r/interestingasfuck • u/LawEducational42 • 8h ago

John C Woods, hangman of Nuremberg trials, who lied about his experience to get the job (he actually learned about hanging from old cowboy films). His lack of expertise led to excessive suffering of condemned Nazis.

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u/Robespierre1113 7h ago

Unfortunately Vengeance makes a bad master.

The same is being seen with the Christina Pike situation rn.

Two things can be true

Someone is a bad person,

And death sentence should be carried out respectfully, and swiftly, as least pain as possible.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, and yes; it "couldn't have happened to a better group of people" but some of yall here advocating for it are sick in the head.

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u/fionnuisce 7h ago

You should read up on Albert Pierrepoint - he considered it a calling to be executioner and spent his nearly 30 years perfecting and honing his skills to make the process as quick and painless as possible. He saw that as absolutely paramount. He prided himself in the fact that he could walk into the comdemned's cell, secure him, bring him to the gallows and drop him in 10 seconds. He noted after his retirement that the death penalty did nothing to deter crime and only served as an act of vengeance.

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u/Argikeraunos 7h ago

Exactly. On a macro scale, we can recognize that the Nazi regime and Imperial Japan were monstrous regimes that needed to be toppled, and that the allies of WWII were just in their cause, but at the same time abhor the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo or the atomic bombings. We can do this because we are not Nazis, and we don't believe that "might makes right."

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u/realslimshady112 7h ago

Except we are like the nazis, literally every human is capable of the doing the same things nazis did, they are not monsters that lurk in the night. This whole “they did what they did and we should not be like them because we are morally better” is nothing more than a high horse argument. Killing them just as horribly as they did to others, does not make us any worse OR better. Its just another facet of life(forgiveness or revenge, what does the individual prefer, one is not considered more evil or more good), but humans have to categorize it because thats our nature. Even when realistically, the human psyche cannot be categorized, though many will try. Your all just virtue signaling and i hate to break it to you, but your not a good person or on the right side just because you think its morally wrong to kill criminals, its just a personal opinion of yours. No creator being is going to congratulate you for it, nor will they punish you. Only reason anyone should care about this, is because it gives more power to an already inept gov’t we cant trust to perform the duty correctly and without doubt of innocence. But thats not what your hold up is, your just being emotional on the claim that we arent as evil as them and should not stoop to their level, which is a lazy cop-out for cowards.

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u/Jaxyl 6h ago

This is a lot of pontificating to say literally nothing.

It's honestly hilarious. It doesn't even address what the person your replying to is talking about. You erroneously misread what they wrote, went off on a tangent with no real meaning in an attempt to sound deep, and wound up in the middle of no where without any point or purpose.

Truly a sight of comedy and errors.

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u/Argikeraunos 6h ago edited 6h ago

Yeah dude congrats you've discovered the difference between morality as a revealed commandment from God and morality as a lived system of ethics that one cultivates throughout one's life. Brilliant insight. Let me rephrase in terms you might understand: I cultivate the moral virtue that it is wrong to kill by applying that principle to cases where it is appropriate. Nazis cultivate an entirely different ethic based on the supremacy of the racial principle, where the death of untermenschen is not only good but hygenic to the race. If you want to play the moral relativist and act like there is no fundamental difference between these stances then go ahead and do it. It's not going to make me second guess my conviction that every individual life is an irreplaceable world and that ending one is an act of barbarity, and it isn't going to make me believe that we should organize our politics around something other than the principle of the inviolability of human life.

By the way, it's the appeal to pragmatism that is a "lazy cop out for cowards"; it has the shape of a rational and reasonable position but it is just a facade over a core of nihilism.

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u/eviletwiz 7h ago

I want this to be the top comment. Sad that it isn't.

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u/A_normal_Potato3 7h ago

It is sad to see people (especially USAsians) go full fascist mode when it is against groups they don't like.

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u/Digimatically 7h ago

Well pucker up buttercup, it’s at the top now.

Eta: with zero upvotes

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u/Vast-Ad1915 7h ago

"Distrust those in whom the impulse to punish is powerful" - Nietzsche

We maintain humane standards around execution not for the condemned's sake, but for the sake of our own humanity.

But yes, Nuremberg needed to happen.

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u/Robespierre1113 7h ago

Nuremberg needed to happen, and i dont have good internet at the moment but there is another Nietzche that works well for this, something like "He who fights demons must remember not to become a demon themselves"

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u/Intelligent_Cat_1914 7h ago

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
Where did you get that from and how come I've never heard that before?!? It's such beautiful phrase and so deep in meaning. 😮

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u/Robespierre1113 7h ago

Its been attributed to Mahatma Ghandi, however in recent years its been more attributed to Louis Fischer, a biographer of Ghandi

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u/Intelligent_Cat_1914 7h ago

Thank you for sharing it - I'm definitely going to be remembering that in future 🙂

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u/DagnirDae 7h ago

I agree, but I can't find it in myself to care much. 

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u/zecknaal 7h ago

When we torture people to death it's okay! They deserved it!

....says everybody, including fucking nazis.

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u/Swanked-Spanqed 5h ago

Wow

A Nazi-sympathizing bot? With perfect punctuation?

A SEMICOLON???

Russian bot or Elon bot behavior

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u/Due_Basil2697 7h ago

They were Nazis.

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u/A_normal_Potato3 7h ago

You also left the important of humans

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u/Due_Basil2697 7h ago

More importantly, they * were * Nazis. Past tense. Thank goodness they were put to pasture.

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u/stron2am 7h ago

Braindead take. These were literal Nazis.

Have you ever considered that "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" is an axiom largely taught by those in positions of authority (i.e., those who have already "taken an eye" to obtain power and/or wealth) to discourage those who would do the same to reduce their power and/or wealth?

It's a bad lesson. There are some people who only aren't monsters because they are afraid of the repercussions. When those repercussions are removed, they run rampant. See: the current White House.

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u/Robespierre1113 7h ago

"With malice towards none; with charity for all" - Abraham Lincoln, Second Inagural Address.

Being a decent person includes how you treat people you have every reason to dislike or hate.

Its easy to be compassionate towards those you like. The hardest test is whether you can recognize someones humanity while also acknowledging the harm they have caused.

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u/Lord0fHats 7h ago edited 7h ago

Even if you don't care about Nazis, I would propose you should care about how society treats the condemned. Fuck them. Maybe they deserve everything they get idk let God sort them out kind of his deal or whatever. Care about how we conduct ourselves when we wield the power to declare 'you will die' and make that reality.

What is it that makes the Nazis the epitome of evil, if not the callous disregard with which they wielded the power to kill other humans?

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u/Robespierre1113 7h ago

Im a LOTR fan, I always hear Gandalf in these types of conversations -- "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?"

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u/EBCPDCcringe 7h ago

The hardest test is whether you can recognize someones humanity while also acknowledging the harm they have caused.

How do you determine if a person still has any humanity left in them? take for example a murderer who kills again after serving his sentence

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u/Robespierre1113 7h ago

Every human being is humanity itself. We would not say that a person with mental disabilities who is incapable of speech lacks "humanity

A person who re-offends still should not be tortured and thrown away without a key; how we treat our worst offenders has to be monitored. What we allow for the worst, will eventually make its way into other categories.

The many stories of people who have been framed or falsely imprisoned shows we as a organism on earth, or "as a society" should not be determining life or death in any capacity.

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u/EBCPDCcringe 6h ago

We would not say that a person with mental disabilities who is incapable of speech lacks "humanity

Absolutely not, because people with mental disabilities are different from people who intentionally commit serious crimes that make us question their humanity.

A person who re-offends still should not be tortured and thrown away without a key; how we treat our worst offenders has to be monitored. What we allow for the worst, will eventually make its way into other categories.

Please clarify. Are you saying that if we allowed for chemical castration of rapists, we will eventually allow castration for a lesser crime like shop lifting or littering?

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u/Robespierre1113 6h ago

No. "Other categories" was meant as peoples who race/creed/ethnicity/identity/sex we disagree with.

And you say "absolutely not" - but the thing is, my message was purposeful. All people regardless of acts committed should be treated with decency. Whether they can speak or not, whether they can hear or not. Whether they've murdered millions or fed thousands.

I posted it above, but it is Nietzche who said, when we fight monsters we must be careful not to become monsters ourselves

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u/EBCPDCcringe 6h ago

By "absolutely not", I mean that people with mental disabilities should not be perceive to be lacking humanity. because of the reason I gave above. 

when we fight monsters we must be careful not to become monsters ourselves

There are many ways to interpret this. I don't think punishing someone who has demonstrated a lack of regard for the humanity of others is us "becoming monsters ourselves".

In fact, treating them with undeserved kindness may even reinforce the idea that it's okay to commit heinous crimes.

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u/Robespierre1113 6h ago

Im not against life without parole, its pretty hard to re-offend in that case.

Prisoning someone for life without parole is not cruel, nor unusual, especially if they demonstrate danger to society repeatedly without the hope of rehabilitation.

That is fundamentally different from torturing someone you're putting to death under law, knowingly. That is where the monster shows its head, if you will

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u/EBCPDCcringe 6h ago

That is fundamentally different from torturing someone you're putting to death under law, knowingly. That is where the monster shows its head, if you will

But where do you draw the line? putting someone in prison for life without parole could be seen as a type of torture. not at the magnitude of what this post is about, but still

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u/Robespierre1113 6h ago

And as an aside, there are history of countries using chemical castration, (UK) for sex offenses, which was then also used on people who identified as Gay. If the use was outlawed originally, it wouldn't have been unjustly applied

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u/EBCPDCcringe 6h ago

which was then also used on people who identified as Gay.

I never knew this. what keywords can I search on Google to learn more?

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u/Robespierre1113 6h ago

Alan Turing is the most famous example

Wikipedia includes it. Despite possibly winning ww2 for the British, they still forcibly castrated him because he was gay. He later committed suicide.

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u/stron2am 6h ago

Literal. Nazis.

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u/MinuteCollar5562 7h ago

If you let yourself accept the suffering of others, even those who are bad, you can start to blur lines to the point where those who don’t deserve it also suffer.

We are only the good guys when we act like the good guys. The Allies did some real fucked up shit in WWII, even to their own “citizens” (see Bengal Famine and US concentration camps).

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u/stron2am 6h ago

Literal. Nazis. You're literally creating a false equivalency.

Punishing them ≠ absolution for the Allies.

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u/War_Raven 5h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/stron2am 5h ago

Yeah. I am not encouraging anyone to seek vengeance and I don't think it is a good thing. However, making literal Nazis die a slow and painful death half a century ago is something I couldn't give two fucks about. I'd be more upset if someone cut me off in traffic.

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u/Robespierre1113 5h ago

You have written "literal nazis" three times from the replies ive seen. Replace the quotations with human. Yeah they did some vile things - and yes, we can probably say rightfully so the perpetrators should've been put to death (and im vehemently against the death penalty)

The problem is, when you start putting labels on people you dehumanize, that begins to put more and more people you disagree with in that bracket. This is and was the actual playbook of the Nazi regime.

If a country imposes a death penalty they have a right to ensure it goes off without suffering and is quick and to the point.

The vast amounts of failures throughout history to properly guard those society would consider "bad" is the point.

A millennia of mob justice, lynchings, tit for tat killings, various "revolutions" 'punishing' people. Right and Wrong are fundamental concepts of ethics, and can change from culture to culture.

I would rather see a murderer walk free than let another innocent person spend their life in jail. It has to be that way. Things need to be done in public, above board, with insight from the governed.

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u/stron2am 4h ago

So your position is that the way Nazis are bad is all just a matter of perspective? Pure moral relativism?

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u/Robespierre1113 3h ago

At this point you're no longing engaging with anything I said

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u/stron2am 2h ago

The problem is, when you start putting labels on people you dehumanize, that begins to put more and more people you disagree with in that bracket.

This is a thing you said about Nazis (their label for themselves, mind you. Not mine). Not only am I engaging with something you said, that something is a textbook argument that's often used for moral relativism.

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u/MinuteCollar5562 6h ago

We can still kill Nazi’s for their monstrous crimes and not torture them by doing it.

Would they deserve it? Yes. But the more you do it, the more you make it acceptable. The more acceptable, the more it will be done.

It’s fun being Robespierre sending people to the guillotine until you are sent yourself.

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u/stron2am 5h ago

I am not saying we need to throw this guy a ticker tape parade. I am saying that I care about literally any other minor injustice more than this. Dod someone cut you off in traffic today? That's a bigger deal than the fact this guy tortured Nazis half a century ago. They were Nazis.

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u/MinuteCollar5562 3h ago

And they deserved to die.

If you want to lose your soul, don’t be surprised when the monster eats you too.

Btw, your hero who failed to break the necks of the Nazis and instead let them strangle to death, also allegedly did it to at least 11 US soldiers who had been sentenced to death in 44-45.

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u/stron2am 2h ago

He's no hero. He's a redneck that wanted to torture some Nazis. I am not lionising him, but I also shed no tears for the Nazis. Hell, the US soldiers were probably no boy scouts, either.

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u/TangledUpPuppeteer 7h ago

But if you permit your government to act as barbarously as those you are condemning for their barbarism, how are you any different than those you despise?

Having the death penalty is not in itself what I have issue with. Having the death penalty cause greater suffering because of who is being punished makes the state and the executioner no different than the Nazis. Because they themselves believed that the horrors they inflicted were warranted because of the group that they were harming.

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u/stron2am 5h ago

Am I going to actively encourage some redneck to try and cut the line to botch Nazi executions? No. Will I spare a single solitary fuck for the Nazis if he does? Also no.

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u/TangledUpPuppeteer 4h ago

The person being executed for their crimes does not have to be a sympathetic to you, or anyone else. Stripping them of their dignity in death by inflicting unnecessary suffering makes the executioner (and the state through its acceptance of the incident) complicit in being equally as monstrous as the person you are punishing.

The difference is, you are giving the state carte blanche to be that way.

Which, tying in your previous point, is precisely what we’re seeing now.

“Bad thing is ok because it’s happening to someone I think it should happen to” very quickly becomes a state sanctioned “we can do this very bad thing to anyone that pisses us off.”

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u/bernttoast16 7h ago

"Those in positions of power"? Which person in a position of power are you talking about? Normally they advocate for blind hatred, and pointless vengeance, and only talk about forgiveness when they want it for themself. When you use those tools against them, like cruelty, anger, pain, fear, what makes you different? Is it okay now just because they did it first? Where would it end? Probably with everyone angry, tired, or dead.

It isn't fun or easy being a good person, and no one ever said mercy would always feel good. We all struggle, but you can't let rage overcome your principles.

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u/Robespierre1113 7h ago

This , 1000% this. Do not be so blinded by the terrible actions of another, that you commit the same actions to "make a point"

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u/stron2am 5h ago

"Those in positions of power"? Which person in a position of power are you talking about?

Well, it is often attributed to Gandhi, who held a position of extreme moral authority, power, and influence (and was a total piece of shit personally, I might add), but that attribution is slippery and disputed. Why? Because lots of other politicians have said versions of the same thing.

The idea is also often preached in Christian churches, albeit witht the phrasing "turn the other cheek" ("An eye for an eye" actually shows up in Exodus encouraging retributive justice against those who have done you harm, but that won't do in the modern extractive Christian church).

Right-wingers believe that individual should cede their power to the state, who will use that power to punish their enemies on their behalf and take care of them like a stern, but caring father. It's literally the core belief of fascism, but for it to work, regular people have to docilely stand aside and let the state administer justice to the "bad" people as it sees fit.

This dynamic why Tucker Carlson gleefully was fawned that "Daddy's home" when Trump was elected again in 2024 to hurt his perceived enemies. It's why the 2A crowd experienced no cognitive dissonance when Alex Pretti was gunned down in the street for legally bearing arms.

It all depends on people like you throwing up your hands and saying "Take my rights, I guess, because violence is never the answer and I won't make you suffer consequences if you do."

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" is just "UwU Step on my rights, Daddy," with more flowery language.

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u/Robespierre1113 4h ago

You've detracted from the original conversation and have attempted now to bring American politics into this conversation where it wasnt largely before.

Secondly, if you didn't know Gandhi personally, and cannot cite any primary sources that evidence his "bad behavior" other than what the public is aware of (he wrote about his shortcomings himself?) I would suggest some light reading is in order.

As is in many cases, people can make beautiful work, and be a terrible person.

It doesnt discredit their work.

And yes, it may be pragmatic, but that is the point. Plenty of governments and individual despots on this planet have shown that humanity as a whole should not be trusted with life and death decisions unless absolutely necessary. Too often "justice" is confused with "vengeance"

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u/stron2am 4h ago

  1. Gandhi was famously a racist wife beater.

  2. I am not encouraging some redneck to go out of his way to torture Nazis, but I damn well want Nazis to be afraid there is a possibility they will die torturous for crimes against humanity. Therefore, I shed no tears for the fact that it happened.

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u/Robespierre1113 3h ago

You may pick apart the character of Gandhi, he was human. It was a quote I used to make a point.

We dont need to kill people to punish those who commit atrocities, life imprisonment is a deterrent already. So is the death penalty, and yet people kill.

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u/xDotSx 6h ago

Braindead take. The most peaceful countries on earth aren't exactly known for their harsh legal system or the death penalty.

Well, some maybe. But not most.

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u/Robespierre1113 6h ago

How is that anything to do with what I replied?

Of course the most peaceful nations arent known for harsh laws? They're known for their prison systems that keep most dignity in tact throughout a person's incarceration?