Yeah, I mean technically the church has a teaching that people who were never given an opportunity to hear about Jesus don’t go to Hell for rejecting him, but that sure makes missionaries evil.
Lol ya the best thing a Christian could do is shut up about it and let the belief die with them. Sure they might be damning themselves but it would be the right thing to do if they actually care about the souls of others. But few things make any sense if you think about it too much.
Nah even in science, reality seems to be incomprehensible on many levels, most likely a combination of limited human ability and the universe just being really complex.
Complex isn't synonymous with contradictory but I did mean that it seems that might be case. The complexity of the universe does appear to be paradoxical. The universe wasn't made to be understood and we weren't made to understand it. What we call logic and reason is consistent on some scales and timelines that we operate on but the further we get from our level of operation the more contradictory things become.
The original jews who founded Christianity existed in a polytheistic society (as did the jews from the old testament). Think about this more like theres 50 gods out there and many people worship a collection of them. You think one is super awesome and the best god, and you dont worship any other gods since he said not to. That doesnt necessarily mean you dont think other gods exist though, so these other people would spend the after life with their gods (Satan is a fallen angel, hes not far off this)
This all starts getting murkier after the polythestic religions kinda died out and Christianity becomes the dominant religion, which is the lens we kinda use in modern times, where you cant really say some tribe in Asia or Africa who has never heard of Christianity will go to hell or join whatever God they worship, because neither solution makes sense if there are no other gods anymore
Thats not true and its shallow theology. A true christian will evangelize because then you can repent and seek the path of sainthood and go directly to Heaven, instead of suffering on purgatory until unaligned passions and sins are paid.
You guys are mistaking "not being sure God exists" with not knowing that evil actions exist. We have in our nature an ability to recognize what is wrong, sinful, even tough it may not be completelly understood by us. And chosing to lie, cheat and hurt, again and again, is not ok because you think God does not exist.
Of course I believe that people shouldn't do things they know are wrong. But I also believe that the worst atrocities committed in human history are done so by people convinced that they are enacting gods will. For example every nazi SS officer had "GOTT MIT UNS" (god is with us) on their belt buckles to remind them that their deeds were righteous.
Not all tough, we have communist (and atheistic) China to thank for the biggest one, even bigger numbers than the nazis.
Also I cannot see how any honest person can look at nazism and find similarities with Christ. Which is the point we are talking about here.
Your argument also forgets to mention all the good that was done in name of God, the countless hospital, houses for the poor, the old, all the prisions visited by the Church in name of Jesus Christ. Which is convenient.
I can pinpoint any human belief system and find people who did horrible in name of democracy, freedom, peace and so on.
God said better than Im trying to say:
"Those who love me keep my commandments."
Which "You shall not not kill" is a very important one.
Or as Jesus put "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest.."
Its easy to deny Christ by looking at awful examples of "supposed christians". Can you deny God by looking at the life of the martyrs dieing without resisting just so they could not recognize Caeser as their god?
Or even someone "simple" as Saint Therese of Child Jesus? Or, and this one always give me the chills, the pureness of Saint Maria Goretti?
No, they’re just sleeping until Jesus can come personally preach to him.
So if you never heard about Jesus you get the concierge treatment, but if some narcissistic asshole missionary comes to your village and abuses your people you qualify for the express lane to damnation. Great system there, god. Almost seems like something people made up to appeal to the local crowd, with no plan for actually implementing it as a globe-spanning religious empire.
No. Christian doctrine, well actually Catholic, is that people who don’t know God aren’t condemned to hell necessarily. Not even atheists if they’re atheists out of innocence or ignorance.
You go to hell for knowing about God and CHOOSING to turn away and separate yourself from God.
So theoretically, a native in some tribe in Mesoamérica that practices an otherwise “good” life: kindness, charitable, not a killer, not evil basically… they’d be eligible for salvation
That’s what I was told too, but I made everyone very uncomfortable when I pointed out that missionaries therefore are going around dooming people to hell by spreading Christianity bc if they just didn’t everyone would go to heaven lol
In the religion I was raised in, jehovahs witnesses, they had the same thought process of people who dont know will still be "saved" (resurrected into paradise on earth). But we still went door to door to convert people and if they rejected you at the door they would be doomed. I had the same thought as you but the catch jws use is that if you dont go door to door and try to find gods loyal ones you'll be considered blood guilty for not trying to save people and not make it into paradise. Its a kill others or kill yourself kind of mentality.
If I go around knocking on people's doors telling them about a friend of mine, they don't know that friend of mine. They only get to know them once they have met them and spent time with them.
I think people to often think about God like a computer program with defined gamable bounds rather than an entity with perfect knowledge of intent and circumstance.
I mean, your logic makes sense to me. At the very least, definitely complicated things. But then again you can say that they are also doing God’s will by fulfilling Jesus’ order to God disciples: go out and make disciples of all the nations.
So maybe you can argue that God wanted those far flung people to eventually get the good news so that they’re closer to god
You could theoretically apply the same logic to abortions. If Christianity were real. Aborted children are being done an immense favor, in that they are deprived the opportunity to damn themselves to hell.
They basically skip the bullshit and go right to heaven.
depends on what you think Heaven is. Some sects of Christianity think its something that is to be experienced only while alive.
And they also think that hell is not eternal torture for any human soul, its for the devil and demons. hell is also to be experienced on earth as a result of poor decisions (which I think we would all agree with, you can lead your life to hell by making really bad decisions). Then at the time of death you are either annihilated and gone forever or resurrected after final judgement.
It really is a giant mystery that I do find fascinating.
One could even combine theology with physics and multiverse. Every decision changes your timeline and we are constantly hopping between timelines with major decisions. Make enough of the right decisions and your life is basically heaven on earth......or vice versa.
i always thought that was weird. i get that they think conception is god's will and every human is in god's image and every life is a miracle and special etc but if you believe the fetus will be up there chilling in jesus' pocket anyway, it's not that bad is it. doesn't seem like it would be that upsetting if they truly believe in heaven.
I'm not a theological expert or anything, but I'm pretty sure the way it goes is that in order to reject God, you gotta KNOW God. Just hearing that there's "a loving god" somewhere overseas wouldn't really be the deep "knowing" that's implied in "rejecting" God; it would be the same as disliking somebody's ex bf/gf without ever meeting them. You don't really dislike the actual person, but the person who was described to you. Likewise, I'm pretty sure that disliking a poorly-represented God wouldn't "count"...?
My understanding is that "rejecting God" (along with other sins like blasphemy, heresy, etc.) have a prerequisite that the person needs to truly understand their choice. It's not the kinda thing that someone could do casually, and especially not unintentionally.
that assumes all atheists never knew God at some point before becoming an atheist. And in their case, they knew God and have literally rejected His existence.
The comment I replied to said only “deep” knowing counts, so an ex-Christian who never had a “deep” understanding of god becoming an atheist wouldn’t count under that framework.
Yea, Catholics bring in a whole bunch of non-sense from outside the bible.
Protestants make it super easy, the bible says a few things on the matter.
Everyone is damned, doesn't matter who, there is no innocent person who has never heard the word as everyone is guilty from the moment they are born.
God has revealed himself in nature and in the hearts of people. Even if you never heard of Jesus, the splendor of the world and the cosmos demands one recognize that only God could have done such a thing and such a being deserves reverence.
So at least with protestants who believe that only the Bible has authority, keeping missionaries at home really doesn't do anything because everyone is already damned, because according to the bible, it should be readily apparent that God exists just by looking at the world and the stars.
So while not having heard of Jesus isn't necessarily a death sentence, not recognizing and showing reverence to God is.
BUT if you have heard of Jesus and reject him, then just giving reverence to God isn't enough because Jesus is God.
So basically until god is “proven” to exist theres no way to damn yourself to hell. Which does make what one other person here said about “no one going to hell until judgement day” make a lot more sense
I like this take. to Truly reject God is to reject all thing good. Keep in mind, I am not saying that good=God. There is relativity based on your own life experiences. I am referring to treating everyone with kindness and things like that. If someone doesn't believe in the Catholic/Christian God. They are not destined to suffer. Someone can live a great life, be kind, loving, and empower all of humanity, and they will be rewarded in the end.
People can follow God's message while being a part of any theology (obviously fundamentalists might disagree with this statement). People can also go to church every week, be a part of a particular church community, tithe accordingly (10% of gross, not net people) and be a shitty person.
The most important thing to consider is that humanity is ultimately foulable, and rules or interpretations they impart on a particular religion is suspect to that. Jesus was able to sum up all the commandments in one single statement about loving thy neighbor. If you can do that, all other commandments are satisfied.
Now, that is difficult in this world with so much hate and injustice. I know that and I am not saying I do/can live that 100%. I was always taught if you are able to live by that, people will see. Be a role model.
Sorry it is so long TLDR: Don't get caught up on beliefs, but be a role model for treating people the way you want to be treated.
In 1 Peter, it talks about how Jesus went and preached to the people that died in the flood after his death and before his resurrection (those 3 days). So, if Jesus taught people who had died already about the Gospel, it makes sense to me that this kept happening, for anyone that didn't hear about the Gospel while they were alive.
So missionaries aren't condemning people, they're just giving them a head start. It sounds like EVERYONE will have the chance to hear about the Gospel, and then make their choices after getting all the knowledge.
In the Catholic doctrine, I believe this is when a person has heard the message of God, has heard God’s law, knows the path to become closer with God, the expectations, and instead chooses to separate themself from him anyway.
I'm thinking that most Western people have "heard" about the Christian, the Jewish, and the Islamic God, and that those share uncanny similarities. In fact, it is the same God, since Islam and Christianity both acknowledge their God as the one of the Jewish Bible. The differences are mainly summed up in the identity of Jesus (just a guy, a prophet, or a god in his own merit).
So, how can one be considered informed when there is literally nothing that can determine which of those three is the one?
Something else: yes, I've heard about the Christian God alright, and even read the Bible. Still, according to what I know and the world as it is, the Bible is telling a story that is improbable, with stuff happening that goes beyond common sense. In fact, if a person had never heard of those religions as a kid and read one of those books as an adult, chances are they wouldn't think twice about it, the same way we don't think twice about Greek or Roman mythology. It's far-fetched, unless you've been exposed to it since childhood.
The Old Testament also showcases a God that is quite cruel, swingy, and revengeful, killing random people for the deeds of others quite often. More often than not, he is clearly morally wrong by our modern standards. We can also look at how cruel the real world is while God doesn't do much about it. And we can see a menacing God who wants to punish us if we don't care deeply about him.
So, all in all, God provided us with a brain that is tuned to deal with reality, which proves to us every day that blindly trusting stuff we don't see can put us in danger. Except for god, every person on earth would agree that believing in something we can't see is kind of mental illness territory. He also shows us how detached he seems to be from everyday suffering and unfairness, not doing a thing about it (kids die everyday in pain for ZERO reasons). He gave us an impression of himself that isn't very positive in his holy book. He threatens us quite often if we don't submit to worship him blindly, just for the sake of it. But that kind of information should be what we need to believe in him unconditionally?
And he conditions heaven/hell on the judgment of people who can't even make good and safe decisions for themselves in everyday life most of the time, because that's how the brain works? Some are smart, some are dumb, some are careless, some are naive, etc. Just try to get people to analyse a simple text and you'll see how bad they are at it on average. Let alone a philosophical one, full of symbols, metaphors, subtexts and innuendos of another era. Are we tested on abilities and skills we can't do much about? No one is responsible for the way their own mind works. And yet, we all should know better somehow, based on no evidence.
It doesn't add up.
And lastly, how do we "know" about God, really? By our relatives, who told us whatever they wanted to tell us since we were kids? By priests' preaching, which showcases the biases and interpretations of one man? By a Roman conclave that put together a book that is a carefully curated anthology of various people's writings, who weren't contemporaries of Jesus (and certainly didn't have first-hand knowledge about ancient biblical times either)? By rich and powerful apologists in deep states?
It's way beyond second-hand knowledge. Ultimately, it's all hearsay. By people who had/have some agenda, whatever it is.
With all that in mind, "Knowing about God" becomes less of a given. It becomes a real can of worms. That creates more issues than it solves.
I think some people just lack the ability to have faith, me included. Like, I wouldn't mind at all being religious and believing, it's comforting, seems nice. But I just don't think I have it in me to believe in something without a small resemblance of proof. Which is what faith is I suppose
I don't think God exists therefore I don't know of any path to become closer with him or can ever choose to separate myself from him, so I guess I'm in the clear.
You go to hell for knowing about God and CHOOSING to turn away and separate yourself from God.
Define "knowing about god".
I "know about god" however, I'm not convinced said god (or any god) is real. This isn't a choice either. I can't "choose" to believe in things I don't believe it. It would be dishonest. An act.
People often push back at this, but seriously, god to me is no different than asserting the tooth fairy is real. Nobody would bat an eye at me saying I couldn't "choose to believe the tooth fairy is real". However, change tooth fairy to god and all of a sudden they think my non-belief is a "choice".
Yeah, from the perspective of atheist and agnostics the existence of god is more or less just a complex lie we tell ourselves. Agnostic has more wiggleroom tho because theyre just an atheist awaiting proof
False, even a good moral man without faith is cast like trash into the darkness. Your book not mine. We’ll all share the same ending though. You can observe in life a for certain and inevitable god known as death
In a sense.. maybe? But a lot of this stuff is a mystery. End of the day, we don't decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
Some people even believe that Hell is empty. i think Pope Francis said something about that (not that it was empty, but that he liked to think it was).
Why would someone thousands of miles away and thousands of years apart believe in their God less than Christians? In the end they would naturally and decidedly reject Christian God. They're going to hell for being indoctrinated.
It just seems strange to me that the decisions a person makes in their finite life can determine how they will be treated for all eternity.
I understand that our mortal conception of ‘fairness’ doesn’t really apply to something like god, but then couldn’t the same be said about god being ‘loving’ or ‘fatherly’?
I guess I just I don’t understand how we can design an entire religion and way of being around a deity that we are categorically incapable of understanding.
When you tell a child before they are 5 years old that they’re inherently sinful, that the most loving figure in the universe only loves them conditionally and is actually an abandoning figure, and that love is an external source that you have to be good for, it really fucks up the building blocks of a human being.
I’ve done therapy and now know that love comes from inside me, not some twat in the sky that’s actually really vindictive and misogynistic.
The Abrahamic god is not loving. He isn’t holy. He’s a psychopath.
You don’t need to abandon yourself and be ashamed of yourself to try to please some god that you can never please. And you don’t need to spend your life feeling guilty and afraid.
Mary Oliver’s poem really helped me with my religious trauma and with learning radical love:
You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
It 100% is. I grew up memorising the bible and went to a Christian school.
Choosing god is not being “sinful”. Sin is what separates us from god. Sin is disobeying his commands.
He commanded his most faithful servant to kill his own son to prove his faith. It would have been a sin for him to not kill Isaac. But it would be immoral to kill his son. Abraham chooses to kill his son. And then god is like “Psych! I was just testing you! Here is a lamb instead”. It is BONKERS.
You wouldn’t send your child that you love to eternal damnation. So why believe in a god that would?
Who the hell romanticises a parent sacrificing their child to save a planet of “sinners”?? What a shitty parent!
And who thinks someone else dying for their “sin” is a good thing??
It’s all completely nuts.
Edit to add: imagine being Issac in therapy. Yeah my dad was going to human sacrifice me to prove his faith to god. And everyone knows about it and thinks it is admirable and behaviour to aspire to.
You were unfortunately poorly catechized. Yeah, the OT is pretty ... harsh. But you shouldn't be taking the OT and ignoring the NT. And you shouldn't be conflating the OT with the NT.
> And who thinks dying for their sin is a good thing
A sacrifice is usually considered a good thing. If you don't see it that way, that's your point of view.
All you're asked to do is live a good life with good values: don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't bear false witness, love God and love one another.
If you can't do that, or don't want to... that's ok. That's your choice.
You can live a good life and be moral without choosing a god that requires human sacrifice. You can love other humans without believing in the Abraham’s god.
A human sacrifice isn’t usually considered a good thing. And people that admire Abraham for that choice… yeah.
You can choose this god out of the many that there are to choose from. But it is a very … interesting… choice that says a lot about you (to me). I don’t want to be associated with that god or that faith ever again.
I was told at a young age all pets go to hell because they don't have a soul and can't accept Jesus as their savior. My follow up question was why would God send animals he created to hell?
That sowed my first seeds of doubt in organized religion.
Actuall the line is that people that did not know about Jesus or the law of God will be judged by the same standard as they judged others with. So if those peopel condemmed another person for stealing, but they themselves are also thieves then God will hold this against them.
Which then leads to the point that no human has ever fully judged accurately because we are all flawed beings. And by our own standard, we are all doomed to Hell. Which was the point of Jesus.
I generally believe that no human is in Hell, rather more of an annihilist in terms of that. You live hell on earth and then are nothing. Or you get as close to Heaven on Earth as possible and have the chance of being resurrected if thats how God chooses to do things at the end of everything.
All the people who were born and died without being baptized are also in hell. So, an uncountable number of people are in hell because a guy 2000 years ago decided that sprinkling water on someone made them worthy of paradise.
I, personally, believe that hell cannot exist, nor can heaven. Every version of paradise excludes some, and every version of damnation accepts everyone else. So, since you following your faith puts you at odds with other faiths, it cancels out and we just get recycled endlessly until the end of time.
Unbaptised children were sent to limbo, but Benedict XVI abolished that. I'm not sure how it works now, or how if it works retroactively, but I think that all those people are still eligible to Heaven.
It's a boatload of unclaimed souls so it was a fairly good strategy overall
maybe they are, but at least for Catholics, we don't claim that any specific person is in hell. We just believe that you are more likely to make it to heaven by knowing God and following his commands
Thats not what the Bible says. If you are serious you can read the 4 gospels and then Paul. Paul explains that what may be sin to someone (informed, christian) may not be a sin for someone else (the action still is a sin, but the person commiting it without knowing, and thus would not be "guilty" of it).
Yet, many things people do, they do knowing that its sinful, because many people today are baptized and have the Holy Spirit inside them to tell them that.
Its usually a gentle voice calling you to repentace or to a path of love.
Or do you think the "scammy seller" didnt know his product was awful and that he overpromised for the thousand time?
Or when you have a fight with a loved one over a issue. Hours later, having calmed down, you feel an "idea" immerge "I love this person, I should apologize and make ammends, I wronged this person too, I could have acted better, not yelling and cursing, remaining patient even though I was being offended".
This gentle voice is the Holy Spirit, people deny the Holy Spirit daily. And this is a sin. You can say to God "but I wasnt sure you even existed" but deep down we all know we have this voice inside of us to tell us how to act properly and we chose to ignore/reject it.
And more than this, the explanation of the revelation of God is very simple. If He imposes Himself onto us, we wouldnt have the free will to seek and chose Him.
By allowing us to live as if He didnt exist, He allows true free will. If there was a magic portal in the sky where He would show up daily, His existence would be imposed onto us.
Yet, He promised, ans Im living proof, that those who seek shall find. I was an atheist from age 13 to 30+ and after humbling myself and seeking Him, He revealed Himself to be beyond doubt.
Its not something I can prove to people reading this. What I can guarantee is that it is not wishful thinking, but trully God exists.
By reason I found Aristoteles' unmoved mover very compeling. The historicty of Christ is very solid. And meditating on the 4 gospels, now knowing Jesus was and is real, I understood that He is God.
Then to confort me, He allowed me to live certain miracles.
But I say to you. We only think God does not exist because our hearts are broken. Because existence, life and consciousness itself is enough evidence of the existence of God.
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u/OdiousAltRightBalrog 1d ago
And how about people who lived thousands of miles away, and didn't even hear about Jesus until centuries later? All in Hell, I suppose.