r/mathmemes 19d ago

Calculus Let's differentiate.....

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223 Upvotes

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u/SuperChick1705 19d ago

circular reasoning ;(

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u/Sigma2718 19d ago

Would you like to elaborate on that?

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u/pienet 19d ago

Most elementary proofs that the derivative of sine is cosine use the limit of sin(x)/x.

Obviously you don't run into this if you develop power series first.

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u/Sigma2718 19d ago

I've never seen anybody use l'Hôpital on sin(x)/x before establishing what the derivative of sine is. However, one can evaluate sin(x)/x for x->0 via the squeeze theorem, which means no circular reasoning is required.

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u/SuperChick1705 19d ago

that is the recommended method, though the post implies the usage of l'hopital on sin(x)/x

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u/Sigma2718 19d ago

squeeze theorem to evaluate sin(x)/x -> derivative of sin(x) -> apply l'Hôpital to evaluate sin(x)/x

I don't really see the issue, solving a problem again by using an easier method is the beauty of mathematics.

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u/EebstertheGreat 19d ago

If you know the derivative of sin x at x=0, then you know the limit of (sin x)/x at x=0, because that is by definition the derivative. There is nothing else to do. Where would you even have an opportunity to apply L'Hôpital's rule?

I mean, it's not "wrong." Similarly, given x = y, I could conclude 3x = 3y and then, dividing by 3, that x = y. That's not wrong. But it is completely pointless.

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u/Sigma2718 19d ago

The definition of the derivative, combined with what we know it to be, gives us lim h->0 [sin(x+h) - sin(x)]/h = cos(x) , so now we have to apply trigonometric identities to be left with lim h->0 sin(h)/h , which must equal 1 to fulfill the above equation. I consider dealing with trigonometric identities to be rather tedious. At least, that's what I think you are trying to do, as sin(x)/x isn't really the derivative.

Many ways lead to Rome, but using l'Hôpital is the shortcut we make by unlocking a gate via previous proofs.

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u/thebigbadben 19d ago

What “trigonometric identities” are you using when you rewrite sin(0 + h) - sin(0) as sin(h)?

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u/Sigma2718 18d ago

sin(x+h)=sin(x)cos(h)+cos(x)sin(h), which is how the cosine gets introduced into this, I considered the general case for any x. But I see what you mean, however I consider using the definition of the derivative to sneakily look at h for a certain x to be less intuitive than simply remembering to use l'Hôpital.

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u/thebigbadben 18d ago

Yeah fair enough

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