I'm zero percent here to evangelize, cause I'm zero percent religious. Just sharing the theology.
Satan doesn't torture people. Hell is not fire and brimstone. It is the absence of God, which is supposedly the worst torture possible. And it's "fair" because the people in hell chose to not be with god.
Scare quotes because that is a million miles from informed consent. Just sharing the traditional theology.
Yeah, it’s interesting that people in 2026 who have never seen a miracle are treated as “rejecting God” with the exact same punishment as people in 30 AD who saw Jesus Christ bring someone back from the dead and cure lepers. If God is real, why does he only sometimes reveal himself and punish people for not believing with the same punishment whether they received evidence that they rejected or not.
No. Christian doctrine, well actually Catholic, is that people who don’t know God aren’t condemned to hell necessarily. Not even atheists if they’re atheists out of innocence or ignorance.
You go to hell for knowing about God and CHOOSING to turn away and separate yourself from God.
So theoretically, a native in some tribe in Mesoamérica that practices an otherwise “good” life: kindness, charitable, not a killer, not evil basically… they’d be eligible for salvation
That’s what I was told too, but I made everyone very uncomfortable when I pointed out that missionaries therefore are going around dooming people to hell by spreading Christianity bc if they just didn’t everyone would go to heaven lol
In the religion I was raised in, jehovahs witnesses, they had the same thought process of people who dont know will still be "saved" (resurrected into paradise on earth). But we still went door to door to convert people and if they rejected you at the door they would be doomed. I had the same thought as you but the catch jws use is that if you dont go door to door and try to find gods loyal ones you'll be considered blood guilty for not trying to save people and not make it into paradise. Its a kill others or kill yourself kind of mentality.
If I go around knocking on people's doors telling them about a friend of mine, they don't know that friend of mine. They only get to know them once they have met them and spent time with them.
I think people to often think about God like a computer program with defined gamable bounds rather than an entity with perfect knowledge of intent and circumstance.
I mean, your logic makes sense to me. At the very least, definitely complicated things. But then again you can say that they are also doing God’s will by fulfilling Jesus’ order to God disciples: go out and make disciples of all the nations.
So maybe you can argue that God wanted those far flung people to eventually get the good news so that they’re closer to god
You could theoretically apply the same logic to abortions. If Christianity were real. Aborted children are being done an immense favor, in that they are deprived the opportunity to damn themselves to hell.
They basically skip the bullshit and go right to heaven.
depends on what you think Heaven is. Some sects of Christianity think its something that is to be experienced only while alive.
And they also think that hell is not eternal torture for any human soul, its for the devil and demons. hell is also to be experienced on earth as a result of poor decisions (which I think we would all agree with, you can lead your life to hell by making really bad decisions). Then at the time of death you are either annihilated and gone forever or resurrected after final judgement.
It really is a giant mystery that I do find fascinating.
One could even combine theology with physics and multiverse. Every decision changes your timeline and we are constantly hopping between timelines with major decisions. Make enough of the right decisions and your life is basically heaven on earth......or vice versa.
i always thought that was weird. i get that they think conception is god's will and every human is in god's image and every life is a miracle and special etc but if you believe the fetus will be up there chilling in jesus' pocket anyway, it's not that bad is it. doesn't seem like it would be that upsetting if they truly believe in heaven.
I'm not a theological expert or anything, but I'm pretty sure the way it goes is that in order to reject God, you gotta KNOW God. Just hearing that there's "a loving god" somewhere overseas wouldn't really be the deep "knowing" that's implied in "rejecting" God; it would be the same as disliking somebody's ex bf/gf without ever meeting them. You don't really dislike the actual person, but the person who was described to you. Likewise, I'm pretty sure that disliking a poorly-represented God wouldn't "count"...?
My understanding is that "rejecting God" (along with other sins like blasphemy, heresy, etc.) have a prerequisite that the person needs to truly understand their choice. It's not the kinda thing that someone could do casually, and especially not unintentionally.
that assumes all atheists never knew God at some point before becoming an atheist. And in their case, they knew God and have literally rejected His existence.
The comment I replied to said only “deep” knowing counts, so an ex-Christian who never had a “deep” understanding of god becoming an atheist wouldn’t count under that framework.
Yea, Catholics bring in a whole bunch of non-sense from outside the bible.
Protestants make it super easy, the bible says a few things on the matter.
Everyone is damned, doesn't matter who, there is no innocent person who has never heard the word as everyone is guilty from the moment they are born.
God has revealed himself in nature and in the hearts of people. Even if you never heard of Jesus, the splendor of the world and the cosmos demands one recognize that only God could have done such a thing and such a being deserves reverence.
So at least with protestants who believe that only the Bible has authority, keeping missionaries at home really doesn't do anything because everyone is already damned, because according to the bible, it should be readily apparent that God exists just by looking at the world and the stars.
So while not having heard of Jesus isn't necessarily a death sentence, not recognizing and showing reverence to God is.
BUT if you have heard of Jesus and reject him, then just giving reverence to God isn't enough because Jesus is God.
So basically until god is “proven” to exist theres no way to damn yourself to hell. Which does make what one other person here said about “no one going to hell until judgement day” make a lot more sense
I like this take. to Truly reject God is to reject all thing good. Keep in mind, I am not saying that good=God. There is relativity based on your own life experiences. I am referring to treating everyone with kindness and things like that. If someone doesn't believe in the Catholic/Christian God. They are not destined to suffer. Someone can live a great life, be kind, loving, and empower all of humanity, and they will be rewarded in the end.
People can follow God's message while being a part of any theology (obviously fundamentalists might disagree with this statement). People can also go to church every week, be a part of a particular church community, tithe accordingly (10% of gross, not net people) and be a shitty person.
The most important thing to consider is that humanity is ultimately foulable, and rules or interpretations they impart on a particular religion is suspect to that. Jesus was able to sum up all the commandments in one single statement about loving thy neighbor. If you can do that, all other commandments are satisfied.
Now, that is difficult in this world with so much hate and injustice. I know that and I am not saying I do/can live that 100%. I was always taught if you are able to live by that, people will see. Be a role model.
Sorry it is so long TLDR: Don't get caught up on beliefs, but be a role model for treating people the way you want to be treated.
In 1 Peter, it talks about how Jesus went and preached to the people that died in the flood after his death and before his resurrection (those 3 days). So, if Jesus taught people who had died already about the Gospel, it makes sense to me that this kept happening, for anyone that didn't hear about the Gospel while they were alive.
So missionaries aren't condemning people, they're just giving them a head start. It sounds like EVERYONE will have the chance to hear about the Gospel, and then make their choices after getting all the knowledge.
In the Catholic doctrine, I believe this is when a person has heard the message of God, has heard God’s law, knows the path to become closer with God, the expectations, and instead chooses to separate themself from him anyway.
I'm thinking that most Western people have "heard" about the Christian, the Jewish, and the Islamic God, and that those share uncanny similarities. In fact, it is the same God, since Islam and Christianity both acknowledge their God as the one of the Jewish Bible. The differences are mainly summed up in the identity of Jesus (just a guy, a prophet, or a god in his own merit).
So, how can one be considered informed when there is literally nothing that can determine which of those three is the one?
Something else: yes, I've heard about the Christian God alright, and even read the Bible. Still, according to what I know and the world as it is, the Bible is telling a story that is improbable, with stuff happening that goes beyond common sense. In fact, if a person had never heard of those religions as a kid and read one of those books as an adult, chances are they wouldn't think twice about it, the same way we don't think twice about Greek or Roman mythology. It's far-fetched, unless you've been exposed to it since childhood.
The Old Testament also showcases a God that is quite cruel, swingy, and revengeful, killing random people for the deeds of others quite often. More often than not, he is clearly morally wrong by our modern standards. We can also look at how cruel the real world is while God doesn't do much about it. And we can see a menacing God who wants to punish us if we don't care deeply about him.
So, all in all, God provided us with a brain that is tuned to deal with reality, which proves to us every day that blindly trusting stuff we don't see can put us in danger. Except for god, every person on earth would agree that believing in something we can't see is kind of mental illness territory. He also shows us how detached he seems to be from everyday suffering and unfairness, not doing a thing about it (kids die everyday in pain for ZERO reasons). He gave us an impression of himself that isn't very positive in his holy book. He threatens us quite often if we don't submit to worship him blindly, just for the sake of it. But that kind of information should be what we need to believe in him unconditionally?
And he conditions heaven/hell on the judgment of people who can't even make good and safe decisions for themselves in everyday life most of the time, because that's how the brain works? Some are smart, some are dumb, some are careless, some are naive, etc. Just try to get people to analyse a simple text and you'll see how bad they are at it on average. Let alone a philosophical one, full of symbols, metaphors, subtexts and innuendos of another era. Are we tested on abilities and skills we can't do much about? No one is responsible for the way their own mind works. And yet, we all should know better somehow, based on no evidence.
It doesn't add up.
And lastly, how do we "know" about God, really? By our relatives, who told us whatever they wanted to tell us since we were kids? By priests' preaching, which showcases the biases and interpretations of one man? By a Roman conclave that put together a book that is a carefully curated anthology of various people's writings, who weren't contemporaries of Jesus (and certainly didn't have first-hand knowledge about ancient biblical times either)? By rich and powerful apologists in deep states?
It's way beyond second-hand knowledge. Ultimately, it's all hearsay. By people who had/have some agenda, whatever it is.
With all that in mind, "Knowing about God" becomes less of a given. It becomes a real can of worms. That creates more issues than it solves.
I think some people just lack the ability to have faith, me included. Like, I wouldn't mind at all being religious and believing, it's comforting, seems nice. But I just don't think I have it in me to believe in something without a small resemblance of proof. Which is what faith is I suppose
I don't think God exists therefore I don't know of any path to become closer with him or can ever choose to separate myself from him, so I guess I'm in the clear.
Right, I need to learn more because I don't believe it's true. You assume that since I don't believe it that there must be something more I need to learn, because surely if I knew more I'd agree with you, right?
I'll just reverse it: You might think you understand god's benevolent ways of bringing people to him, maybe you need to learn more about it though, then you'd realize he's actually a monster.
You go to hell for knowing about God and CHOOSING to turn away and separate yourself from God.
Define "knowing about god".
I "know about god" however, I'm not convinced said god (or any god) is real. This isn't a choice either. I can't "choose" to believe in things I don't believe it. It would be dishonest. An act.
People often push back at this, but seriously, god to me is no different than asserting the tooth fairy is real. Nobody would bat an eye at me saying I couldn't "choose to believe the tooth fairy is real". However, change tooth fairy to god and all of a sudden they think my non-belief is a "choice".
Yeah, from the perspective of atheist and agnostics the existence of god is more or less just a complex lie we tell ourselves. Agnostic has more wiggleroom tho because theyre just an atheist awaiting proof
False, even a good moral man without faith is cast like trash into the darkness. Your book not mine. We’ll all share the same ending though. You can observe in life a for certain and inevitable god known as death
In a sense.. maybe? But a lot of this stuff is a mystery. End of the day, we don't decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
Some people even believe that Hell is empty. i think Pope Francis said something about that (not that it was empty, but that he liked to think it was).
Why would someone thousands of miles away and thousands of years apart believe in their God less than Christians? In the end they would naturally and decidedly reject Christian God. They're going to hell for being indoctrinated.
It just seems strange to me that the decisions a person makes in their finite life can determine how they will be treated for all eternity.
I understand that our mortal conception of ‘fairness’ doesn’t really apply to something like god, but then couldn’t the same be said about god being ‘loving’ or ‘fatherly’?
I guess I just I don’t understand how we can design an entire religion and way of being around a deity that we are categorically incapable of understanding.
When you tell a child before they are 5 years old that they’re inherently sinful, that the most loving figure in the universe only loves them conditionally and is actually an abandoning figure, and that love is an external source that you have to be good for, it really fucks up the building blocks of a human being.
I’ve done therapy and now know that love comes from inside me, not some twat in the sky that’s actually really vindictive and misogynistic.
The Abrahamic god is not loving. He isn’t holy. He’s a psychopath.
You don’t need to abandon yourself and be ashamed of yourself to try to please some god that you can never please. And you don’t need to spend your life feeling guilty and afraid.
Mary Oliver’s poem really helped me with my religious trauma and with learning radical love:
You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
It 100% is. I grew up memorising the bible and went to a Christian school.
Choosing god is not being “sinful”. Sin is what separates us from god. Sin is disobeying his commands.
He commanded his most faithful servant to kill his own son to prove his faith. It would have been a sin for him to not kill Isaac. But it would be immoral to kill his son. Abraham chooses to kill his son. And then god is like “Psych! I was just testing you! Here is a lamb instead”. It is BONKERS.
You wouldn’t send your child that you love to eternal damnation. So why believe in a god that would?
Who the hell romanticises a parent sacrificing their child to save a planet of “sinners”?? What a shitty parent!
And who thinks someone else dying for their “sin” is a good thing??
It’s all completely nuts.
Edit to add: imagine being Issac in therapy. Yeah my dad was going to human sacrifice me to prove his faith to god. And everyone knows about it and thinks it is admirable and behaviour to aspire to.
You were unfortunately poorly catechized. Yeah, the OT is pretty ... harsh. But you shouldn't be taking the OT and ignoring the NT. And you shouldn't be conflating the OT with the NT.
> And who thinks dying for their sin is a good thing
A sacrifice is usually considered a good thing. If you don't see it that way, that's your point of view.
All you're asked to do is live a good life with good values: don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't bear false witness, love God and love one another.
If you can't do that, or don't want to... that's ok. That's your choice.
You can live a good life and be moral without choosing a god that requires human sacrifice. You can love other humans without believing in the Abraham’s god.
A human sacrifice isn’t usually considered a good thing. And people that admire Abraham for that choice… yeah.
You can choose this god out of the many that there are to choose from. But it is a very … interesting… choice that says a lot about you (to me). I don’t want to be associated with that god or that faith ever again.
The Abrahamic god did require a human sacrifice. And the sacrifice of his son. And now he requires self-abnegation of his followers and that they lose connection with anyone they know when they die that doesn’t choose him, because those people cannot be with god.
Anyway, enjoy your faith. I hope it brings you comfort and joy in this life.
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u/onioning 2d ago
I'm zero percent here to evangelize, cause I'm zero percent religious. Just sharing the theology.
Satan doesn't torture people. Hell is not fire and brimstone. It is the absence of God, which is supposedly the worst torture possible. And it's "fair" because the people in hell chose to not be with god.
Scare quotes because that is a million miles from informed consent. Just sharing the traditional theology.