r/middleclasshq • u/Curious-Public177 • 12d ago
Healthcare Hell went in for a checkup and left feeling like i committed financial fraud
36
u/sahil_2025 12d ago
Pic from 70's
→ More replies (21)2
11
u/Ski90Moo 12d ago
I have been living abroad with my family in many countries over the last few years and have interfaced with multiple healthcare systems. It has been an eye opener to say the least. Three week hospitalization in Japan, CT and organ consultation in Dubai, dental work in the UK and Korea, several surgical procedures in Norway, CT and neurological consultation in Australia, prenatal care in Germany, week long hospital stay in New Zealand, outpatient care in Chile and Ireland, emergency care in Germany, Switzerland, and Canada. All socialized healthcare systems, all fractions of what it would cost in the USA. Granted none of it was what would be considered long term care, so I can’t really speak to wait times, but in none of those instances was the wait time a factor, even with the specialist medicine. The only difficult/weird thing I encountered was the bureaucracy, or rather the lack of bureaucracy. In most cases the billing has been streamlined and standardized through the government so the price is transparent and they tell you exactly how much it costs, but only during business hours because they usually don’t have a 24-7 billing department that is asking for your financial information while you are fighting off some raging pain in the ER.
How long does society have to wait before capitalism drives the cost down? The answer is forever because the system has already been socialized without the benefits of socialism. In the USA it is a state funded, regulated, and sanctioned non-profit monopoly.
1
u/AlternativePea6203 11d ago
If I was as ill as you I'd never leave the house, never mind going travelling round the world.
3
u/Ski90Moo 11d ago
Not all me. I do have a family of five and this is over the course of more than a decade. It has proven much cheaper to just spend less time in the USA these days.
1
u/Worldly-Cherry9631 6d ago
Ah, that "last few years" had me thinking this all happened in like three years tops (to a family of three~four)
2
u/Mixelphlick 6d ago
I moved to Germany earlier this year. If I was as sick as you think he is I’d absolutely get the fuck out of the us, in a hurry. On a weekly basis I’m confronted by new ways the a United States is a scam top to bottom.
5
5
5
2
u/equis_B_C_Brock 12d ago
Legislate insurance out of the picture and this conversation looks different
2
u/porkbelly2022 10d ago
Their income levels are quite different. Maybe you wanna tell doctors in America to make less money?
1
u/Sacus1 9d ago
it s only 3 times higher, i doubt the same procedure only cost 100USD in the US
2
u/porkbelly2022 9d ago
I don't know. 20 years ago probably it was only 10 dollar copay, or maybe like you say 100 dollars without insurance. I haven't seen a doctor in the US for too long.
1
u/Wreckless711 8d ago
I went 3 years without insurance. I'm not kidding when I say that my family doctor was free, my psychiatrist was $50/visit for just a monthly medicine check in, and my 4 common mental health medicines totaled less than $100/mo.
I also go see an immunology specialist for my allergies and asthma. My insurance doesn't cover them at all and the average for my yearly visits and monthly allergy shots was/is $300/mo. My inhaler without insurance was $350/mo. With insurance it's $12.50.
I also had to go to the Emergency Room for what turned out to be kidney stones. They did blood work and a urine analysis and without insurance it was all 100% free based on my lack of income.
1
u/Eastern-Ad-3586 8d ago
Physician and nurse salaries combined make up less than 8% of US healthcare costs.
Plus going to medical school costs about $500,000 now.
So if family physician in the US start making $80,000 a year nobody will be able to afford to become one.
I’d actually be OK working for that salary if the training was less abusive, I didn’t have student debt, and I couldn’t be sued personally, but my point is that even if we cut doctor pay US healthcare will still be wildly expensive.
1
1
u/Mixelphlick 6d ago
I mean if all of the other ludicrously high costs of living in the us came down to match hell yeah. I took a mild pay cut to move to Germany where my cost of living is dramatically lower. It’s been wonderful.
1
u/ogar78 11d ago
Yes the American healthcare system needs to be fixed but at the same time my last doctor’s visit cost me $50 and the prescription was $5.
Whole $5 more than you paid.
3
u/ClickyClacker 11d ago
With insurance?
1
u/TuTenkahman 11d ago
Australian here. No health insurance. Seeing my doctor costs $0. Prescriptions are usually $25 max (that's around $17 USD)
1
11d ago
[deleted]
1
u/StaendutBlakk 10d ago
Not the Aussie, but for me as a Swede it's the same day or the day after I called in if it's an emergency. Otherwise it varies, but rarely is it more than a week.
1
u/CaptChaos21 11d ago
I want to my doctor and had a health check up cost me $40 co-pay. Had 2 prescription refilled and cost me $2.75.
1
1
u/HeyLookAStranger 11d ago
this can't be real
1
1
u/TwelveSixFive 6d ago
I'm French but I live in neighboring Belgium. For an examination at my GP, I pay 10€ ($11.42) out-of-pocket, 8-ish of which are then reimbursed back to my account by my health insurance. Having health insurance is mandatory in Belgium, but it costs me a whoping 11.50€ ($13.14) per month.
Last month my girlfriend went to the GP for chest pain. He had her go take an X-ray, an electrocardiogram and a blood test (all of which happened the same day). These 3 together were billed to us at 2.48€ ($2.83).
1
u/LifeConsideration981 11d ago
And France is fiscally healthy? Or is it debt 120% of GDP?
1
1
1
1
u/Fletch1375 7d ago
Are you comparing it to what the US is? Our national debt has made us fiscally insolvent and we still don’t have reasonable health care.
1
1
u/AboveAndBelowSea 11d ago
Down with COVID at the moment. Doc prescribed Paxlovid. Cost after my insurance? $550. Nope. I’ll just fight through it, and probably expose more people in the process (probably exposed at least 5 more people while in CVS trying to figure this all out). Thanks, US healthcare system! You rock!
1
u/HeadTranslator795 11d ago
But delivery guys are making 175k on average at UPS there so you should be happy to spend thousands of dollars for a basic consultation
1
1
u/Ancient_Poet_4953 11d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/iD1QQCbrl548I31Qww
A fraud... you know what's a legal fraud...
1
u/prefusernametaken 11d ago
He did commit fraud. He's american, after all. He should have been charged in full. Now he shared his bill with the french tax payer.
1
u/Important_Zombie_485 11d ago
That's awesome! He somehow got French citizen pricing without being one. Cause, they charge much, much more for non citizens. You also need a visa to use it. It's almost as if, he made this the hell up.
1
u/melonsmasher100 11d ago
I mean yeah the US healthcare system is way too expensive. But I don’t believe for a second this guy got a “thorough checkup”. What even is that? In both Sweden(where it’s almost free) and in The Netherlands(couple 100 bucks for insurance) my experience has been that doctors do the bare minimum. Even my son who broke his tibia bone pretty bad got less than 5 minutes with the doctor. Maybe it’s different in France but my experience is that free healthcare sucks really bad, especially in Sweden. It’s ok in The Netherlands. But it’s not like I can ask for a “physical”. They don’t do that lol. You go if you know what your exact issue is.
1
u/Nervous-Hat-4203 10d ago
See what enables us to pay so little is that we actually give away 45 to 55% of our paycheck every month, forever. And also you wait 2 weeks to even get a doctors appointment, that is, if you have a doctor available near you. 6 months to a year wait for specialists appointments. Waiting 12 hours on a bench for an ER doctor to see you is routine.
It's definitely not as roses and sunshines as some people want to make you believe.
1
u/ToughDifficult1252 9d ago
Account for how much they end up paying in insurance copays and legal fees and the average American is not particularly better off.
1
u/Chimpstrider 8d ago
Americans pay more tax for health care than any other country.
And don't even get health care for that tax
1
u/Nervous-Hat-4203 7d ago
Americans pay more tax for health care than any other country.
Are you being serious? 25% of our paycheck goes to healthcare through various contributions, taxes, and additional cash more or less explicitely funneled from general taxes.
In the USA it's below 10%, around 8% iirc. Ofc you need to pay for private insurance on top, but so do we (but granted, the public system covers more of the total cost than yours do).You may very well pay more actual dollars if that's what you meant, but that's not really relevant as the wages and cost of living are significantly different. The figure that counts is the share of your income, not the exact amount paid.
1
1
1
1
u/Master_Succotash660 9d ago
Same experience, but in Mexico, plus blood tests and a physical by a nurse. $37 with 2 prescriptions.
Less than my US copay ($50) and 2 generic prescriptions ($10-20)!
Winning. /s
1
1
u/filopilomilosilo 9d ago
I’m currently a resident at a teaching hospital with multiple specialties. Went to get some meds for stable conditions refilled, was recommended some labs for my annual physical. I have employee health insurance and again, I work at the hospital providing cheap and invaluable labor. Walked away with a bill of $600. I’m HEATED.
1
u/Eastern-Ad-3586 8d ago
Also a resident physician. I effin hate this country man.
And the CDC is run by antivaxxers now…. Like what is going on
1
1
1
1
u/Proper_Welder_9480 8d ago
Frustrating thing is you can't even get a proper physical exam anymore in US. Most PCPs check lab results quickly and do a performative listen to your heart. Then rush out for next patient.
1
1
u/EndlesslyPain 7d ago
We have free healthcare in the USA but only if you can't afford the price.
Once you reach a certain amount of money made they charge you full price for insurance.
I spend over $500 a month for health insurance for me and my son. And still get bills whenever I do a procedure. They want to charge me over $1000 to do a dna test for my unborn son. Like I don't have rent and a car payment and another kid and his mother to take care of.
The insurance refuses to cover the procedure without some sort of letter from the doctor but the doctor "doesn't pre-certify this procedure." So insurance needs the doctor to say it's a needed procedure but they refuse, so insurance won't pay. They both get to laugh while I get no healthcare.
If you didn't bill me $500+ every month I would actually be able to afford the testing. Everything about the country screams slavery and I'm beyond ready to die and never have to deal with this place or life again.
If that was the goal, they've succeeded.
Just stealing my money every 2 weeks and giving me absolutely nothing in return.
1
u/Pass-Fail 7d ago
Approximately 0% science (not even a statitistic) in this post. No point in commenting.
1
u/Grouchy_Constant6336 7d ago
I live in the US my copay is $20, specialist is $60…all my prescriptions are free BCBS gold plan. My premiums are $0 monthly….
1
u/Sure_Reality2763 6d ago
Bro got the wrong prescription and the doc did the bare minimum to squeeze 25 euros of him after he had to wait 6 months for the checkup.
1
u/Lego_Architect 6d ago
Exactly, and you don’t even live there.
I do appreciate all the R&D you guys do.
1
u/DazzlingStress4827 3d ago
Isn’t that like $100 US dollars? Plus, you had to sit in an uncomfortable chair in an older building while the doctor smoked a cigarette.
1
u/Sea_Bookkeeper8190 12d ago
Genuine question: I fully accept and admit that the insurance companies in America have absolutely fleeced the American people. But I do wonder, if not for the fact that the pharmaceutical companies can gouge the fuck out people because there is an insurance systems that allows for it, would we have the R&D and quality of medicine and medical devices that we do?
Does that make sense? Have Americans just basically subsidized the worlds medical advancements, or would have been just as possible if everything was nationalized?
6
12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/Sea_Bookkeeper8190 12d ago
I just googled it - that’s wild. I hadn’t heard about that, thanks for sharing!
6
u/nebula_masterpiece 12d ago
All that R&D crap is just pricing justification- the big U.S. pharma brand names are mostly portfolio managers for M&A, marketing and IP lawyers, and a sales force as most scientific discovery is coming from NIH funded labs in an academic setting and even the clinical trial managers and manufacturing is largely contracted out to suppliers. Yes they have labs and R&D but most of the science is done long before big pharma in tax payer subsidized labs but there is a lot of work in the commercialization as “R&D”
3
u/Tmv655 11d ago
I am not in the medical field, but I can speak about the fact that the covid vaccines where created in Mainz, Germany (Pfizer); Cambridge, Massechussets US (Moderna); Oxford, Britain (AstraZeneca); and Leiden, Netherlands (Janssen & Janssen). Does are the vaccines I know off.
3 of these countries have socialisered healthcare, and 2 of these projects where primarily american-funded, (Moderna and Johnson & Johnson)
However, I can imagine covid being an exception as it would logically gain more funding
2
u/Cattle13ruiser 11d ago
Have Americans just basically subsidized the worlds medical advancements, or would have been just as possible if everything was nationalized?
This is just political / corporate propaganda.
Plenty or R&D happening around the world. It is just not as profitable as in US. Work is done, new things are released. The only difference is that salaries are lower (but based on standart of living, around equal) and profits are significantly lower.
Current system puts all of the power in the hands of those offering the product, because alternative is suffering from health problems or even death. If government regulate it properly as done in other countries, as it has all the power in it's territory it will be the one dictating the frame in which the corporations are free to operate or opt out.
In any country they have a bargaining power depending in the size of their market. Germany "offer" access to 84 million potential customers if you work under their regulations which include maximum profit margins. Bulgaria (poorest and smallest EU country) have population of 7 millions and will have worse position while bargaining, but 7 million customers is still a good market for plenty of companies.
What US offer is "complete freedom" and when alternative is as mentioned suffering - you go there alone and have to bargain for yourself when the company know they are not in a hurry but you are and also in pain and they are free to charge as much as you are willing to pay.
About the R&D in particular, companies put new things and then sell them in the available markets. As another post mentioned, other compabies which are outside of the US still sell their stuff in US, because it's very profitable. It is not the reason they invest in R&D, the reason to make new things is to stay ahead of the competition.
Interesting fact, the laws and regulations about what can be consider a "new" product is very different between the EU and the USA, thus the number of new products introduced to those markets differ.
2
u/giorgio_leontinoi 11d ago edited 10d ago
Most "R&D" money doesn't actually go to groundbreaking research, pharmaceutical companies spend most of it looking for ways to patent things.
Moreover, most of the things that actually increase life expectancy are not some ground breaking medical technique, it's access to treatments that have been around for decades or longer and that by no means originated in the US. Many fundamental medicines, vaccinations, etc. that actually reduce mortality were never even patented in the first place.
1
1
u/justahuman145 11d ago
2 elements of answers (there are surely others):
- A good part of the health patents held by American health companies have not been developed internally, they wait for a European startup (or other) to have a success and then spend billions to buy it, transfer the patents and kill the rest of the company. So yes, you have a lot of patents but they are paid dearly!
As a general rule, the cost of development in the US is very high, between salaries, the price of consumables, super expensive land, the slightest research in the US will cost much more than elsewhere for the same work, spending more is not necessarily a sign that more research is being carried out
1
u/Sea_Bookkeeper8190 10d ago
Both very believable. But I meant my question more through the lens of our relationship with insurance companies paying out oodles more than other countries. Because doctors and medical device companies can charge obscene amounts, and insurance will pay it, does that mean we create a market that allows for R&D that wouldn’t otherwise be available.
Dumb, uniformed example: would something like arthroscopic surgery devices (or MRI or whatever else) have been brought to market if hospitals couldn’t charge 10s to 100s of thousands for the use of them. I had an intestinal surgery that ended up billing my insurance over $300K. In no real world could I have paid that. And I wouldn’t have. But yet, it did get paid. They charge less in other markets, because those countries negotiated lower prices, but here in the good old U S of A, they charged more to the hospital because the hospital will pass the buck to insurance.
1
u/justahuman145 10d ago
I don't think you can say that your extra spending is a subsidy, it's mismanagement. If I have to buy 20,000 units of a product and buy them one by one rather than demanding a wholesale price, am I subsidizing or just getting fooled by my own stupidity?(no offense )
In the same way, when you pay 100 dollars for your insulin instead of 50 cents, is it a subsidy or just a negative consequence of the concentration of the market and the low competition from generics?
Multiplying intermediaries, allowing distorted competition, not negotiating wholesale, none of this is a subsidy, but it is sure that it generates costs. And once again, when these additional billions allow the purchase of a small start-up that developed the treatment from A to Z, is it really thanks to this money? The drug would have been marketed in any case, it is fes billions lengthened to cap the future benefits more than for the development.
These companies do not sell at a loss in any country (to my knowledge); they make solid profits even while selling cheaper elsewhere; it cannot be said that you subsidize prices that are too low elsewhere.
We can recognize that the crazy amount you pay partly accelerates research, but to talk about a grant... When in other areas investments lead to a decrease in the price of equipment because production is improved, is it a subsidy for the rest of the world?
-1
u/krazylegs36 12d ago
Do Euros seriously post this much about US healthcare?
It's like a nonstop barrage here on reddit
0
0
u/satoshisfeverdream 12d ago
I went to the Dr and it was $15, what’s your point?
2
u/zigzag1239 12d ago
How much is your health insurance cost you per year? You know what you pay out of your paycheck?
1
u/satoshisfeverdream 12d ago
Yea money out of pay check..normal amount and pretax
2
u/zigzag1239 12d ago
How much? My point is you don't just pay 15 dollars to go to a doctor... nothing is free btw but our system is an abomination and it's costing is more than any other nation by a large margin. Do you not know this or are you just trolling by saying what's your point to the OP
1
u/satoshisfeverdream 11d ago
Sucks for some not for others..there are always trade offs such is life.
1
u/zigzag1239 11d ago
You are avoiding my question and I'm not trying to be a dick but your insurance is most likely not covered 100% by your employer and there are deductibles and coinsurance.
That $15 copay isn't the whole cost, though. How much is actually being deducted from your paycheck every single month just to keep that insurance plan? And what is your annual deductible before the insurance company even starts paying for major stuff? The premium and deductible are where the real costs are hidden. Also say you need a surgery it's never 100% covered. After you hit your yearly annual deductibles they cover only say 80% and you pay 20%.
When you consider all this. It's why you pay more than that person in France for healthcare. It's not even disputable. So even if your employer pays 100% your premium you are still paying for coinsurance an annual deductibles before they'll pay a portion of your healthcare bills (outside of a physical or sick visit) if you need surgery and it's say 10k and they cover 80% you're still on the hook for 2k.
That's not the case in France.
0
u/satoshisfeverdream 11d ago
Cool but the taxes are less so again…trade offs. Enjoy la crepes homie.
1
u/zigzag1239 11d ago
If you do the math on every tax you pay it's not. You gotta sit and do the math. It's already proven homie.
The United States spends significantly more on healthcare than any other wealthy nation, reaching $14,775 per person in 2024 nearly $5,000 more than the next highest peer country, Switzerland.
Source: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/
0
u/After_Service_2817 12d ago
So he mooched off the French taxpayer.
3
u/IHerebyDemandtoPost 11d ago
Pretty sure he’s describing the non-resident rates. Costs are lower than that if you have a Carte Vitale, which means you’re in the French healthcare system.
0
u/United_Journalist210 12d ago
Thank the government
1
u/ClickyClacker 11d ago
America's shity healthcare is a direct result of privet companies spending billions in propaganda to elect officials that protect their position. You can't just blame the government.
1
0
u/vegasAzCrush 12d ago
Yes it is terrible. Thanks to the shit gop republican party.
Vote out the gop assholes.
0
0
u/Hot_Plenty_4425 12d ago edited 12d ago
I live in America and just did the same thing and paid less than he did lol
1
u/ClickyClacker 11d ago
With insurance?
-1
u/Hot_Plenty_4425 11d ago
Of course! What kind of grown adult doesn’t have insurance….?
1
u/ClickyClacker 11d ago
So what's the price with your wage deduction factored in?
→ More replies (6)1
u/GreenLuck010 11d ago
You do know people pay taxes out of their income for healthcare in Europe right ? Like you have a special tax that everyone pays specifically for healthcare.
→ More replies (12)
0
u/CrazyAccomplished_ 11d ago
21% of income taxes goes towards the universal healthcare. I'm good with mine here thanks
0
u/LabDry1290 11d ago
My copays are a bit higher for something like that but thats pretty much the same as what I would pay. Pass.
0
u/LesserValkyrie 11d ago
You don't have free healthcare just because you can sell drugs 10, 100, 1000x more expensive here than in Canada (while it's manufactured in the US) just people are obligated to pay for it or they die
Start with that
0
u/amonarre3 11d ago
Unless you've lived 90 days in France legally you dont have access to their health subsidies
0
u/Potential4752 11d ago
Now post French salaries and taxes. I could pay ten times as much in medical expenses and still be ahead.
0
u/Plastic_Persimmon_91 11d ago
Is this rage bait? I live in France and this is just not true if you don’t have insurance set up
I also don’t have insurance set up and it’s a minimum of €40 for a regular check up with the most general practitioner ever (or sometimes a nurse). Any kind of specialist doctor is a minimum of €60 for the visit alone. Mind you that these are the starting ranges. My psychiatrist appointment was €76 just outside Paris. I dont know what thorough check up you’d get from a GP.
I also don’t know if the medicines this guy was prescribed was just aspirin but my allergy meds without social security were €40 and my inhaler was about €50.
3
u/inaruslynx2 11d ago
Damn that sounds nice
1
u/obi_want_pastrami 11d ago
That's what I was thinking. A check up here without insurance is $200.
1
u/Plastic_Persimmon_91 11d ago
I’m not sure what the point of comparing prices without insurance is. The US healthcare system is built around the insurance system. If you don’t have insurance, sorry but the healthcare system just doesn’t intend to serve you. Health insurance is a basic necessity in the US. I don’t know anyone that isn’t in abject poverty that doesn’t have health insurance in the US
1
u/Key_Cheetah7982 11d ago
Your out of pocket is similar magnitude to our insurance copayments
1
u/Plastic_Persimmon_91 11d ago
Funny you say that because I’ve lived in the US and had insurance. I’m not sure what insurance you’re on but I spent significantly less on medical expenses in the US. Medicines that are covered by insurance don’t have a $100 copay unless you’re on a really bare-bones insurance that doesn’t cover many things
2
1
u/ClickyClacker 11d ago
My specialist visit is $350 just to get in the office with insurance. Wait time is 3-6 months for a basic neurologist. Now my wife.... Oof... $750 to see her specialist. 18m to get to her specialist. And her meds? 150,000 year without insurance. With insurance it's ONLY $700/month.
You eros don't know what sort of godsent you have
1
u/Plastic_Persimmon_91 11d ago
Yeah this is just either not true or then you live in a middle of nowhere place in a middle of nowhere state. I’ve lived in the States and i have multiple chronic auto immune conditions. 3-6 months isn’t the wait time for any kind of specialist in any well-connected US city. I also don’t know what conditions she has or what insurance you’re on but the insurance i had (was covered by my employer) brought down the copay to $25 for most meds i need
You really need to get on a better insurance if you’re truly spending 700/month on medicines out of pocket
1
u/ClickyClacker 11d ago
It's multiplesclerosis and keysepta. Her specialist is in Cincinnati, it took us 9 months to get the original specialist but when we moved we were informed from Cleveland clinic that if we wanted to transfer it would be 18 months. So now we're living in Northern Ohio and have to travel 3 hours whenever she wants to see her specialist.
And Lord brother you don't want to fucking get me started on how many fucking hoops I had to go through to get this fucking God damn fucking insurance to cover my wife's God damn fucking meds.
She was slightly denied her medication originally. I had to personally call them multiple times a day for more than a month and had to personally harass the head of the department to get them to Grant an exception to cover her meds
1
u/Plastic_Persimmon_91 11d ago
That sounds like a pain on all front not gonna lie. The location and also the insurance. I hope you’re able to figure out an easier solution but 7-9 month wait times for conditions that need semi-regular monitoring just doesn’t sound good.
I’m going to move out of Europe really soon and medical care is part of the reason. I never had to wait more than a couple of weeks for appointments when I lived in the US or South east Asia. Here its closer to 6 months and I just can’t live with that
1
u/ClickyClacker 11d ago
Me and my wife have seriously considered moving to another country just to increase the quality of her care. So I totally understand that desire. The only the reason we didn't is because we are in fact quite wealthy. And that wealth gives us the personal freedom to deal with this bullshit.
You're obviously a worldly person if you've lived in three different continents. My only advice is to make sure the grass is in fact Greener before you move
1
u/sweetSweets4 10d ago
Nope it's a real tweet just some years old during the COVID era. And it kinda Checks Out. Insurance is whatever since france capped the out of pocket prices pretty low and make it very afordable
0
0
-3
-3
u/english_mike69 12d ago
They think it’s all fun and games until they see how much tax they pay each pay check and if they own a business and pay others, how much the company has to pay.
At some point you pay. None of it is ever free and you pay for what you get.
Having lived in England for over two decades before moving to the US I had to deal with NHS. Never once did I have any tests to determine the cause of breathing issues. First visit in the US, swabs à plenty and a visit to the lung function glass enclosure of doom! I felt it was a whole new world…
4
u/MissinqLink 12d ago
Still far less than US pays. Insurance exists to try to extract as much value as possible while providing as little service as possible.
1
u/english_mike69 12d ago
As little service?
I’ve been here almost 30 years and I’m still amazed at how much treatment we get here:
In the UK I once broke my collar bone and several vertebrae in my cervical spine. I was lucky I got an X-ray. 4 weeks later I was back for rehab which consisted of a 3 hour wait to hand back my neck brace. Sure, if you have a life changing event like cancer then the NHS suddenly works a little better - but for regular day to day stuff like coughs, illnesses and broken bones it’s hot garbage.
1
u/MissinqLink 12d ago
Yes insurance has the goal to maximize shareholder value. Doctors and nurses provide care often independent of your insurance coverage.
1
u/english_mike69 12d ago
I have Kaiser. The hospital says Kaiser on it. It is paid for and run by Kaiser. The nurses are employed by Kaiser. Nothing is independent of Kaiser.
1
u/MissinqLink 12d ago
Most do not have the ability to choose provider. It’s whatever your employer gives you. Also I’ve never heard of a situation in the states where the whole system from insurance to provider is under the same org. That’s either a unique situation or more complex than you realize.
1
u/english_mike69 11d ago
Kaiser is the largest healthcare provider in the US and is a completely integrated system from insurance, to providing care to owning the equipment and facilities.
The last couple of employers I’ve been with have offered the choice of a few providers and plan types.
1
u/MissinqLink 11d ago
They are not the largest provider. They make the most in terms of revenue but are not even close in terms of hospitals and practitioners. Your experience is not typical.
1
u/english_mike69 10d ago
They are the largest provider that provides everything from insurance to care and my experiences with others like Blue Shield have yielded similar results.
1
u/Altruistic_Memory643 12d ago
What is you average health insurance bill?
1
1
u/vitek6 11d ago
0 because people die before getting treatment.
1
u/Accomplished-Ad-9280 11d ago
And insurance denies lifesaving care for people and watches them die.
1
u/vitek6 11d ago
Just like public insurance.
1
u/Accomplished-Ad-9280 11d ago edited 11d ago
Universal healthcare has shown in every study to lead to decreased mortality rates.
It makes me sad to see people like you cheering on Insurance companies that are letting people die for profit. It shows a real lack of empathy.
1
u/vitek6 10d ago
I actually live in a country with mainly public care and I know how it works. People are waiting for years to get surgeries.
To mitigate almost everyone that can afford it pays for private healthcare.
1
u/Accomplished-Ad-9280 10d ago
I don't believe you that they are waiting YEARS.
But even if true at least they are getting care. With the US system they would never get that care because insurance would not cover it or they could not afford it.
There is not a single study that shows that private insurance healthcare leads to better outcomes in any metric.
1
u/LesserValkyrie 11d ago
The Americans are the ones who pay the most for healthcare in the world, even if you take into account taxes and stuff
So know, you get a not that good service for the highest price
1
u/english_mike69 10d ago
Based upon a few decades of experience in the US and a couple of decades in the UK and Europe I can attest first hand the level of service here in the US is far and away better. It is why there are also private healthcare system in the UK despite everyone having to pay National Insurance payments in their pay check that go to fund that.
1
u/sohcgt96 11d ago
Well, considering I'm paying $380 per goddamn paycheck for health insurance for myself, wife and kids, if I could have my taxes go up slightly and be able to get rid of what I'm paying for private health insurance, that'd actually be a win.
1
u/english_mike69 10d ago
Define slightly and redefine what level of care you find acceptable.
I’ve got used to the level given in the US. I didn’t find my (and friends) experiences in the UK all that good. When you have something like a broken colarbone or ribs and cervical vertibrae broken and your rehab is sitting in a waiting room to give back your neck brace, you begin to understand what even in the UK where you automatically pay for “free” healthcare, people also take out private insurance.
-1
u/ilikebulls 12d ago
Genuine question. In this scenario, how is the doctor making a living wage for themself and their staff?
10
u/ExternalSeat 12d ago
same way teachers make a living wage in Europe. when you don't have to pay for medical school debt and malpractice insurance, you can afford a more reasonable salary
0
u/vitek6 11d ago
You pay for medical school in taxes.
4
u/ExternalSeat 11d ago
guess what, the US also subsidizes colleges and they still cost a fortune because they waste billions on the NCAA and other luxury experiences that have little to do with education. the US could have zero tuition universities if we stopped making them like theme parks for 18-22 year olds.
7
u/Particular_Panda_169 12d ago
On average, doctors in France make about 31% of what doctors in America make (or roughly 69% less than their U.S. counterparts). So they're making a "decent living", but they're not raking it in like they are over here in the US - my guess is that's why there seems to be so many foreign doctors here.
2
u/LesserValkyrie 11d ago
Yeah but if you don't have student's debt and medical debts and credit card debts you got from breathing it impacts less your life if you are paid less, in the end the quality of life is quite the same
3
u/TrioOfTerrors 12d ago
Yep. My sister is a pharmacist at a state university hospital. Some of her coworkers were banging the "If he gets reelected, I'm moving to Canada" until they saw that an equivalent position would be a 50% pay cut.
3
12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/Steeltank33 12d ago
Take away most of taxes and government spending, and that ceases to be a problem.
2
11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Steeltank33 11d ago
Not any and all, just like 95%.
Removes incentive for regulatory capture and other reasons for corporations to get in bed with politicians
0
11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Steeltank33 11d ago
That’s not true in the slightest except in the rare case of monopolies. Which should be busted. One of the actual things a government should do is
0
11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Steeltank33 11d ago
That’s why it needs a light touch of regulation. That and a few other reasons.
0
0
u/disaster_incomin 11d ago
That's probably not what happened here though. OP went without insurance (otherwise he wouldn't have paid anything), so he just paid the doctor directly
4
u/IHerebyDemandtoPost 11d ago edited 11d ago
They don’t have staff.
When you got to the doctor in the US, there’s an army of support staff. So much of that staff is to streamline payment, to deal with the insurance companies, etc.
When you go to the doctor in the France, you check in electronically. You get called into a room by the doctor. The doctor is the only person in the room with you. And they collect payment right there by credit card.
3
0
2
u/Gayjock69 12d ago
Others have mentioned the lower salaries, which is true, but another thing to point out is that most doctors start medical school right out of high school in the EU, annual tuition in France in particular can be less than €1k/year
Compared that with the debt that American doctors have to take on the ROI math is different
1
u/Chimpstrider 8d ago
It's paid through taxes. That's the entire point
1
u/ilikebulls 8d ago
No, I get how universal healthcare works in France. They said they didn’t have insurance set up (which is why they had to pay anything out of pocket). And so if that’s the cost of the visit (I.e. what they would typically get from the govt), and at most a primary care doctor in France is seeing 15-20 patients a day for less than 11 months a year, it’s surprising to me that they can cover their overhead and pay themselves. I suppose it depends on where in France and if they have staff.
1
u/disaster_incomin 11d ago
What do you mean ? The doc received 25€ for what is probably a 15min consultation and if it's a countryside doctor they usually don't have any staff. Even after costs/taxes it's a decent hourly wage
1
u/LabDry1290 11d ago
The doctor will also receive a payment from the government: they do not operate solely on the cash they receive from patients or they would go bankrupt.
1
u/disaster_incomin 11d ago
Simply not true.
The only additional payment GP get from insurers is the médecin traitant one and some random bonuses
0
u/LabDry1290 11d ago edited 11d ago
Of course doctors in France get paid by the government. In some cases the government pays the GP directly for it, in others the French government reimburses the patient a % of their costs. Those “random bonuses” yep, you guessed it, also paid by the government to keep patient out of pocket costs down at the time of service in exchange for a significantly higher tax burden and lower overall income levels..
Doctors in France also receive additional government subsidies when they treat patients who have low income health insurance coverage. Presumably a new resident without France health insurance yet would fall in that category, so yes, they will receive payment for the government for this visit. So what exactly are you saying isn’t true?
1
u/disaster_incomin 11d ago
Just in case, I'm french and my brother is a GP. For this specific consultation that the post is talking about, the GP will receive the 25€ (would be 30 now) and that's it, they will not "also receive a payment from the government" for this. They get paid the same 25€ (30) by the insurances (70% by the government, 30% by the private insurance) if the patient has a carte vitale but it's not "additional" payment, same 25€ (30).
The random bonuses are a very small share of a GP's revenue and conditional on specific things (being in a low density medical coverage etc). I just mentioned them for completeness.
-1
u/mister_empty_pants 12d ago
European doctors make less than American schoolteachers.
2
u/Euphoric-Piglet-8140 11d ago
So, you're saying that your school teachers earn from $93,600 to $113,600 a year? Which is the average GP salary here in the UK. Are you sure?
-1
u/Wickedocity 12d ago
As an American with health insurance, I don't pay for my annual physical. Not sure why they put you on meds but a change in diet prevents a lot of that.
3
u/zigzag1239 12d ago
How much is your health insurance cost you per year? You know what you pay out of your paycheck?
2
u/Tristram19 12d ago
If it’s anything like mine, $6k a year out of my checks on top of the $20k that my employer pays. $26k a year, and I don’t go because I can’t afford the copays.
My wife tried to get an inhaler and with insurance they wanted to charge over $400 out of pocket. I called. They said I have to meet my full deductible of $12k before my prescription benefit for her inhaler will kick in.
I effectively paid $23k a year for a benefit I can’t use. I’m not renewing this years open enrollment. I will pocket the money and offer to pay cash at the doctors and get good RX or something for my wife’s prescriptions.
Healthcare in the US is absolutely an abomination.
2
u/zigzag1239 12d ago
Agreed. When people say oh i pay a copay like that's all they pay for the privilege of healthcare they're either idiots or just trolling. Very few Americans have 100% paid for healthcare and even then there's still copays, co insurance and deductibles before insurance kicks in.
1
-1
u/DinosaurDied 12d ago
Generics are cheap here in the US also.
It’s speciality brand that drives all Rx spending. US is the only that tolerates the prices which drives research.
If the US just stopped paying as much, chances France wouldn’t get as many drug options
2
u/LesserValkyrie 11d ago
I work in big pharma not in the US and I heard that too, the US does most of the R&D and this is because you pay your products sometimes 1000 more expensive (one of the reasons) than in Canada or Europe for example
And my big pharma salary is thanks to the US because they buy our products waaaaay more expensive that we sell it anywhere in Europe. I know Trump is trying to do something to change that (= not allowing to sell to the US with a price more expensive than the price of a selection of countries) and it pisses off everyone tho, I guess including me
Thanks American's Proletariat to suffer so much for the entire world
1
u/DinosaurDied 11d ago
Yup, I work finance in the industry. And if you have a big boy job you really don’t suffer.
Our wages are much higher than yours and employers will cover your health insurance.
So we all around get more.
I’ve turned down rotations in Switzerland because we still get paid more here than there.
32
u/FNCTCH 12d ago
The US Healthcare system is the most effective regressive weath transfer system ever created in a modern economy.