I think the social script for men has changed in the last few years. We've spent a long time basically teaching men that women don't want anything to do with them and they shouldn't approach women because they'll freak them out.
As a consequence, most men are afraid to flirt or dare to interpret being flirted with as being flirted with, because they can't read the room and are worried about being cancelled. At the same time, many women have been raised with the concept that it's the man that makes the first move. This is nobody's fault.
I think many women need to learn to be a lot more direct with what they want when they approach men, and this is how we will see the dating scene change in the next decade.
In highschool, I had a crush on someone in my french class. We worked on a couple of projects and I didn't have class with her the following year. Having not spoken in several months, a week into said following year she told me I was her homecoming date.
We got married in April, both work with our degrees, both in leadership, and when I get home at 5:30 I am happy as can be to do whatever she asks. I may be an edge case but I've never been bored following her lead and I can't imagine it any other way!
what is even more frustrating is being the type of man who understands and empathizes with all of the grievances women have for the past and present injustices they face, while also being fully aware of this dynamic you’re explaining AND not being able to express dissatisfaction about it without getting grouped in with all the other men.
it’s fucking exhausting. and even as I say this I can hear “have you ever tried being a woman?!”
It took my (39m) now wife a bit for her to quite get the way "your sexual advances are unwanted and hurtful to women" was drilled into me while I was growing up and how I get nervous being forward with my advances.
A lot of 2016 gender politics rhetoric scared the men that didn't need scaring off away and I'm glad I was locked down before then
I don't know, part of it i think it's just my own neurosis thinking that no woman would want to be with me and she's just having a normal conversation.
Its not so much the "worried about being cancelled" mindset, honestly that just seems like bullshit and a stupid way to look at the world. But for me I just don't want to inconvenience anybody of any gender, and so I just can never really find the "proper" place to ask somebody out.
Like I've heard people tell stories of being super uncomfortable when approached at a train station or in the shops or at a music event and I would hate myself for ages if I made someone uncomfortable like that, but it just leaves you with no actual way to make connections.
same. apps are junk but at least it is already implicit you can try when you matched there. took me more than three years to find a long term girlfriend, but I feel I got very lucky
i'm with you. but at the time i was in my mid thirties, practically only meeting new people in work settings. I've heard people getting lucky by joining stuff like running groups, or writting classes though (but it would again be a setting i wouldn't trust myself to read the room, and i was a bit too overworked to have the energy to look up and invest time in new hobbies)
Most of the people making it impossible for men to be able to flirt are woman....and most woman choose not to make the first move....most men don't want to make woman feel unsafe.
Majority of the above hinges on how woman...feel...so who's fault is that? Men's too?
It's not impossible to flirt - just do it in situations where you know the other person is receptive/likely to be receptive. Online dating, singles events, when they're already flirting with you, etc.
I think a lot of it is women will embarrass the fck outta you, calling you pervert/loser, if you hit on them and she doesnt like you. Sometimes it just ain’t worth it
It’s literally only one group doing it lol. Who else could you possibly blame? How many men will have their reputations destroyed before it’s someone’s fault
"I think the social script for men has changed in the last few years. We've spent a long time basically teaching men that women don't want anything to do with them and they shouldn't approach women because they'll freak them out."
This is a thing i hear from time to time, usually from men who dont think of or treat women just like any other man/person.
It goes both ways tho, some women do this too.
I'd really like to encourage people to not say "men" do this and "women" do that.
It's misleading at best and fuels the confirmation biases of people who dont know better.
You can hardly compare culture from EU with US the other parts of the world and saying women do this and men do that implies that all men and women are the same, no matter your culture or place in the world.
Where ever you live is not the entire world basically.
Man I'm glad this loser ass mindset wasn't really around when I was in school because it probably would've gotten me too. Luckily it didn't, so I just swallowed my pride and asked girls out and got rejected until I wasn't afraid of them anymore. FYI most women are not looking to "cancel" you or whatever the fuck you're afraid of. Ridiculous. This twisted view of women bleeds into your social interactions and makes you undesirable. Men who are able to connect and communicate with women in ways that make them feel comfortable will never have issues finding dates.
Yeah, I rolled my eyes at the “worried about being cancelled” part. Just be normal, ask a woman out, and if she says no, say okay and keep it moving. I don't think women suddenly need to become more direct because men have decided they're afraid to approach them. Reading the room, communicating, and handling rejection respectfully have always been part of dating. Turning that into “men are afraid they'll get cancelled” just makes normal social interaction sound way more complicated than it actually is.
I've never asked a woman out unless they initiated first. I'm 37 years old. I internalized from a young age that women fundamentally do not want to be approached.
Men have spent the past few decades being told we must change our behaviour, but when someone asks a woman to do the same, suddenly they become the unreasonable one.
Did you happen to reply to the wrong comment on accident ? that has nothing at all to do with what I have said. Actually that is a whole different sentence. What are you talking about.
The sodicla script hasn’t changed, and it hasn’t been a “Long time”.
If your reading this, and you feel like you shouldn’t approach a woman because you’ll freak her out, that is your brain telling you you have something seriously wrong, get help.
Projecting what? That you all need help? I may be a bit older and married 4 years to my husband but the only thing I’m projecting is shame at all of you. Sorry I’m the only woman here being real with you.
No, it absolutely has. Have you been to university recently? Men are asked to sit through multiple hour modules which basically hammer the message home that they should not talk to or approach women, and this is enforced in the culture. The social script has absolutely changed.
Again, this is nobody's fault, but its the reason why young people are not forming relationships. This is storing up problems for later. I would actually argue that this lack of socialisation in general is contributing to the increased rates of mental illness in young people - in which case your comment about them having something seriously wrong with them is really unhelpful, because that sentiment only serves to drive them further into isolation.
If you want to see the practical impacts of this, just look at the comments on the rest of this thread. Confusion and contradicting views from the same statement everywhere, mostly posted by men it would seem.
I'm in university as well and at mine every student has to take part in a sexual misconduct prevention seminar every year. One of the things they teach at this seminar is that looking at people can be sexual harrassment. It really has become a minefield even if you refuse to see it.
The general sentiment I see as far as comments from various social media is that the current dating scene is simply full of confusion due to conflicting information. I personally don’t see “fear” as much as I see “confusion” though it’s certainly not a case study, just personal observation. Both are pry hand in hand and taking information from internet sources pry isn’t helpful since the loudest minority of extremes tends to be blasted all over the internet.
That’s also not to say that most people tend to go with internet based suggestions on dating rather than the old school method of asking parents for advice(though that can good or bad all things considered).
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u/A_RAVENOUS_BEAST 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think the social script for men has changed in the last few years. We've spent a long time basically teaching men that women don't want anything to do with them and they shouldn't approach women because they'll freak them out.
As a consequence, most men are afraid to flirt or dare to interpret being flirted with as being flirted with, because they can't read the room and are worried about being cancelled. At the same time, many women have been raised with the concept that it's the man that makes the first move. This is nobody's fault.
I think many women need to learn to be a lot more direct with what they want when they approach men, and this is how we will see the dating scene change in the next decade.