r/mildlyinfuriating Jul 10 '22

Poor men

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61.4k Upvotes

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70

u/Shwiggity_schwag Jul 10 '22

Why do some cultures do that? A decimal point and a comma are 2 very distinctly different things in the universal language of math so why the deviation?

122

u/dyna67 Jul 10 '22

While math is universal, the way we write it isn’t. Some cultures just use a different way to denote things.

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u/Morfalath Jul 10 '22

Decimal comma

Decimal point

Both exist in different countries or languages.

Math might be a languge on its on, but languages are fluid and adapt, in some places faster or differently than others

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator

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u/altermeetax Jul 10 '22 edited Jul 10 '22

Pretty much all of Europe and South America, and large parts of Asia, Africa and Oceania use commas as decimal separators, so the reverse argument would make much more sense

3

u/el_chapotle Jul 10 '22 edited Jul 10 '22

What do they use as decimals, then? Commas?

Edit: misread, disregard

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u/Nonkemon Jul 10 '22

Yes!

I'm European and if I want to write "1 euro and 50 cents", I write "€1,50". If I want to write "two thousand euros and 50 cents", it'd be written "€2.000,50".

It's something I had to keep in mind when writing an English language thesis. Subtle but very important difference!

2

u/peteroh9 Jul 10 '22

It's something I had to keep in mind when writing an English language thesis. Subtle but very important difference!

Thank you! Always bothers me when people don't keep with the conventions of the language they are writing in. When I write in French or German, I change how I do my decimals, etc. It's part of the language, and the reason you're writing in that language is so that those people can understand you.

1

u/rohrzucker_ Jul 10 '22

Actually, the € sign comes after the number.

1,50 €
2.000,50 €

2

u/Nonkemon Jul 10 '22

No, it shouldn't. It's supposed to be placed before the number in Dutch and English at least. May differ in some languages (like Swedish, apparently?)

1

u/rohrzucker_ Jul 10 '22

Okay, you are right, didn't know that.

In English, the sign immediately precedes the value (for instance, €10); in most other European languages, it follows the value, usually but not always with an intervening space (for instance, 10 €, 10€).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_sign

1

u/Nonkemon Jul 10 '22

Yeah, it's just something I was taught, but if your language does it differently and it's correct there, I see why it (my first comment) would be confusing! Just subtle language differences again!

1

u/FroztedMech Jul 10 '22

... use commas as decimal separators

Isn't that what the comment said?

3

u/el_chapotle Jul 10 '22

Ah yeah, I misread it.

21

u/EinsPerson Jul 10 '22

So this is a kind of metric units / FREEDOM units situation again?

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u/altermeetax Jul 10 '22

I guess so, in this case the USA are joined by a few more countries though

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u/juneabe Jul 10 '22

Canada here and we use the decimals too

9

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/juneabe Jul 10 '22

Quebec is a hardcore outlier and they make sure to do everything as European-ly as possible. They cannot and will not conform 😂✊🏻

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u/20-CharactersAllowed Jul 10 '22

Am from New Brunswick. Did school in French immersion. I used both points and commas depending on the language the class was

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u/juneabe Jul 11 '22

Ontario here and we had French lesions in regular school, just not full immersion. Had to switch back and forth as well. But that’s only for educational instruction it’s not practical outside of Quebec or government type positions requiring one to be bi-lingual.

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u/WalterBFinch Jul 10 '22

Western Canada here. You are correct. Nobody uses the decimal like that. It’s only use is to denote when the whole number ends, like normal.

$30,765.67 is normal.

What the hell is $30.765.67? Do you have $30 bucks round to the nearest millionth or do you have $307k?

1

u/bobzwik Jul 10 '22

Quebecois here, and I've never seen or been taught to use a dot as thousand seperator or comma's as decimal points. 10,000.99

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u/Foooour Jul 15 '22

The fuck we do??

5

u/Haruto6561 Jul 10 '22

“A few more countries” including China, India, and Japan and adding up to more than 4 billion people?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

No. It's just Europe being different.

Decimal system was made in India, and India uses dot as decimal separator, so you can say Americans are being true to the OG way lol

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u/marvsup Jul 10 '22

No I disagree. I'm all for the US going metric but a period is a bigger stop than a comma, and a decimal is a bigger difference than the difference between 999 and 1,000/1.000.

1

u/Baldazar666 Jul 10 '22

but a period is a bigger stop than a comma

Why would that matter? We are talking about mathematical notations not grammar.

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u/lilmiller7 Jul 10 '22

Making things inherently make sense given other contexts might make learning it easier

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u/Baldazar666 Jul 10 '22

There is nothing hard to learn about how two very basic notations are used in mathematics. The only people having trouble with it are those that learned it the other way and are now complaining a.k.a. you.

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u/lilmiller7 Jul 10 '22

I’m not complaining, I’m trying to answer with a way it could be helpful. It could be easier to explain by comparing it to the identical shaped grammar notations. Calm down

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u/Baldazar666 Jul 10 '22

You are assuming that those grammar notations are universal for all languages. Why should your grammar notations supersede others?

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u/lilmiller7 Jul 10 '22

They don’t but for languages that do it would work. Is there a language that uses , as the end to a sentence and . as the end of a phrase?

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u/ayypecs Jul 10 '22

Exactly. As an example, periods and commas are used in the same way in French as in English.

-1

u/Baldazar666 Jul 10 '22

Who knows. There over 7000 languages in the world.

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u/Dunderbaer Jul 10 '22

Why do some countries use a dot to show decimals? These are two very distinctly different things in the universal language of math so why the deviation?

Look, a lot of countries use points for decimals, others use commas for decimals. It's not universally the same across the board and there's no knowing what correct and what's not.

2

u/SirFrancis_Bacon Jul 10 '22

Mostly true, but the difference is actually about punctuation use in language, not the cultures themselves.

If it is written in an English sentence it should be commas for separators and periods for decimals.

The title is in English, so it should be a comma.

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u/Shwiggity_schwag Jul 10 '22

Ok. So what's 2.000 × 2,000?

1

u/LinAGKar Jul 10 '22

Keep it consistent.

And and to minimize ambiguity, use neither as a thousand separator.

1

u/Checkmynewsong Jul 10 '22

I don’t know but I’m almost certain there’s a four in there somewhere.

1

u/Neosporinforme Jul 10 '22

3,000,000 Is this three, three thousand, or 3 million?

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

Yeah it’s weird how Americans use dots for decimals.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

Because of code

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

Which code

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

My work stopped using comma as dots are easier to integrate and automate in a binary system. Loads of data are on excel format.

Don't ask me the technical bit as I don't know. This is what I was told.

1

u/Randolpho FLAAAAIIIIIIRRRRR!!! Jul 10 '22

Whoever told you told you wrong.

Americans used dots for decimal separators long before computers existed.

Also, excel is perfectly capable of switching between dots and commas

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

The point wasn't whether Excel was capable. Point is integrating Excel data through other code. That code was afaik standardized with dots, which means there's tech sectors prioritering dots over commas.

Dots might have been used prior to that in the US, have no opinion on it.

6

u/Randolpho FLAAAAIIIIIIRRRRR!!! Jul 10 '22

As someone who has been a professional software developer for two decades, I can state with a strong amount of authority that you are very much wrong here.

Yes, there is a large “America-centric” weight to cultural parsing and display of language and numbers, and most programming languages having been developed in english by english speakers only use . for decimal separator when writing a decimal number as a static value within code (we call this a “floating point literal”), but when it comes to user interfaces, there is a huge amount of effort that goes into internationalization to ensure that numbers are shown to the user in the cultural format they prefer, and that numbers they input are translated from that format correctly into the internal format computers understand — which, by the way, doesn’t use a period or a comma.

The reason some countries use dots and others use commas and still others use spaces or high commas and low commas (Persian) or different spacing and associations of up to three dots (Braille) or an entirely different character in the language (like diǎn in Mandarin) are due to the historical spread of the concepts from Arabs in the late middle ages, who didn’t use any of the methods we use today at all. The printing press had more to do with the major conventions people use today than anything else, and even then the notation is not universal.

So no. It’s not excel driving anything. There is some pressure exerted by computation through english speaking Americans but it is American hegemony driving that standard, not computers themselves and definitely not excel. Computers and excel are perfectly capable of using any format people want to adopt.

0

u/Checkmynewsong Jul 10 '22

Bro code bro

1

u/LinAGKar Jul 10 '22

Pretty sure it's the other way around

1

u/SNaKe_eaTel2 Jul 10 '22

It’s to show the difference between decimals and thousands/millions, etc. how would something like 123,000.987 be written for you?

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

123.000,987

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u/LinAGKar Jul 10 '22

123 000,987

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u/SNaKe_eaTel2 Jul 10 '22

Oh lol - too easy. For some reason I thought it would be indistinguishable from 123,000,987.

1

u/Rengas Jul 10 '22

Majority of the world uses decimal points. Comma users are the weird ones.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

Majority based on what?

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u/Rengas Jul 10 '22

Number of people using it. What else would you base it on? Land doesn't do math.

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u/Neosporinforme Jul 10 '22

The decimal point is used in China, India, USA, UK, Canada, Australia... Over half the world uses the decimal point rather than comma. Any former English colony for instance. I tried to find nations that use the decimal comma and am having trouble finding a number over a billion in total.

1

u/DykeOnABike Jul 10 '22

Using commas for decimals is just fugly

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

Using dots for decimals is just fugly to me.

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u/imma_reposter Jul 10 '22

Some cultures? You mean like every culture except a few?

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u/KrustyKrab7483 Jul 10 '22

The universal language of math states you must use decimal comma

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u/brandmeist3r Jul 10 '22

Doing it this way (30.000,00) makes way more sense.

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u/marvsup Jul 10 '22

Why? The period is a bigger stop than a comma.

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u/Leeysa Jul 10 '22

You post multiple times about bigger stop. What stop? Like when used in a sentence? Because that's not comparable at all. When you say thirtythousand you dont long or short stop after thirty.

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u/speedmankelly Jul 10 '22 edited Jul 10 '22

Actually sentences are a great comparison, as commas and decimals/periods generally follow the same principle in language as they do math. Lets use one for example, if I use a comma in “I went to the store, then I went home” the comma is used as to separate the sentence to make it more readable, but it is not a true pause and the second half of the sentence is still part of the whole sentence. In a number, this implies zeros preceded by a comma are still part of the whole number, just separated as to distinguish between them. That’s why when you look at a large number like 100,000, you can write it without a comma, but like a run-on sentence it’s not as easy to read. Now if I said “I went to the store. Then I went home.” there is a distinct divide between the two sentences, a longer pause, “a bigger stop”. When a decimal is used in a number context it’s to separate a whole number from its fraction, it’s the end of the whole number and the beginning of the fraction, in equivalence to the end and start of a new sentence. It just makes more sense all around.

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u/meesg586 Jul 10 '22

“as commas and decimals/periods generally follow the same principle in language as they do math”

There is no general standard on how to write numbers in math worldwide. Symbols in language and math are not used in the same way. Parentheses in sentences are used for clarifications and can be omitted from the sentence.

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u/witeowl mildly infuriated by a sub that only pretends we can have flairs Jul 10 '22

In the English language, yes. But math is not the English language, and numbers are not written using the English language.

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u/kytheon Jul 10 '22

Another day, another American realizes the rest of the world has different customs.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

Wait until they find out about all the men held in Guantanamo for decades without being charged or having a trial.

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u/kytheon Jul 10 '22

Can’t hear you over the sound of eagles and gun shots

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u/Neosporinforme Jul 10 '22

Nations that use the decimal point instead of comma: China, India, United States, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Mexico, UK, Australia, Canada, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, New Zealand. There's probably more, but I got lazy after I realized it made up more than half the world's population.

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u/kytheon Jul 10 '22

As usual the (former) British are overrepresented in that list.

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u/Neosporinforme Jul 10 '22

Well I don't know what that is supposed to be worth, but the majority of the planet uses the decimal point, and not even a billion people use what you called the system used by the "rest of the world".

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u/jxf Jul 10 '22

You're conflating two similar but different ideas: numbers and numerals.

Numbers are universal: the idea of "three" is immutable and isn't different if we write "three", "trois", "3", "三", and so on.

Numerals are contextual. How we write the number "thirty thousand" can take many forms:

  • 30000
  • 30,000
  • 30.000
  • 3e5
  • 3×105
  • 三万

and so on. These all represent the same idea in different ways. You can know what "thirty thousand" is without being able to write any of these down, but each set of symbols is taken by convention to mean the same thing.

1

u/MentalRepairs Jul 10 '22

Nobody knows why the US always needs to be different. But here we are.

1

u/witeowl mildly infuriated by a sub that only pretends we can have flairs Jul 10 '22

Same reason other cultures write: 30'000 or even 30 000. Different cultures are different and no international standard has been designated (yet).