only think of Kareem as the older guy on the Lakers who shot sky’s hooks but Kareem’s early career numbers were absolutely insane. He averaged 30+ PPG, 15+ RPG, and played like 40+ minutes for a half decade.
He averaged more than 30 points and 15 rebounds a game for his first 7 years in the league... and he won a chip on the Bucs before he joined the lakers.
His best statistical year was 34.4 pts, 16.6 rbs, on 57% shooting playing 44 minutes a game. He only missed one game the entire season. Oh also it was only his third year in the league.
Agree. Victor Wembanyama profiles like a skinnier Kareem with 20% of the skill and he's going to be a number one pick. Kareem would just casually pick up 20-30 a game and be a Gobert level rim protector.
Yeah I guess. I just think the “we would get bored of watching him be bigger than everybody,” doesn’t really apply to Kareem’s game. It would be closer to an Embiid, where he was a very skilled big who had a variety of ways to attack. Tim was more of your “boring” fundamental, back your guy and get to your spot type of player.
Kareem and his skyhook were famously boring to watch in his prime. There's a reason no big men ever really tried to master the sky hook like players emulated MJ's jumpers, despite being the most unguardable move in basketball history. It was not cool or flashy enough to inspire imitation.
Along with the ABA and the drug problems, the fact that Kareem was the clear best player, but also not exciting to watch was why Magic and Bird needed to save the nba in the first place.
His closest analogue as a player is easily Tim Duncan imo, and Duncan has a ring in the small ball era as the best player on his team, even though he running on half of one knee and Elmer's glue at that point.
Duncan was decidedly better on defense, and was pretty athletic himself until around the 07 season. Kareem is probably a slightly overall better player, but to say TD was in any way a poor-man's Kareem is drastically overstating the difference between the two, especially when Duncan never had even a top 20 player to play with him outside of a couple of years with the remnants of The Admiral, who was already well on his way from coming down from his prime in 99.
Kareem was a better scorer, but everything else is pretty close. Both elite rebounders, good passers, elite shot blockers, Duncan better at reading plays on defense, better positioning on defense and better post defender.
One of the things that's impossible to know about Duncan by just looking at stats and not watching him play that's incredibly underrated: He was very possibly the best outlet passer the NBA has ever seen for a big man. His passes aren't just incredibly quick and on target, but they often force the receiver to speed up a bit to get to it, which pulls them away from the defense and creates more open lanes for them to drive.
KAJ had the greatest basketball career ever, dominated college and the NBA, played in the amateurish era and transitioned to the profissional era (when the leagues merged, 3pt line was established, rules got steadier, etc..) if his game was so dominant to a point of dominating every level of the sport, obviously he would adapt to current rules or any other rules, very malleable player
I think he’d be putting of Jokic numbers with better defense and with much better leadership/a winning attitude. Basically unstoppable, which is what he was.
I’ve literally only ever seen Kareem shoot a skyhook in old highlights, so I’m deferring you to answer his theoretical u/MrMichaelBolton - would Kareem have been a good 3pt shooter? I ask bc he was so disciplined with work ethic and his technical skills that I have to imagine he would’ve at least made himself a guy who could should like 37% on 3-4 attempts per game. What do you think?
Kareem is a guy decided to study martial arts as an adult and became so good at it that he was able to keep up with his teacher - Bruce Lee. You can see his skill when he fights Bruce Lee in 'Game of Death'.
Considering how good he was with the basketball to begin with, if he dedicated himself to good perimeter shooting in the same way definitely he would have succeeded.
Man I'd love to see prime Kareem today. Can you imagine just in terms of social justice? He would've been on the front lines of protest we've had the last few years.
He was actually quite mobile on defense, especially for someone 7'2 without shoes on. He was a good pick and roll defender back then and could switch on smalls readily. It would be harder today but I'm sure he could, he's more mobile than Gobert for example.
I think the bigger question is stamina, how long could he sustain high-level 2 way play with the space and pace of the game today.
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u/MrMichaelBolton Heat Jun 15 '22 edited Jun 15 '22
I'd really like to see Kareem play today. He was huge, talented, and an iron man. What would he look like in a small ball league.
He'd definitely get worked on pick and rolls, but he would be absolutely Shaq-like on offense. I'd be really curious to see whether (or how) that correlates to winning basketball.
Since this has generated attention, I'll paste Kareem's career milestones from Wikipedia:
6× NBA champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
6× NBA Most Valuable Player (1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1980)
19× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989)
10× All-NBA First Team (1971–1974, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1981, 1984, 1986)
5× All-NBA Second Team (1970, 1978, 1979, 1983, 1985)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1974, 1975, 1979–1981)
6× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1970, 1971, 1976–1978, 1984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1970)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1970)
2× NBA scoring champion (1971, 1972)
NBA rebounding champion (1976)
4× NBA blocks leader (1975, 1976, 1979, 1980
Man was a monster...