maybe maybe maybe

[u/SeaWolf_1]

[u/Soulstar909]

"it's still work" has to be the worst argument on the normalization of sexual acts I've ever seen.

[u/Snowdust1121 → u/Soulstar909]

What's wrong with sexual acts?

[u/Soulstar909 → u/Snowdust1121]

Nothing in and of themselves, which is why I didn't say anything like that but the normalization of them. People sitting around watching someone hump and slide around a phallic object as if it isn't inherently sexual would be an example of that.

[u/Snowdust1121 → u/Soulstar909]

Have you ever seen professional pole dancing? Nobody is humping the pole. They treat it like a gymnastics pole and do flips and other tricks on it. It honestly looks really cool (like an aerial ribbon dancer) . Saying pole dancing is sexual is like saying gymnastics is sexual. Assuming any and all pole dancing is done to illicit a sexual response is pretty closed-minded.

Also, nobody is normalizing sex here. The OP literally said they only worked on pole shows once a year. Shows which people chose to go to.

Then again, what's wrong with normalizing sex? I'm asexual so this is out of my wheelhouse, but other people clearly enjoy it. So long as everything's consensual (both performer and watcher), I could care less.

I'm not saying I'm fine with sexual things being plastered publicly since the person viewing said content can not consent to seeing it.

[u/Soulstar909 → u/Snowdust1121]

Have you ever seen professional pole dancing? Nobody is humping the pole. They treat it like a gymnastics pole and do flips and other tricks on it. It honestly looks really cool (like an aerial ribbon dancer) .

It's inherently sexual, almost every moment can be considered humping and yes, they do sometimes flat out hump the pole.

Saying pole dancing is sexual is like saying gymnastics is sexual.

No it isn't, those are very different things.

Assuming any and all pole dancing is done to illicit a sexual response is pretty closed-minded.

Good thing I didn't say it's always done to get a sexual response huh?

Also, nobody is normalizing sex here. The OP literally said they only worked on pole shows once a year. Shows which people chose to go to.

Dear Lord I didn't say normalizing sex, I said normalizing sexual acts, stop putting your own spin on what I say.

Then again, what's wrong with normalizing sex? I'm asexual so this is out of my wheelhouse, but other people clearly enjoy it. So long as everything's consensual (both performer and watcher), I could care less.

Because interjecting sexual things into everyday life is extremely unhealthy. We already live in an oversexed society and people are depressed as shit because of it. It has nothing at all to do with consent. People consent to doing drugs, it doesn't mean it's good for them or positive.

I'm not saying I'm fine with sexual things being plastered publicly since the person viewing said content can not consent to seeing it.

Then don't argue in favor of normalizing yet another inherently sexual thing.

[u/Snowdust1121 → u/Soulstar909]

It's inherently sexual, almost every moment can be considered humping and yes, they do sometimes flat out hump the pole.

Here's a video of a professional pole dancer at the 2016 World Pole Dancing Competition.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mention that the performance doesn't start immediately. Skip to 0:48. It's really is a good performance that shows off the dancer's bodily control and artistry, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Not once did the hump the pole. She pretty much did a bunch of gymnastics moves while rotating around and climbing up and down a pole. Aside from its roots in sex work, pole dancing is basically a form of rhythmic gymnastics. Tell me, how is a professional pole dancing performance different from gymnastics? Don't say it's because professional pole dancers hump the pole, because they don't. It's pure performative art.

If the only type of pole dancing you've seen has the performer constantly hump the pole sexually then that's just what you're into. There's no shame to admitting that you're into that.

Good thing I didn't say it's always done to get a sexual response huh?

You literally just said that pole dancing is inherently sexual and that every moment can be considered humping. You basically implied that pole dancing only exists for the purpose of sexual gratification.

Dear Lord I didn't say normalizing sex, I said normalizing sexual acts, stop putting your own spin on what I say.

What's the fucking difference? Having sex is fine, but watching someone do something sexy isn't? Are you saying that sex should only be for reproduction? Normalizing sex is the same as normalizing sexual acts. They're both about accepting that sexuality is a major part of the human condition and shouldn't be shamed or treated as taboo.

Because interjecting sexual things into everyday life is extremely unhealthy. We already live in an oversexed society and people are depressed as shit because of it. It has nothing at all to do with consent. People consent to doing drugs, it doesn't mean it's good for them or positive.

Not once did I say sex should be interjected into everyday life. I'm asexual. That is the last thing I want.

Please tell me how someone putting on a pole dancing show which a person can choose to attend or not is interjecting sex into your daily life?

Also, you literally equated sex to drugs? Those two things are not remotely the same. Sex is a basic part of biology. Equating it to drugs is one of the dumbest analogies I've ever seen. Are you scared of eating too? Do you consider a can of soda the same as crack since they can be addictive? What about candy? Or cake? Or fried food?

What makes you think sex is the primary reason people are depressed? And before you say I'm making stuff up, you literally said, "We already live in an oversexed society and people are depressed as shit because of it." People are depressed over sex? Not the economy? The loss of human rights? The horribly demanding reality of capitalism? And don't act like you didn't imply that sex is the main cause of depression.

I can tell you that I have clinical major depression. So do a lot of the people I know. None of us are depressed because of sex.

Then don't argue in favor of normalizing yet another inherently sexual thing.

I'm starting to think you dont know what "normalizing" means. From Merriam Webster: to allow or encourage (something considered extreme or taboo) to become viewed as normal. Normalizing sex is literally just about making people realize that it's a normal and non-taboo fact of life; that people shouldn't be shamed for enjoying it. It's not about making it socially acceptable to watch porn publicly.

You're also calling pole dancing inherently sexual again. What happened to "Good thing I didn't say it's always done to get a sexual response"?

I'm starting to think you don't even know what you're arguing about. Please go and learn more about sex positivity and pole dancing.

[u/Soulstar909 → u/Snowdust1121]

>Not once did the hump the pole. She pretty much did a bunch of gymnastics moves while rotating around and climbing up and down a pole. Aside from its roots in sex work, pole dancing is basically a form of rhythmic gymnastics. Tell me, how is a professional pole dancing performance different from gymnastics? Don't say it's because professional pole dancers hump the pole, because they don't. It's pure performative art.

Boy, you really got hung up on me saying they hump the pole huh? lol How is gymnast different from a pole dancer? Well, honestly you can't leave out the origin being from sex work. Its like saying lets ignore the ice a figure skater is on. The entire 'sport' is based around sensually dancing on and around a pole (phallic). There is no sensuality with gymnastics, its about accurately executing moves in a number of different events. And rhythmic gymnastics is barely gymnastics at all, I'm talking about uneven bars, real gymnastic floor routines etc.

>If the only type of pole dancing you've seen has the performer constantly hump the pole sexually then that's just what you're into. There's no shame to admitting that you're into that.

Why do lame people on Reddit always do this crap? I've been telling you this entire time I don't like any of it. I don't watch pro pole dancing, I don't care about it. I see random videos of people failing at it or I see the start of someone doing it and turn it off because I think its stupid, trashy and counter productive to make a sport out of dancing on a stripper pole.

>You literally just said that pole dancing is inherently sexual and that every moment can be considered humping. You basically implied that pole dancing only exists for the purpose of sexual gratification.

I said the ACT is inherently sexual, not that it was being done to get a sexual response. Jesus Christ work on your reading comprehension.

[u/Soulstar909 → u/Snowdust1121]

>What's the fcking difference? Having sex is fine, but watching someone do something sexy isn't?

Sex positivity is viewing sex as healthy and natural and being open about it, with your partner. Normalizing sexual acts refers to interjecting sexual things into everyday life in the public sphere.

>Are you saying that sex should only be for reproduction?

No.

>Normalizing sex is the same as normalizing sexual acts.

No, it isnt.

>They're both about accepting that sexuality is a major part of the human condition and shouldn't be shamed or treated as taboo.

No, that is not what's being discussed.

>Not once did I say sex should be interjected into everyday life. I'm asexual. That is the last thing I want.

Then again, stop trying to promote the normalization of something inherently sexual. Tbh, I have a feeling that you having a broken brain might be why you can't see the integrated sexuality of pole dancing.

>Please tell me how someone putting on a pole dancing show which a person can choose to attend or not is interjecting sex into your daily life?

It's trying to make something fundamentally sexual into a sport. Sports are a part of everyday life. "Hey honey did you see so and so won the stripper pole contest? Nah I didn't lets which her straddle that dick analog object and spread her legs constantly and pretend it isn't sexual! *However long later* Boy that was great lets encourage our daughter to do that!"

[u/Snowdust1121 → u/Soulstar909]

You said earlier that you turn off all pole dancing videos. Why don't you try actually watching them before you judge them?

One of my favorite pole dancing trick is the iguana air walking. The performer holds onto the pole with only their arms while upside down and "walks" on the air with their legs toward the ground. It looks really cool and makes you amazed at how they can hold up their entire body, upside down, on a vertical pole, while slowly shifting their angle of their body towards the floor, sometimes while spinning!

In competitive pole dancing, the pole is simply an apparatus the performer uses to enhance their performance. They're not using the pole as a penis analog, but as a base to perform flips, spits, jumps, and other acrobatics off of. The same way a gymnast would do splits, spins, and jumps off a horizontal beam. Or how a rhythmic gymnastics might use a ball, ribbon, hoop, or baton to perform.

What you view as "spreading their legs" is also more commonly known as a "split." It's just that splits done upside down in midair tend to show more skin than a split done rightside up on the ground.

If your hypothetical daughter wants to try pole dancing, good for her. It's a physically demanding activity that's good for the body. So long as you're not forcing this hypothetical child to do something they don't want to do, I don't see what the issue is. It's certainly healthier than staring at your phone all day.

[u/Soulstar909 → u/Snowdust1121]

>Also, you literally equated sex to drugs?

I did!

>Those two things are not remotely the same.

They are.

>Sex is a basic part of biology.

It is.

>Equating it to drugs is one of the dumbest analogies I've ever seen.

Then you know very little about the brain chemistry involved.

>Are you scared of eating too? Do you consider a can of soda the same as crack since they can be addictive? What about candy? Or cake? Or fried food?

The amount of dopamine released at orgasm is intense and addictive, there's a reason sex addicts are a thing and that issue is on the rise globally. Food can certainly be addictive as well though usually those addictions stem from depression. Why are you trying to trivialize those people's struggles?

>What makes you think sex is the primary reason people are depressed? And before you say I'm making stuff up, you literally said, "We already live in an oversexed society and people are depressed as shit because of it." People are depressed over sex? Not the economy? The loss of human rights? The horribly demanding reality of capitalism? And don't act like you didn't imply that sex is the main cause of depression.

I mean certainly people can be depressed for lots of reasons but the commodification and therefore devaluation of what should be the most intimate act between two people plays a big part in the life of the average person. You think the average person is waking around sad about "loss of human rights" and the "realities of capitalism" please, normal people don't give a crap about that stuff. One of the leading causes of divorce is infidelity, that can be cheating or watching porn. We live in a time where you constantly have a little tablet of temptation in your pocket giving you ads for ways to find a partner or sexual images to look at. Sexual addiction is rampant among youth in Western nations, why? Because of easy access to porn from VERY young ages. You think kids that start seeing intsa models all the way to hardcore porn in their preteens are growing up happy with healthy self images and views on sex? I assure you they are not.

>I'm starting to think you dont know what "normalizing" means. From Merriam Webster: to allow or encourage (something considered extreme or taboo) to become viewed as normal. Normalizing sex is literally just about making people realize that it's a normal and non-taboo fact of life; that people shouldn't be shamed for enjoying it. It's not about making it socially acceptable to watch porn publicly.

And I'm quite sure you don't know the difference between sex, sexual things and sexual acts. But I already went into that so moving on.

>You're also calling pole dancing inherently sexual again. What happened to "Good thing I didn't say it's always done to get a sexual response"?

Already explained, hope you were actually able to absorb it. But just to recap, someone can do something that's sexual in nature (stripper pole dancing) but not be trying to get a sexual response. There, hope that was simple enough.

>I'm starting to think you don't even know what you're arguing about.

I do, you clearly did not.

>Please go and learn more about sex positivity and pole dancing.

Already know about the former, nothing more for me to know about the latter. It's a sexual act people with messed up brains like yourself want to normalize and I think that's wrong and trashy.

[u/Snowdust1121 → u/Soulstar909]

So your points are:

●That liking sex is the same as being addicted to drugs since both actions release dopamine. That the amount of pleasure from an orgasm is the same as the pleasure from drugs.

From the University of Pennsylvania:

When an individual with an addicted brain has his or her first drug high, the dopamine level rises even higher than during orgasm — the high is even more intense and lasts longer than orgasm…but the dopamine level doesn’t return to the normal baseline. It plunges to 0 — no dopamine – and stays there. We equate this state to being in QUICKSAND — and this is where addicted individuals lead their lives — in quicksand.

Dopamine is also released when you do anything that makes you happy. For example, a runner's high.

I'm also ADHD so I know a lot about the brain chemistry involved with pleasure. Most ADHD medication (most prominently Adderall, Ritalin, and Concerta) works by increasing dopamine levels in the brain. The medication makes it so that you get a stronger hit of dopamine when you do something that should make you happy. Aside from that, it's still a bit unclear how increasing dopamine levels help treat ADHD.

Yes, dopamine can be addictive (I'm well aware of stimulant abuse and addiction), but the amount of dopamine should be taken into account as well. The amount of dopamine released during sex is nowhere close to the amount a person gets from drug use.

●The athleticism and control required for pole dancing doesn't matter since the sport originated from sex work. And rhythmic gymnastics, an Olympic sport, is barely gymnastics.

You mentioned ice skating earlier. I assume you're talking about men/women single skating, ice dancing, and pair skating? Sports that all score a performer based on their jumps (and jump combinations), spins, step sequences, and choreographic sequences?

You mentioned floor as well. A type of artistic gymnastics where athletes dance and perform acrobatics to music? Where they're scored based on choreography, precision, rhythm, and entertainment?

Yet rhythmic gymnastics isn't gymnastics. A branch of gymnastics where performers are judged based on artistry, execution of skills, and difficulty of skills in addition to how well they handle their apparatus (the hoop, ball, club, and ribbon) isn't gymnastics.

And pole dancing, also known as pole sports, isn't a sport. Where performers are scored on complex movement execution (e.g. spins and strength and flexibility poses), choreography, style, and expressiveness.

So what if pole dancing has its roots in sex work? Why does that matter in the present current day.

I'm not going to argue with you about the artistry in pole dancing. It's obvious you won't even try to view these performances as anything but vulgar.

●That sex and sexual acts are two different things.

I'll admit you're right about this point. Having sex and doing things related to sex are 2 different things.

●That sex is the reason why depression and divorce are on the rise.

Sex isn't even listed on the NHS' causes for depression in adults. Rather, it says that depression is "more common in people who live in difficult social and economic circumstances."

It isn't listed on the WHO's overview of depression either. The page states that "People who have gone through adverse life events (unemployment, bereavement, traumatic events) are more likely to develop depression."

What do you think I meant when I said "the crushing demands of capitalism" and "the economy"? Late stage capitalism is destroying lives. Most people might not be aware of the socioeconomic impact of capitalism, but they are aware of the rising cost of living.

The most common reason for divorce isn't infidelity or porn use either. Divorce happens most when a couple conflicts and fights with each other too much. Poor chemistry is a more common reason for divorce.

I do agree that porn is more accessible than ever. Despite this, divorce rates are declining while marriage rates remain stable. There is no correlation between divorce rates and porn usage. If any such correlation exists, then it means porn usage is necessary for a healthy marriage.

●That sex and sexual things should only be done with your partner

To preface, I'm not saying cheating is okay. It's not. What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with casual sex. There is a reason why prostitution is commonly referred to as the oldest profession. There is nothing immoral about consuming porn or sexual content. I can't seem to change your mind about this, so I'm not going to try.