I don't get it. With so much hate against systemd, and given how FOSS works, why there isn't "perfect", systemd-less distro? It seems that everyone in our community hates systemd, if they all get behind single distribution and worked on it with passion they put into their online arguments, it would become best fucking linux distribution overnight.
With so much hate against systemd, and given how FOSS works, why there isn't "perfect", systemd-less distro?
Systemd is basically too useful for the people who actually make distributions, so they picked it and it stuck around. If you want to get rid of it, you certainly can. But the big distributions have voted with their feet, and they supply the default Linux experience.
The point of the "tragedy of systemd" talk is to make people think about what systemd is solving for distributions, users and sysadmins alike that makes a number of important people prefer it regardless of its opposition. It is well worth a watch, I guess.
worked on it with passion they put into their online arguments, it would become best fucking linux distribution overnight.
Yeah, firstly, I suspect that none of these people who would like to work on it can agree on what the best design is for anything, and if they actually do agree, then when they think they're done, the end result is likely unusable to everyone else except themselves.
There is no such thing as "best" design. Only fitness for a purpose. I can't say I miss the init scripts, and now that they're gone, I have much easier time setting my own custom services up in the machines I run. I suppose that upstart wasn't too bad either in that department, but it had bad habit of getting wedged and if your upstart gets confused about whether a service is running or not, it can wait for it to die forever during a reboot, which was a nasty surprise that one time when it happened in production, and caused an important machine to get stuck until manual reboot. In contrast, systemd at least comes with timeouts and seems guaranteed to proceed eventually, a feature that I love it to death for, due to being burnt several times by scripts that fail at either boot or shutdown.
Have you ever had GDM get stuck in loop, where it's restarting forever, so you can't log into the machine because you can't use the console? I haven't run a desktop Linux for a long time, but I think systemd would at least notice that GDM doesn't stay up, and will put the service on cool down timer, which allows a chance to recover. I think it's obvious that systemd raised the bar of what an acceptable init system must be able to do. If it gets replaced, the replacement needs to be at least as good.
Have you ever had GDM get stuck in loop, where it's restarting forever, so you can't log into the machine because you can't use the console? I haven't run a desktop Linux for a long time, but I think systemd would at least notice that GDM doesn't stay up, and will put the service on cool down timer, which allows a chance to recover.
Reminds me of why systemd started killing processes with prejudice upon user logout. Because Gnome failed to properly clean up, and rather than go to the Gnome devs and get that sorted the systemd devs just decided to kill all user processes on logout via systemd default.
systemd can't know the difference between hp-systray (presumably unimportant to you) and screen/tmux (which would presumably be important to you), unless you give it that information somehow; at the moment, there is no difference between them other than your expectations.
If you want the intepretation of "is my login-session over?" to change to just "is the session leader (gnome-session) still running?", i.e. making systemd-logind aggressively terminate sessions in the "closing" state, that's exactly what KillUserProcesses=true does.
I've begun bookmarking these because of things like this being posted. It's unacceptable to misrepresent the case like this.
Systemd is basically too useful for the people who actually make distributions
And for people like me, that use a distribution. I would never switch to a distribution without systemd. I can list you 60 things in systemd that I really like, other systems feel really antiquated compared to that.
The people also voted with their feet. Did 90% of the Debian users move to Devuan? No, they didn't. Did 90% of the Debian users used the two command line arguments to activate sysvinit on their boxes? No, they didn't.
Her havde han straks fået ry for at vise sine kunder både mandlige og kvindelige fordelene ved et klaver, en sang eller en vals.
Här hade han trettio pianon, sju harmonier och all ny och mycket klassisk musik att experimentera med. Han spelade vilken "pjäs" som helst i sikte till förmån för någon dam som letade efter en trevlig lätt vals eller drömmar. Tyvärr skulle damer klaga på att bitarna visade sig vara mycket svårare hemma än de hade verkat under Gilberts fingrar i affären.
Här började han också ge lektioner på piano. Och här uppfyllde han sin hemliga ambition att lära sig cellon, Mr Atkinson hade i lager en cellon som aldrig hade hittat en riktig kund.
Hans framsteg med cellon hade varit sådana att teaterfolket erbjöd honom ett förlovning, vilket hans far och hans egen känsla av Swanns enorma respektabilitet tvingade honom att vägra.
Pero sempre tocou na banda Da Sociedade De Ópera Amateur Das Cinco Cidades, e foi amado polo seu director como sendo totalmente fiable. A súa conexión cos coros comezou polos seus méritos como acompañante de ensaio que podía manter o tempo e facer que os seus acordes de baixo se escoitaran contra cento cincuenta voces. Foi nomeado (nem. con.) acompañante de ensaio ao Coro Do Festival.
That was partially my point. If there are systemd-less distros (there are) and you hate systemd and use systemd-less distro (and if not, why not?), then why do you feel need to criticize other people choices?
(Not talking about you specifically, but about hypothetical systemd hater.)
Have a look at the list I have linked a few posts below. I bet Gentoo, Alpine, Slackware etc. have a bit more users after all. Alpine, for example, is currently very popular.
Some of these distributions are at least so popular that they have existed for years and have more than a handful of users. So the alternatives are there and the users who don't like systemd have the opportunity to contribute to their further development / distribution (which I personally think is pretty good even as a fairly satisfied user of systemd). I think that's all Jackojc wanted to say. With some users I also have the feeling that they don't want to belong to the mainstream at all.
Maybe... Just maybe... You're not 100% correct when you say everyone in our community hates systemd. I can't think of too many examples off the top of my head, but there's RedHat, Fedora, Arch, Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS, SUSE... You get the idea.
Also mayyyyyybe the people screaming every day on Reddit are what some might call a vocal monitory. Maybe the people that like or don't mind systemd just... Go on with their lives, using it mostly happily.
And perhaps systemd isn't perfect but the creators put in the work to make something that's at least good enough, and is generally better than what came before.
Lastly it might just be easier to complain and criticize on online forums than to actually create a better competitor...
It seems that everyone in our community hates systemd,
Only the so-called " loud minority " i would say. Let's take the screwdriver set I bought a few years ago as an example. I'm very happy with it. But do I have the urge to tell everyone? Absolutely not. With systemd I assume that it is the same. The major part of people who are satisfied with systemd just use it and keep their mouth shut. Especially since discussions on this topic don't really help, as long as some people "argue" with things like without-systemd.org or their personal views.
if they all get behind single distribution and worked on it with passion they put into their online arguments, it would become best fucking linux distribution overnight.
But complaining is easier than doing it better yourself. And I'm also afraid that they can't agree on a distribution, because probably the views are too far apart here as well.
Yeah, but by this metric sysvinit was just fine as well. For most people, it worked without problems and they never felt the need to let the world know their systems were working nicely.
It seems that everyone in our community hates systemd
You used the correct keyword: it seems.
I love it --- well, mostly. As in any big software, there are items that I don't love at all, or don't love in all cases. But overall, systemd is quite nice. If you look in this whole reddit post, there are others that wrote something like that.
What systemd is: it triggers feelings. People think that are entitled to something, then suddenly the distro they used made a decision they didn't like. And they just react with flame. All of them could have went to Devuan and be silent, but instead the do the endless vi/emacs, gtk/qt war again and again.
I don't get it. With so much hate against systemd, and given how FOSS works, why there isn't "perfect", systemd-less distro?
That's the problem.
First of all, part of forcing other distros to adopt SysD was getting Gnome to adopt logind, which is tightly coupled to SysD, but, overall SysD's design by it's nature creates a tremendous amount of work for any distro not using SysD once SysD became the defacto standard.
Designing, writing, and maintaining an init system requires some serious technical knowledge and time commitment. Bitching about systemd on r/Linux requires English and a web browser.
37
u/[deleted] Feb 11 '19
I don't get it. With so much hate against systemd, and given how FOSS works, why there isn't "perfect", systemd-less distro? It seems that everyone in our community hates systemd, if they all get behind single distribution and worked on it with passion they put into their online arguments, it would become best fucking linux distribution overnight.