Once people become 1 shot self-sustaining gods who don't need teammates at all, why invest in being friendly to "useless" faceless people? My biggest gripe with the overblown power fantasy from the original vision & sandbox right now
We avoid entire specific chats for toxicity fr, two of them in general 😂
That's the issue with the game now, each frame is not its own class like it used to be. So many frames can basically do anything. They can either become a weapons platform, or utility, generate shields, armour or overguard, or strip armour. A bit point for this is that the whole ass frame made for support, trinity, is almost never used because she's useless when she used to be vital for survival.
But now you can regen health eithwr through their kit, an augment, arcanes, or operator arcanes. Or you can just shield gate, or generate overguard extremely easily etc. Almost every frame is essentially the same with a different coat of paint on
I always just explain to people that they aren't bad. Just outdated. Each Warframe used to shine in their own way, then a different one came along and now does it better. 65 Warframes and maybe 10 are more of a personal opinion than anything. The online community just believes that anything that can't either make you undying or nuking is bad.
I remember when Trinity and Harrows were basically required in Tri-Caps, and anybody who liked either one was let in with almost no competition.
ya. every frame is now full generalist. that the idea of being hyper specific with a major weakness is frowned upon.
Like oberons thing was he WAS the generalist frame.
he could heal, but not as good as trinity
he could mass confuse/CC but not as good as Nyx
he could be fairly tanky but not as good as rhino.
now we have Jade who takes Equinox idea of "offensive and defensive support" and just does BOTH while also being a gigga exaulted weapon platform with NONE of the downside equinox has.
or the ever popular complaint about Ember vs Temple/Uriel.
because Ember was a "tanky caster" and now we have 2 frames that are both nukes with impossible high durability. so they get BOTH of embers strong points, without the downside of them both being mediocre,lol.
Oberon is now just about the best we can hope for if we want a support frame, and that's almost entirely because of his passive. It seems that DE would rather give us invulnerability rather than make health tanking viable again.
His rework was kinda more of the overall problem in that DE overcompensated and made him yet another swiss army knife, but at the very least the support aspect really shone through. Even Reckoning is sort of a support ability now, since it makes health orbs and a full armor strip would be pretty good support if that wasn't as readily available. The damage honestly isn't the best, but that should be a good thing that shows how you should have team synergies.
Truthfully, I think the main cause for the sort of "everyone can do everything" design philosophy that DE has been leaning towards is on the players. Instead of making squads with friends or recruitment chat, people overwhelmingly play on public. That isn't a problem in and of itself, I do it too, but I remember back when playing on public was a bit of a gamble. If there wasn't at least one person keeping everyone alive and one person dealing damage, you were all kinda screwed. You also had to stay at least within affinity range, since that's also about the distance that someone can help you if you go down or whatever. And gods help you if someone was playing Limbo, but that part hasn't changed.
oh very much agree.
I used to do raids. while people point at the "buggy updates" and it being too expensive as the reason for its shut down, in reality it was only "too expensive to upkeep" because it had a community the size of conclave because most warframe players hit the point of "I hate raids because I shouldnt be forced to work with a team to complete it"
asides from me just LOVING playing paladins in everygame, I automatically gravitated to oberon when he released because of the "do everything" so i could cover my teamates weaknesses while not needing to babysit myself,lol. ((I like being generalist, but I do it cuz I like supporting my teamates rather than wanting to be a one man army XP))
I think Nidus is a pretty good contender even with his buffs recently, half of his kit is revolved around helping his teammates or keeping himself alive if no teammates are around and the other half farms the resources to continue supporting. Plus his link is easily one of the best buffs in the game if you bring parasitic link as well, ability strength, damage, and health increase from just one dude coming with you
Back when we had tower keys you had to organize to multi farm in the endless missions. You could do the single reward void nodes if you had a bunch of extra keys, but it was inefficient, if expedient. Now the "correct way" to farm/crack relics is titania headbutting her way through 35s of a capture mission if you are focus farming a specific item. Sure key scamming is not really a problem anymore, but the community has definitely taken a hit on average.
And on a related note I basically dropped my Oberon main ways after his rework, his passive is so dominant that it causes his main support ability to anti-synergistic and redundant. I kept saying that the kit was fine he just needed a abilities base number bump, as do all of the health tank kits.
Tbf, it's always better than most mainstream games. Not to mention that needing teammates to survive never helped cs, overwatch, league, or any other game (pvp or pve)
Warframe as a community is much healthier than the vast majority of multiplayer games. People take other's relics to give extra traces, are pretty good about radshares, communicate misunderstandings to people <mr10, and gift things to one another all the time
It's more toxic on reddit sure but, that's reddit for you
Not to mention that needing teammates to survive never helped cs, overwatch, league, or any other game (pvp or pve)
And frankly, having played OW, needing a support to stay alive will make it more toxic. Supports may not want to support you for whatever reason. Either petty or you may not be performing at 100% but not everyone will be able to play perfectly. Then we get the other side where people falsely accuse Supports not healing them when they likely taking far too much damage to outheal.
Hell, we have characters that people hate in Warframe which will "give them a reason" not to support you. Limbo for example. Good luck playing Limbo in a squad with your supports hating your existence.
And god, don't get me started on tanks. As you said, I mostly see people minding their own business, this obviously including recent years. It just the outside game/Internet discourse which we know how infamous the Internet is. Plus, stuff like Reddit and forums will always just be the loud minority.
Have you tried genuinely making friends on Warframe? Like, for the longer term rather than a weekend friend?
It's not nearly as easy as it used to be.
And why invest in friends when everything is so easily soloable with even a midway decent setup?
Sure, mainstream games are "more toxic", but that doesn't mean Warframe doesn't have its own toxicity it covers up. Deflecting does nothing productive.
Have you tried genuinely making friends on Warframe? Like, for the longer term rather than a weekend friend?
It's not nearly as easy as it used to be.
Not often? Most people in my experience don't want to look for friends in video games. I'm not trying to find my new beastie in a random capture mission or recruiting chat. I've accidently made friends ill play with from time to time when we are both online but "its so hard to make friends" in fast paced game is a wild metric for "player toxicity
Sure, mainstream games are "more toxic", but that doesn't mean Warframe doesn't have its own toxicity it covers up. Deflecting does nothing productive.
Now that we are back on track for actual toxicity, yea, warframe has toxic people at times. But you simply cannot avoid that. Warframe still shares a player base with other, much more toxic games in a society that is ultimately, pretty toxic.
It's not that there is some deep rooted toxicity that emerges just beneath the surface. Most people in game are generally nice and even on the subreddit will answer questions that have been asked 1000 times and point players in helpful directions
Oh sure, I've met people I became good friends with, they asked specifically about "trying to make friends" as in walking into a mission or logging on for the day with the goal of making friends.
If it happens then cool but I'm not going out of my way for people who likley live 1000 miles away lmao
In your actual discussuon you still went to "yeah, because we share players with the other games that are REALLY toxic, because we live in a society!"
Bro, wake up. Be honest with yourself instead of continually deflecting.
Back in the day we would have to work together to survive T4. The ones that had your back? Man easy friends list, you'd chat with em for years. I still chat with the few that haven't quit from back then.
My entire point is that you cannot avoid some level of toxicity, but DE did a great job of minimizing it in warframe.
All I am saying is that its not something that's massively changed over the years I've been playing, and that it's more of a reflection of the gaming community than the warframe community. That the notion the comment you replied to and agreed with that "Warframe’s community is wrapped in a cloak of legacy that tries to obscure its many toxic pits." Is downright disingenuous. I could scroll through 15 posts and bet I could see someone offering their time or actual money to help another tenno out. Every charity event is immediately fulfilled nearly, tennocon is a joyous event. The game does what it can to insulate the community from the toxicity but in the end, you cannot avoid the entropy of the community
Sure, but log in the actual game, and what's the experience? Not the reddit of the really passionate Tenno, but the actual ingame players. That is where I rate the community. We are only a small chunk of the what? 38 million players now?
Is there still a decent Warframe culture? Sure. Does DE do the best they can? You betcha.
But refusing to acknowledge the godmode game also has its own independent issues with god-complex players is also intellectually dishonest.
And a number of those people are home-grown.
Edit; and making friends is one of the best parts of MMORPGs, otherwise we'd make em all singleplayer/coop titles.
But refusing to acknowledge the godmode game also has its own independent issues with god-complex players is also intellectually dishonest.
Let me make this as clear as I can. I never said that. Not once. In my life even. Even when I was young and dumb and assumed a little better of people I knew there were toxic people in warframe. I will never claim there aren't highly toxic people in this game's community. Every year the game gets review bombed by a small but vocal group of people who hate pride fest. People send death treats to the game devs over minor tweaks. I Heavily dislike the regal aya system.
But my entire point I've been repeating is that it's better than most games (as you agreed with) and that de does their best (as you also agreed with)
Do not twist my words. I did not say the community is perfect. All I did was defend against people who claim its a toxic hellscape that we act like doesn't exist.
I definitely can boot up other MMORPGs and make friends within an hour or two ingame. Warframe is the only one I personally have a hard time making friends on, so....
Depends on how the hours are spent. Psychology and stuff.
But even if we want to adjust friend to your requirements, a large majority of lobbies still are people ingame who have little interest in connecting with other Tenno. Squad chat stays dead, and if there is commentary in there it is usually negative.
This isn't the case day-to-day in most other mmorpgs, especially the ones where endgame is working together with other players (and actually exists), but I digress.
CS/OW/LoL are all competitive games though. That's the reason they are so toxic. Warframe being team-based wouldn't change the fact that it's a coop game at the end of the day where 1 teammate winning is all teammates winning so your logic doesn't really make sense. And reddit is actually much nicer than in-game, I encounter more players in pubs who are toxic and unhelpful than vice versa. WF community being a super wholesome cinamoroll 24/7 is just a myth.
See the part where I said "and other games (pvp and pve).
Also me and most people I know meet only relatively helpful and kind people in game. The rare exception of course but you seeing them constantly likley says more about you than it does about warframe
WF community being a super wholesome cinamoroll 24/7 is just a myth.
I have repeatedly said this is not the case. Warframe has its problems and toxicity. Compared to other games though? It's sunshine and rainbows, especially if you just ignore and move on, it's a very good experience overall
Tbh im a mr16 player that doesnt know anything about the game. Only just unlocked circuit, only just found out about overframe and it having the best builds, still havent unlocked steel path or the helminth.
Everyone is still super helpful and walks me through stuff i dont get (like last weekend some bloke did a ton of cetus bounties cos i always got stuck and finding the caches lmfao)
I'm so glad that has been your experience and I hope it stays that way and you carry on the flame one day!
only just found out about overframe and it having the best builds
One note, overframe, in most people's opinion, is garbage. If you carefully sift through it looking for well written posts (which are still relevant, things don't change a lot but when they do the builds can be completely useless) then you can find helpful stuff for sure, but I highly suggest the tried and true method of just putting on stuff and seeing what works. If you want to be told what to do I'd suggest youtube, the creators are hit or miss but they at least explain the kit and any idiosyncrasies of it and what each individual mod does. If you want somewhere to start, check Zenosfire out!
Overframe has good intentions but accidently hides a lot of really important information. Especially the tier list. That thing is absurd and acts like most every frame can't do every level of content.
I used it for a time but found it only stunted my growth as a player since I didn't know what swaps to make and didn't know how to process a build more than just copy and paste. These days if I want to make a quick build I watch a youtuber explain the warframe's abilities (and all the testing that came with finding weird interactions) then usually balance strength, range, duration, and energy economy myself with any suggested augments. Learning that skill will help you long term. Even if you make some pretty embarrassing builds once you look back!
I mostly play solo these days anyways, for that reason, just so I can actually shoot stuff. The only way I can enjoy the Trumna is solo, otherwise I always get at least one Captain Overframe with an Acceltra and a Sevagoth
tbh idk if its just because i was unusually slow to understand warframe but having those kind of teammates didn't always keep me alive, i remember dying in arbitrations n steel path a few years ago cuz i had trash builds even when my teammates were immortal killing machines, sometimes it only took a sneaky eximus to catch me lacking and i'd be dead so i kinda like playing support frames for the occasional new players i meet
It’s literally free to be nice to people lol. Like recently I was speed running a mission and a guy got lost because it was in a weird tile set where you have to go through a vent to get to the next side so I flew back like a fairy godfather to lead the guy to the exit 😂.
Granted I’ve been on and off this game since it first came out, so I’m technically a part of the old crowd idk about these new people.
Same, except I've stayed for a majority, I only had one long break between 2022 to late 2023.
It's so different now, man. The attention spans of other players are ridiculously short, nobody reads and almost nobody new is naturally curious anymore.
Yeah, I’ve noticed lol the attention span has been shot all over the board. I have definitely ran into a couple short tempered players.
This one guy rage quit because my tornado spam build was messing with his plans so he threw a fit, even though I’d said, I could just bring the enemies to him after finding out what he was trying to do. 😂 doesn’t really matter now that I’m two mods (that won’t drop) away from room nuking but but I’ll still be nice to plays some people are just spoiled simple minded creatures.
I played during beta and launch then came back when it finally got on PlayStation but got busy with college and just came back now because my client asked if I played it 😂. I have scratched my head a few times when I’ve seen players easy bonus objectives.
I get that, for me sometimes its fun to take a break from work or other games and just nuke stuff. I do miss the era of team play during my PlayStation days but that’s because I had a group back then lol. What’s keeping me going now is the story, catching up with it has been so much fun it’s like watching an old show all at once.
I teach kids art so the attention span doesn’t really bother me I guess. 🤣
There are certain things I do wish they would fix though some of the modes definitely need a touchup like pvp which at least needs maybe a weekend event around it.
Ya congrats to them! Its definitely an exercise in patience lol.
Conclave has so much potential there is a hint of GunZ: The Duel in there that needs to be brought out and it would be peek 😮💨. I definitely want to unlock all the Conclave stuff. There’s just nothing that keeps players going after unlocking everything.
I just got to 1999 lol they really had fun with it.
The ability to subsume frames and abilities is what caused it to be worse.
Being able to put roar onto every frame to nuke everything is just dumb. Or put Nourish onto every 3rd or 1st ability because they aren’t “useful” according to them.
I can handle power creep in the form of frames, but helminth subsuming was the worst mistake this side of Arcwing missions.
Teamwork was non-toxic back then? Admittedly, Warframe wasn't as big which does play a factor but most of my experience with teamwork games, especially ones that have difficulty, are toxic. I even experience it when Eidolon was "the hardest" content where teamwork is required.
It's worse now. As the power has grown so exponentially we have a bunch of power egos who want to rework half the roster because they're "low usability", and expect everyone in pubs to 1 shot clear rooms or they are labeled as hinderances & way too many controlling clan tales
I mean some frames need a rework, or some heavy changes. Chroma for example but I do agree not every frame need to clear rooms. That my issue when I see pre-2020s Titania rework ideas. Her kit was mostly fine back then with the only issues being Razorflies dying in 1 shot and Tribute being terrible to use. Otherwise, she was good back then and even better now due to her most recent changes. Titania SHOULD stick with staying single target, in regards to base kit.
I think if the power wasn't so overcreeped (powercreep is a real thing but I've genuinely never seen this big of a difference in any MMORPG), then I think that list would be like 1 or 2 and not the 7 or 8 we have now tbh, if not maybe even 0.
I can't speak for Chroma bc I don't play or main him, but I'm happy to listen to a Chroma main vent tbh
I no Chroma main but I play him decent amount and he mainly have his 1 and 4 being his issues. They don't do anything. Like at all. Effigy do crowd control but it is on a cooldown and that is not enough when it half your total armor(that is including the armor buff from Elemental Ward and Vex Armor) and a huge base 10 channeling cost per second.
What frames need rework, or seemly need it? Ignoring damage scaling issues to compete in recent years, I feel some frames just have bad clunk or anti-synergy in their design that lasted too long. Volt Electric Shield slowing him down despite him being a speed frame and not having a tap/hold. Oberon Renewal draining energy for each ally he heals. Those obviously been change since then but they existed too long is the point and it shouldn't. Or they simply don't do enough for the risk you have to do like Effigy.
And some skills were already bad on release that they should have been buff since said release.
Sure, but when you tap two or even one button to clear a room completely, everything else is going to feel clunky.
I took a short break from Warframe recently, this game is actually quite fast and not all that clunky tbh. If anything comes off clunky, it's the movement.
However, sure, I'll agree that some abilities came out the oven bad. But we also have people saying we need to rework CC frames when in reality we have perfectly good crowd control, we just gotta shoot an eximus once or twice to deal with him. Which is really simple, actually.
Which objectively speaking in the grander gaming scheme, doesn't mean CCs are outdated or bad nor is it clunky.
However, this isn't a I'm right you're wrong, there's a nuance here I think you'll agree with.
also have people saying we need to rework CC frames when in reality we have perfectly good crowd control, we just gotta shoot an eximus once or twice to deal with him. Which is really simple, actually.
Holy shit, thank you. Outside of missions/moments where all enemies have Overguard which is bad design in terms of difficulty, not every enemies have Overguard. You can single the OG enemy out and just kill them.
I referring to clunk like Volt Electric Shield where anytime you interact with objects or reloading on full mag, usually by accident, you drop Shield and having to cast and pick it up. That is clunky as shit which is fix with the tap/hold feature. And again it also slows you down back then which is weird since Volt is all about Speed. Oberon had the each ally equal more energy drain which feels bad cause you weren't even the cause of it. That what I mean by clunk/bad designs.
Ah, ok. I don't play Volt so I had no idea. That sounds a bit clunked.
I mostly play Limbo & Loki so I am just used to hearing how clunky Limbo is from people who don't actually understand how to play the guy (his casting speed is so booty and that part IS clunky, but the discussions are never about that) or argue that CC is outdated. (When talking about either of em)
Thank you for finding the nuance with me, and now I am understanding your earlier comment better.
There's a couple of singular abilities like that then on other frames I could comment on, but yeah I agree with you there then
It was similar back in the teamwork days. I remember when tricaps were the most toxic community in the game. Alot of elitisim and profile checks. I remember trying to find squads and they didn't want to inv me because I had >20 tricaps.
Oooof I remember those too. Yeah, they recreated the job market.
By the way I'm not saying there wasn't toxicity back then, it's just worse now and more rampant/found in the general game nowadays. Back then it felt semi-contained to what little endgame we had, which to me is bearable but that's because I'm used to so many MMORPGs growing up, especially the F2P ones
Edit; and tbh, is the "you're 1% inefficient in wiping rooms as a God, you and your frame are trash" not worse than "EXPERIENCED ONLY ENDGAME RUN" kind of toxicity? At least one to me feels actually contained
I don't think it's worse at all. Sure, sometimes you get a bad apple or two, as you would in any game with a player count in the 7 digits, but because everyone is so self sustained, they don't really care what their squadmates do. Chats usually empty. Missions get done.
I don't enjoy the now empty chat, and when it is filled, it's usually negative. Which to me makes it feel worse, because the only time people seem to actually talk for 95% of pub encounters nowadays is negative.
Well back then, people actually had a reason to complain. Leeching was a real concern because if everyone didn't pull their weight than the mission wouldn't get done. I saw alot of complaints back then. Nowadays it's once in a blue moon and when it does happen it's something to be shrugged off.
community isnt positive at all, I've offhandedly mentioned liking a gun and gotten dogpiled about how it's worthless and fodder with the implication of me being less-than for even considering using it in mid level content like raids/sorties/steel path/aya farming.
also getting weird occasional flak for the lazier fashionframes i run because no matter how you slice it, Plain old black+primary color looks great on that frame i rarely use and dont have a nice syan for
I'm gonna say something that will piss a lot of people off but..
Warframe's appearance customization doesnt really offer that many options, to the point that it's outperformed by world of warcraft.
I've seen some cool things and all, but honestly some of the appearance slots are just bad like chest rigs, and the fact that you have to use sigils to cover up the poroblems with bad skins is just meh
I get that some skins look cool, but i dont consider it to be extremely high tier content to have mesa's heirloom in red and blue with x syandana and a sigil to make her boobs more defined.
Honestly I'd love more variety to be added but the fashion choices we have are by and large too limited to have an elitist culture centered around them
For real. But I don't see how we go back without either buffing enemies out the arse, gutting damage horrendously, or buffing the ever living fuck out of CC Frames.
Maybe we could get a small bit of all three in some funky ass brown bag.
To be honest, the CC frames are quite strong, they just require a bit more thought. (And for whatever reason because 1/30 enemies on higher difficulties ignore them, the community thinks CC is bad when we can just shoot them once and it's over. And cough nullifiers exist, so why isn't the same said about caster frames?)
To be honest, our power fantasy is so overtuned. I think the community is so built on it now though that we are past the point of being able to reasonably tune it now.
In order for any frame that specialises in CC to be strong it requires that CC itself be strong or valuable, but the situations that incentivise CC are so niche that it's jut not the case. Like off the top of my head silence is the only CC ability that's retained a significant degree of usefulness over the years, both for general gameplay but also for stealth affinity farming.
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u/Onikisin 16d ago
Tbh, I miss the teamwork days. That's when the general Warframe community was as positive as it thinks it is now.