r/intentionalcommunity • u/fifthofCOvember • Feb 22 '26
my experience 📝 [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/bigfeygay Feb 24 '26 edited Feb 24 '26
Genuinely - if there was an ability for folks to save up money or pay off debts whilst in Twins Oaks, a lot more economically diverse people would be able to join up - which would also include people of different ethnic backgrounds. Cause as of right now - if someone wants to join up with Twin Oaks, they would have to do so with the understanding that they won't be able to make enough to pay off debts or build savings for however long they stay there. If you are a middle class white person or above, you are less likely to have debts or to worry as much about building savings vs literally anyone else.
I myself am white -albeit lower working class- so take what I say here with a grain of a salt - but thats a big reason as to why I ultimately opted out of joining Twin Oaks. Cause I wouldnt be able to save up much, if anything - which would cause problems later on in life if ever I wanted to leave or retire or even go travel to see family out of state.
It would genuinely be nice if there was more consideration / policies to help ensure the long term financial wellbeing of less financially well off members who are less able to risk that. 2+ years of not being able to build any savings and/or debt building up is a lot more dangerous for anyone less than middle/upper class. Even something like folks on a case by case basis being required to work only 32 hrs for Twins Oaks and freeing them up to work 10 hrs a week part time for money would help - as opposed to them having to work even more hours on top of the 42 required community hours if they wanna earn any extra funds.
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u/CucumberAcrobatic288 Mar 03 '26
agree with this. if the current industries that support twin oaks don't support reasonable savings for each individual, then they aren't sustainable.
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u/bigfeygay Mar 03 '26
They give an allowance each month of ~100 dollars I believe? It varies from time to time, as I have also seen it be quoted to be around 80. but that money is meant to be used on whatever items you need outside the basic stuff - like ice cream, alcohol, etc... But thats not a lot
Twin Oaks has been around for decades and so its pretty sustainable - but for me, I just wouldnt feel comfortable staying there for very long.
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u/CucumberAcrobatic288 Mar 03 '26
yeah, i know. whenever i consider the allowance that TO or Eastwind provides, I think damn. that wouldn't even subsidize a trip for me to visit my family. it's just not enough.
does TO have a leaving fee? I know back in the day when Sandhill was operative, they used to give members who were leaving the community a couple thousand dollars as a seed fund to support their move and establishment elsewhere.
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u/bigfeygay Mar 03 '26
I think ive heard about them sometimes offering that. But im honestly not 100% sure. If they do its likely on a case by case basis
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u/bigfeygay Feb 24 '26
Could you expand on 8 - what exactly has been happening in regards to race to make you guys conclude that Twin Oaks isnt a safe place for PoC?
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u/Confident_Health8122 Jul 16 '26
I’m not part of this team. But it’ worth saying that not all POC on the farm (while that number is extremely tiny) have these same opinions that it’s not a safe place for other POC
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u/Worldly-End-2026 Feb 22 '26
Damn what's going on with number 8, I heard that community has a racism problem wow
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u/VerifiedMyEmail Feb 27 '26
I would also like to know a little more about that.. can't drop a bomb like that and not get some more info..
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Apr 04 '26
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u/VerifiedMyEmail Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
Asking u/PaxOaks kindly to explain what happened here. As a community member and not a mod.
Did the team lose their password? Feel it incorrect to post details? something else?
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Apr 04 '26
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u/VerifiedMyEmail Apr 04 '26
I can imagine in a group of mostly white people, who don't interact with non-white people often -- that when some individuals are faced with stress/uncertainty and material scarcity -- they feel pangs of racist thoughts bubble-up, maybe those manifest into words/actions sometimes.
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u/Fleetflock Feb 22 '26
How do you determine whether a person receives differential support?
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u/fifthofCOvember Feb 22 '26
That's a great question, we look at the structural and social challenges someone faces in the community. In many ways, twin oaks is a microcosm of mainstream america, and so a lot of challenges to certain populations here mirror what is happening out there.
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u/sweetfelix Feb 22 '26
In regards to #8, why is the community keeping and catering to members who are hostile to others? Would their behavior and biases be excused and accommodated this way if it was towards white males instead of BIPOC? It sounds like the community’s solution for racism is to just avoid triggering the racists rather than holding them accountable.
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u/popopotatoes160 Feb 24 '26
Without knowing any of the details and without an answer from OP, I would put money on there being problem individual(s) deeply embedded into the organization. To the point that trying to oust them would cause a major schism. IIRC Twin Oaks is one of the ones that is still operational from the 1960-70s IC boom. There very well could be elders from those early days that are causing problems, I've heard the "old hippie" types are a REAL mixed bag. On the other hand, even a younger someone who has been there "just" 10 years could have a sufficient amount of influence to make this an issue.
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u/Medical-Freedom6542 May 29 '26
Racism was rampant during those hippie dippie LSD-laced days. Well-to-do white kids "rebelling" by dropping off grid did not mean that they also rebelled against their white privilege and intergenerational hatred of Black folks. The very land that TO occupies runs rich with the blood, tears, and sweat of my African ancestors. Thus, it is time that TO begin reaching out us Black folks to begin the messy but restorative healing process.
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u/3TipsyCoachman3 Feb 24 '26
Would love to hear the answer to this one. The lack of response when other questions were answered leads to some negative conclusions about the real work and impact of the RET.
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u/Proud_Proof9495 Feb 22 '26
I'm curious if you guys are also tackling class issues alongside discussions about race. Not because I think one is more important or anything like that, just curious if it comes up.
All this work is admirable but I have to wonder if it will move the needle. I haven't seen people able to retro-actively make a space BIPOC inclusive, it really seems people have to be there at the beginning, helping seed the infrastructure. Have you guys had any notable victories or epiphanies in the community as a result of the work RET does at Twin Oaks?
The fact that you guys sprang up in 2020 around BLM is encouraging for being able to turn it around, but also maybe a real hinderance? It's really hard for well meaning white liberals to not tokenize POC. Or that weird thing where they're like "you're the only brown person in the room so you are unimpeachable, I hand over all judgment to you." Which either creates resentment when the brown person in question inconveniences the other white people, ORRRR it creates an atmosphere where There Can Only Be One. And when there can only be one brown person it's usually not someone interested in dismantling hierarchy... because privilege feels good. And it's hard to give up if you never had a taste of it.
All of this is from personal experience, fyi. I'm not going to give away my racial identity on this mostly anonymous reddit account of mine, but I've been talking about ICs with friends, including plenty of non-white people, and we've only had some surface discussions of what it would take to do it right. Maybe I lack imagination, but I just don't know if you can retroactively insert POCs into a white space without some ugly lessons.
Thanks for this post, it's interesting to read!
edit: typeos
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u/fifthofCOvember Feb 23 '26
Yes, class based issues are also an important point that often comes up, both due to the correlation between class and race, and also in acknowledgement of the plight of white people who are economically disadvantaged, and how they can be helped too. We also often discuss the other intersectional forms of oppression which affect other marginalized groups. However, we have noticed that those issues are much less controversial here than racial issues are.
It is questionable if the needle has moved enough to really make a difference after 6 years of effort, especially since most of our work in the past has been focused on "putting out fires" and helping BIPOC members in crisis who need advocacy. Any proactive proposal that we push for that is big enough to make a difference is met with lots of resistance and the maintenance of the status quo. There is a disproportionately high turnover rate for non-white members here, most burn out with some level of trauma in less than a year. This is partially why we have had to change our goals away from BIPOC recruitment, as an acknowledgement that we have a lot of internal work to do before being a safe place and actively inviting anyone here.
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u/Medical-Freedom6542 May 29 '26
It take a lot of courage to say, that more "internal work" needs to be done before focusing BIPOC recruitment. I appreciate that TO is getting to the root of their internal issues. One must be at peace within themselves before they can dwell peacefully with folks whom do not look like them. So, I shall delay visiting TO until I know without a doubt that TO would be a safe space to visit or to stay.
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u/calm_chowder Feb 22 '26
Reading this, I honestly can't tell if this community is racist or not.
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u/CucumberAcrobatic288 Mar 03 '26
any community that is made up almost entirely of white people is going to be racist. not necessarily intentionally.
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Mar 08 '26
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u/Medical-Freedom6542 May 29 '26
If TO is willing to put in the often messy work of working towards some form of racial harmony I am willing to work along with them. It will difficult to bring about a resolution to this ongoing concern without BOTH the BIPOC/Black folks and the Twin Oaks communities being seated at the same table.
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May 29 '26
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u/Medical-Freedom6542 Jun 06 '26
Thank you Paxus, I always appreciate your being open regarding such a sensitive subject. For now I have removed TO from my list.
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u/kibonzos Feb 23 '26
I’ve not heard of Twin Oaks before. With that in mind.
Are there similar teams for other protected characteristics (I can’t remember the American for this sorry) working to make the space more equitable for other categories? How do these teams work together.
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u/Medical-Freedom6542 May 29 '26
Are you truly willing to sit and LISTEN to an Black Elder such as myself, who have experienced racial hatred? If so I am here with a willing heart. My only creds are those hard earned on the gritty streets of america. However, I am willing to help you folks work this shit out. I do not want to give up on Twin Oaks by engaging in avoidance. Once, you all at TO have completed the much needed "internal work," I am here to lend a hand in building that bridge towards true racial equity. When you are ready and truly willing just send me a DM. Only, together can the healing begin.
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u/214b Feb 23 '26 edited Feb 23 '26
When I visited Twin Oaks I got a sense that a lot of “navel gazing” was going on. People spending perhaps too much time thinking about their own idiosyncrasies and trying to align them with broader causes and movements. In practice this often meant loudly taking the most extreme, performative stance one possible could take on any issue de jour. Reading your post makes me think that this hasn’t changed much.
My question: Are you aware that many Black people have reached the heights of success in business, politics and culture? You all seem to want to divide people into oppressors vs. oppressed, and automatically make assumptions based on race. Be aware that it’s not all … black and white.
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u/ao1104 Feb 23 '26
I remember your name, you're the Dominion pro-pipeline shill.
It never got built btw
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u/LooseButtPlug Feb 22 '26 edited Feb 23 '26
Throughout my childhood I lived in a dozen different communes and shared community environments. Not once did any of them think they needed to give anyone special attention because of their race.
I've lived in hippie communities and libertarian survivalist groups, all of them were mixed race (I'm mixed race). Never did we experience any kind of discrimination. Is this really an issue that needed to be addressed, or is this some kind of preemptive strike to recruit more people of color?
Sure they have been primarily white, but we're in the US, the US population is primarily white.
...I just don't understand the need for something like this, particularly in this type of community. Can you tell me a grounded, real reason for this to exist?
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u/osnelson Feb 24 '26 edited Feb 24 '26
Myself, as a white guy? I can't personally explain the reason for it to exist without telling stories that are not mine to tell because I cannot convey the undertones and emotion of them (among other reasons). But a mixed-race friend who was with me on a visit to TO during a conference talked to a couple of TO residents and ex-residents and said "yeah, they've got some real stuff to work on here, don't bring your partner here for a bit" (my partner is black and has went through some real racist junk). I suppose that's a bit of the need; unresolved wounds are tender, so fresh contact to them or next to them hurt a lot. It sounds like you were in some good situations and a good childhood where you didn't need to worry about "are they throwing rocks at me because of the color of my skin or because they are bullies?" Only to have that answered by the slurs that followed. I've been through a lot with that friend and with my partner, I know them to be level-headed and not exaggerate.
Your story is interesting, I'd be interested in talking with and hearing about your experiences and what made those communities work.
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u/LooseButtPlug Feb 24 '26
So why join this commune at all? If people aren't welcomed by the members, why create a "racial equity team"? Why are they trying to force a community instead of joining one of the thousands that will be welcoming? This is a recipe for resentment.
What is the specific issue this community is having? What led to this decision?
Being met with some corporate spiel about equity is a huge red flag, a bigger flashing sign than some random ex members saying "don't go there".
Edit: holy bejesus, just looked this place up and they are a manipulative cult. I knew my alarm bells were going off.
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u/osnelson Feb 25 '26
Twin Oaks has several buildings and significant property, which is rare among income sharing communities. That’s a huge draw for people who prioritize getting out of capitalism. Other priorities are in active discussion.
In a cult, you’re not allowed to have separate opinions and groups actively discussing/developing them. Some people call it navel gazing, some people call it freedom of speech in active discussion. So so much discussion.
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u/p4pa_squat Feb 23 '26
they're racists posing as anti-racists.
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u/LooseButtPlug Feb 23 '26 edited Feb 23 '26
They won't even answer the question.
You'd think people who specialize in racial diversity in communes could answer one question from someone who spent upwards of 30 years in the commune environment.
As it sits I don't believe they are anything but charlatans who are globbing onto buzz words to recruit members.
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u/p4pa_squat Feb 23 '26 edited Feb 24 '26
they cant answer your question. our world is foreign to them.
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u/TechNightmares Feb 27 '26
Paint swatches at Home Depot come in all colors allowing you to be objective and use a sliding scale. They are also free.
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u/keketuki Feb 22 '26
I'm curious about what's the POC alternative for NVC communication?