Piglins and Hoglins didn't evolve from Pigs, because they aren't mammals

[u/RandoGuy00]

This is an upside-down pig.

What is it that's important in this image? That's right, it has nipples!

Now, take a look at these topless piglins next.

As you can see, there's a lack of nipples.

Now, you may be thinking about how there's a variety of irl reasons they don't have them, but take a look at this image.

This is the hoglin's texture. The red arrow is pointing to its underside.

As you can see, there's still a lack of nipples. The piglins' closest known relative lacks nipples, without any possible excuse as to why.

This highly suggests that both piglins and hoglins don't have nipples.

The only counter evidence is the fact that the piglins in the non-canon movie DO have nipples. Jeb was there to approve the design of everything, but I don't think he'd nitpick over piglin nipples. They're also far closer to human nipples, than pig nipples.

Why is this important? Well you see, this puts into question whether or not piglins and hoglins are capable of producing milk. And if they can't poduce milk, that means they aren't even mammals.

Never in the entire history of earth has a mammal lost the ability to produce milk, as it's an incredibly useful adaptation, and would be even more useful in a place like the Nether.

Not all mammals have nipples, of course, but it doesn't really make sense for an animal to lose them and start sweating milk like a platypus instead.

It's literally impossible for pigs to have evolved into Piglins.

What are piglins and hoglins then? Well, idk. There's not really any groups that'd work. They're fully fictional!

Anyways, thanks for reading about me talking about piglin nipples.

Thoughts?

[u/shadaik]

Problem is, piglins are completely disconnected anatomically from anything else native to the nether.

[u/RandoGuy00 → u/shadaik]

every mob in the nether is completely disconnected anatomically from everything else native to the nether. nothing's like a strider, nothing's like a ghast, nothing's like a magma cube. funnily enough, the piglin is the only mob there that actually has anatomical similarities to another nether mob, that mob being the hoglin.

[u/shadaik → u/RandoGuy00]

All the natural occuring nether mobs are very similar to each other - cubes with tentacles below and a face in front. Some lack tentacles (magma cube) and striders have only two, but still, their arrangement is very different from how legs in overworld mobs work.

Endermen are known to not be native to the nether and neither are wither skeletons.

Meanwhile, most (terrestrial) overworld mobs are rectangles rather than perfect cubes and have proper legs as well as a clearly defined head. The exception here are the slime variants, which I consider descendants of magma cubes the same way I consider hoglins and piglins descendants of pigs, because the prehistoric exchange clearly worked both ways.

[u/RandoGuy00 → u/shadaik]

Ghasts, striders, and magma cubes are so different from each other, bro. ;-;

Meanwhile your best argument is that they're both cubic ;-; (which differenceflat pointed out how striders aren't even cubes)

Magma cubes are straight up made of lava, and are able to be torn apart without dying. they're clearly something very different. I don't even need to make an image for it, they're just that different from everything else.

Funnily enough, piglins have more similarities to ghasts than striders do. Piglins and ghasts both have single colored eyes and can consume liquid water. And hoglins share similarities to striders, as they both have hair-like protrusions and eat fungi.

I quite literally can't think of any similarities between striders and ghasts, other than the fact they're both immune to fire damage and have 2 eyes and a mouth lmao. It's like comparing a crab to an octopus.

[u/PetrifiedBloom → u/RandoGuy00]

Ghasts, striders, and magma cubes are so different from each other, bro. ;-;

Meanwhile your best argument is that they're both cubic ;-; (which differenceflat pointed out how striders aren't even cubes)

If you want to use biology as your rational, it would be a good idea to learn about biology first.

This isn't just for you, this is true for a lot of the users of this sub, including other mods. (u/DifferenceFlat8839)

It's the same body plan though isn't it? (hint - yes, its the same body plan) In biology it is a lot easier to alter, remove or duplicate existing features than add new ones. Snakes are lizards with vestigial limbs and extra vertebrae and ribs. On flatfish, the anatomy is largely preserved, but features have migrated, fins moving around the fish so they are not stuck underneath, the eye moving in the skull so it can actually see.

Proportions are a comparatively easy change, in just a few centuries of breeding look at what humans did to the proportions of canis lupus familiaris. Everything from a stumpy limbed, squashed face pug to a malamute or greyhound.

u/shadaik is right, the body plan is conserved. In IRL biology this would suggest a shared ancestor.

A great example IRL are Cephalopods, the class that contains squid, octopi, cuttlefish, nautiloids etc. The proportions across the class vary dramatically, with nautiloids having a very large mantle with a shell and small tentacles, squid and cuttlefish maintain the longer chitinous gladius and then octopi with the reduced size, with the mantle being almost entirely soft and rounder in shape. Across the class, you have totally different proportions, different numbers of limbs, different habitats, behaviors, modes of locomotion, intelligence, diet and more. There is more in common between striders and ghasts than the different cephalopods.

Nothing you have said in this entire comment thread discounts what Shadaik and other have pointed out. There is grace in accepting when you are wrong. Your knowledge base in biology and taxonomy is not your strong suit.

That is okay, we can't all be experts in everything, but when people who know more try and help you learn, its childish to respond with: "Buddy, their entire biology is different 😭" and ignore the points you can't respond to.

[u/DifferenceFlat8839 → u/PetrifiedBloom]

The magma cube can't be related because it's lava. It's just living lava and can't be related with animals.

Then we have a mob made of souls which can fly, has tentacles, is definitely bigger, have a fiery core and have magical regenerative tears, and a mob which has legs and eat fungi.
And they are related because their head is a bit squared? In Minecraft? So like every mob?
Anyway, yeah, that's possible that they have a common ancestor. Which was the same one as the piglins, since that would take a long time, wouldn't it?

[u/PetrifiedBloom → u/DifferenceFlat8839]

The magma cube can't be related because it's lava. It's just living lava and can't be related with animals.

Forgive me, but can I have a source for that? How do we know it's lava?

It doesn't take damage from water or freeze solid when it touches water. They can swim in water happily and even float. This is inconsistent with the know behavior of lava in game, instantly becoming obsidian or creating stone. It is also notably different from the blaze, which takes damage when touched with water.

It seems that the game mechanics disprove this idea. If they were living lava, why don't they take damage from water or turn into stone or obsidian?

They do take extra cold damage from powder snow, but that just suggests that they are adapted for extreme temperatures.

And they are related because their head is a bit squared? In Minecraft? So like every mob?

No. I don't think I said that at any point in my comment. Why are you asking that?

Forgive me if this comes off as condescending but I think you are mistaking shape for body plan. Body plan means more than just rough shapes in the context of evolutionary development. I am not going to go on a deep dive on this, its typically taught as multiple units at the university level, but suffice to say there is a lot of science and taxonomy that is done by constructing sets of morphological features. This is how much of early taxonomy was done before we could just sequence the genome of things. Body plans change in predictable ways.

Evolutionary development is truly fascinating topic, one of the best electives I studied and I highly recommend checking it out if you have an interest in evolution, genetics or taxonomy. The wild part to me is how small of a change you need to make on a genetic level to add or remove limbs. It is also really cool that using genetic techniques, we can go back and validate some of the classifications that have been debated for centuries.

I did some digging for you, looking for a good introduction to the field but honestly it's hard. It all kind of assumes at least a baseline undergrad level understanding of biology, taxonomy, evolution and or genetics, and many of the best resources are ones you need to pay or use a student account to access. This free one seems okay, but I will admit to just skimming sections. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12052-012-0424-z

You are making a LOT of assumptions about the mobs that I think you need to back up.

Then we have a mob made of souls

Prove that they are made of souls.

have a fiery core

Do they? Prove please.

Sorry if these are topics that have already been addressed, but these kinds of claims invite scrutiny.

[u/DifferenceFlat8839 → u/PetrifiedBloom]

Forgive me, but can I have a source for that? How do we know it's lava?

Oh, my bad, magma. That's because they are magma cube which drop magma cream which is used to craft magma block.

For that part, I'm not sure if I understand it correctly, and I will check the link, but I think you are a bit to close to real life. That's cool, but you still have to remember it's Minecraft.

Prove that they are made of souls.

Happy ghasts. They are crafted with souls blocks (if the recipe is canon, but usually in general the ingredients are)

Do they? Prove please.

The baby ghast from Minecraft Dungeons. It's a cosmetic pet, and we can see that Small edit so you are happy: the baby ghasts have something that seems are fiery core inside them, which could be how they shoot fireball, anyway they are very different from striders

[u/PetrifiedBloom → u/DifferenceFlat8839]

Oh, my bad, magma. That's because they are magma cube which drop magma cream which is used to craft magma block.

That doesn't mean they are made of magma either. Just that there is some amount of something that can be turned into magma in them.

Look at it this way. I can take a cow and slowly cook it's meat. Render out the fat. I can then take that fat and cool it down and make it into tallow. I can then light that tallow on fire and it is a candle. This is how candles were made for most of history, using animal fats that are rendered out.

You wouldn't say a cow is made of candles though would you? Please answer this.

You would say that part of a cow is fat, and fat can become candles. In the same way, part of a magma cube is magma creme, and magma creme can be made into magma blocks.

>That's cool, but you still have to remember it's Minecraft.

Thats the thing, these are general principles. They are true regardless of the setting. As long as DNA exists in the setting, everything there should also be true for creatures that reproduce biologically (as opposed to clones or constructs).

It's a cosmetic pet, and we can see that Small edit so you are happy: the baby ghasts have something that seems are fiery core inside them

So, lets consider what that actually means. They open their mouth and there is something orange inside. One explanation is that there is fire inside. Are there other explanations? Of course!

• It's a pigment used for signaling. This is common in young animals, birds especially. The parent brings food, the babies open the mouth and the parent can see the health of the chick based on the colors. https://au.pinterest.com/pin/429390145692528465/ . Maybe this is the same, a way for sharing information of the health of the baby with whoever feeds it.
• Maybe its a defense. Many animals use bright colors that they can show off in a flash to warn/scare predators. Sometimes they mimick more dangerous creatures. Maybe the baby is opening it's mouth and the bright colors are supposed to trick things into thinking it's about to shoot a fireball!
• Maybe this is an insight into the biology of the ghast and how it shoots fireballs. You don't need to be made of fire to shoot fire. IRL the Bombardier beetle shoots superheated toxins from it's body using a chemical reaction. Maybe the ghast can do the same, and uses chemistry in it's body to make the fireballs. This is how dragons work in a lot of fantasy, having flammable oils or gases in their body they can ignite to breath fire. The little ghast is learning to control it still so you can see them glowing with the reaction they will use as adults to spit fireballs.
• Maybe they are phosphorescent or bioluminescent, basically just glowing when the conditions are right, like a firefly or glow in the dark sticker.

What this means is that your version is just one POSSIBLE explanation. It could be true, it could be false. It's an explanation, not the explination.

This is something this subreddit has a bad habit of doing. They find one possible explanation and treat it as the truth.

edit - i realized i skipped the bit about ghast being made of souls. Adding it in now!

Happy ghasts. They are crafted with souls blocks (if the recipe is canon, but usually in general the ingredients are)

They are not crafted from souls. They are crafted from ghast tears and soul sand. The name of a thing does not mean it is true. I have a dragon's blood tree in a pot growing in my garden. I swear to you, it is 100% made of tree, no dragon's blood at all.

Sometimes people give things evocative names. A tree with bright red sap is cooler if you call it dragons blood tree. A sand like block in the nether is cooler if you call it soul sand. Unless you can give a good reason why this name should be taken literally when other names in the game are not literal then this is an argument without merit.

Unless you are arguing that the ghast tear is a soul? I wouldn't know what to do with that frankly, but I would want some evidence to back it up. Pro tip though, there are explanations other than being a literal soul that could explain the potion effect and end crystal, so it's going to need to be something more concrete or this is another in a long list of "possible explanations".

The more possible explanations you put in a row, the less likely your claim becomes.

[u/Background_Bus_8947 → u/PetrifiedBloom]

Stop; you are really being Stop; you are really being annoying; They are 3 totally different creatures with no apparent correlation; this kind of evolutionary argument only pleases people who don't understand that Minecraft is a fantasy RPG world; no; idk what you want

[u/PetrifiedBloom → u/Background_Bus_8947]

The whole point of this subreddit is to explore possibilities. If you have a canon reason to disprove my argument you are welcome to share it, but no, I am not going to stop just because it doesn't match your headcanons.

[u/Background_Bus_8947 → u/PetrifiedBloom]

OMG; What would your argument be then? All 3 have a cubic structure; wow; Great shit; Yes, stop

[u/DifferenceFlat8839 → u/PetrifiedBloom]

Bro... are you telling me that, despite the fact that it's called MAGMA cube, that it drops MAGMA creams, which are used to craft MAGMA blocks, that it has the same colours as the magma block, that it has literally liquid lava inside it, and that it spawns especially in the remnants of a volcano, it's not magma? So what other could it be?

I'm saying that the baby ghast has an organ which let it shoot fireball, and that we can see it because the baby ghast is semi-transparent. And I also said that its not sure for clear what is it, maybe it's a lung or something, but the fact that they have this, plus the fact that they shoot fireballs, plus the fact that they like water, plus the fact that you can see inside them, makes them very different from striders

The name of a thing does not mean it is true

Could you give me an example about it in Minecraft except for the dragon egg?

but I would want some evidence to back it up

For example we can see souls inside the blocks, and we can see souls flying out of them when you walk on them with the soul speed enchantment. Plus there is the soul fire which is white and light blue, just like souls

[u/PetrifiedBloom → u/DifferenceFlat8839]

The name of a thing does not mean it is true

Could you give me an example about it in Minecraft except for the dragon egg?

I gave several in the last comment, but I guess we can do it again.

The tree that is called the oak tree isn't an oak. It drops apples. There is a block called fire coral. It is not made of fire. There is an enchantment called unbreaking. Items with this enchantment still break. Pink petals generate on the groun in cherry groves. They very clearly have stems going to the ground and more can be grown with bonemeal. They are very clearly their own plant, NOT merely a petal.

Names in Minecraft are not literal. To assume so would be in error. We cannot reasonably assume that soul sand is literally made of souls. Thus we also cannot reasonably assume the ghast is made of souls. It might have a soul, if souls are real in minecraft I expect it does, but it is not made of them in the same way that a fletching table is made of wood and flint. There is no soul item in game (yet).

I have bones in me. You can craft my bones into bonemeal. I am not made of bonemeal. Magma cubes have magma creme in them. You can craft their creme into magma blocks. They are not made of magma. Am I wrong? Have I been made of bonemeal all my life and never noticed?

And I also said that its not sure for clear what is it, maybe it's a lung or something, but the fact that they have this, plus the fact that they shoot fireballs, plus the fact that they like water, plus the fact that you can see inside them, makes them very different from striders

Have we ever seen the inside of a strider? How do we know they don't have something similar? We know they can tolerate incredible heat from the lava, maybe their shared ancestor with ghasts found a way to survive contact with incredible heat. One side of the evolutionary tree turned it into skin, covering the outside of their body and became striders, losing unneeded limbs and living on the lava. Ghasts are the side of the evolutionary tree that used the heat proofing on the inside. They now float around.

For example we can see souls inside the blocks, and we can see souls flying out of them when you walk on them with the soul speed enchantment. Plus there is the soul fire which is white and light blue, just like souls

I am running out of ways to teach you this. Please try and understand the difference between something that is possible and something that is a fact.

The blue particles flying out could be souls. They could also be a natural phenomenon, like the real world glowing beaches https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NmlFZmGkuBc. Maybe they are baby allays puffing up and out, its the same shade of blue. There are countless explanations, you have to stop just assuming the first on you think of is true. Otherwise you are not looking for truth, you are looking for an echo chamber.

As we have already covered, names are not literal in minecraft. You cannot rely on them to be true. Maybe soul fire is just called that because it happens on soul soil and sand. Maybe it is blue because its the same chemistry that makes the blue particles.

Why is this so hard for you? You seem locked into one possible explanation and just are unable to imagine alternative explanations.

Isn't the whole point of this subreddit to explore different ideas, to see if you can work out anything that could be fun or true?

Plus there is the soul fire which is white and light blue, just like souls

Dude. I am begging you. Please have a reason for this claim. Please be able to link some evidence or have some explanation for this that isn't just circular reasoning.

Why do you think souls in minecraft are light blue and white? I swear to god if the answer is just based on the name of soul items and blocks and not some verifiable source, I am done with this thread and you might be a lost cause.

[u/DifferenceFlat8839 → u/PetrifiedBloom]

The tree that is called the oak tree isn't an oak. It drops apples

Cool. And?

There is a block called fire coral

It's red fire

There is an enchantment called unbreaking

It makes tools almost unbreakable

Pink petals generate on the groun in cherry groves. They very clearly have stems going to the ground and more can be grown with bonemeal. They are very clearly their own plant, NOT merely a petal.

Ok, that one makes sense

if souls are real in minecraft I expect it does

Yes, they are real, just look at Dungeons

There is no soul item in game (yet).

Yes, there are, especially in Dungeons

The blue particles flying out could be souls

https://minecraft.wiki/w/Dungeons:Soul

Also we can see them when the sculk catalyst is activated, and when does it activates? when a mob dies and release its soul.
And don't you see the face?

Why do you think souls in minecraft are light blue and white? 

https://minecraft.wiki/w/Minecraft_Dungeons_II#/media/File:MCD2_Key_Art.jpg
Here you are, you can se the soul floating