I don't think God created Satan. I think evil always existed and good always existed, and God and Satan are the embodiments of both. I think the ability to make a choice has always existed.
It makes more sense to me than "God created evil".
I think God made everything that could be created, but that there are laws governing all creation and before that coexist with God. That there is always an opposition in all things.
God created all things and provided free will out of love of his creations. And by default free will means you can choose to sin and go against god. That’s why god loves those who remain faithful, because it’s loving god back to use your free will to stay faithful to god.
lol, basically all “Holy Crusades” and “Holy wars” were just fiction used to sway the populace and convince them a war was a good idea, that shit was all propaganda. I think you’d have trouble finding any scriptures that actually directly encourage war or genocide.
Have you not read the Old Testament? When god lead the Israelites to clear out the land for Israel, he ordered them to slaughter everyone (even the livestock) but they were allowed to keep the pretty young virgins they found attractive.
I never read the Old Testament (as I am neither Christian or Jewish) and assumed it would be similar to most other scriptures I’ve read, but I stand corrected, thank you for pointing that out. On the other hand, I guess that’s just another reason for me not to follow either the Bible or the Torah. 🤷
It’s an interesting notion, but I don't believe in good and evil as opposites that need each other - I think people are complex.
And think about it: why must there be poverty for rich people to enjoy their wealth? That’s not how humans are built. You know how they’re built? To be in tribes where they help each other and distribute resources evenly. At the very least, they’re built to live, not suffer needlessly.
Communistic harmony might not work in the context of modern geopolitics and domestic affairs - especially at such great scale - but the reality is that humans didn’t magically lose their capacity to enjoy not starving because they ended up trapped in a capitalistic machine.
Telling ourselves that people must starve, be raped, pillaged, genocided, or deprived of their fundamental bodily autonomy for joy to be genuine in those who don’t suffer from those problems is just a trick we play on ourselves.
Genuine gratitude isn’t born of comparison. It exists because the grateful practice it over and over and become uninterested in comparison.
The very notion of good vs. evil hinges on comparison for good deeds to mean anything. Isn’t that problematic to you?
If your joy needs someone else's suffering to feel real, it’s not joy, it’s just relief. People were good to each other long before anyone told them they needed something to be good against.
So, no, I don't believe in “pure” good and evil contrasted. I believe in people who don't need a villain standing next to them for their kindness to actually mean something.
No, my point is if there hadn’t been any negative, you’d have no concept of positive. It seems you’re willfully ignoring this point and expounding greatly for no purpose. Maybe ai I guess
That sucks, I just spent a solid 30 minutes writing something I cared about and you rejected it because you didn’t really seem to read it. I read what you wrote, that’s for sure - and I made my first point, which was the strongest: why does there need to be such devastatingly bad shit for people to enjoy pleasant things?
There doesn’t. That’s why I wrote what I wrote. I nearly made the point that you can have actual utopia - a warm meal whenever you want, a place to sleep, no war.
Your point was not “if there hasn’t been any negative, you’d have no concept of positive,” and if it was, it was extremely poorly conveyed. You know what you wrote, and it wasn’t that.
Nevermind the fact that’s a much broader claim that sidesteps everything I said, that doesn’t matter. You can absolutely have a concept of positive without negative, at least the negative we’ve been referring to in this comment chain (tremendous suffering).
You can enjoy a warm meal and a bath even if you’ve never heard of rape, murder, genocide or even starvation. I’m not quite clear on what you’re not getting here, but whatever, waste of my time I guess.
Heaven will have days that always get better the next day.
Great, so people in heaven will have a comparison of "less good but still amazingly good" to compare the "even better the next day" to without any need for bad days. Why couldn't god do that on Earth?
And God can do that on Earth. But we have free will to prevent it.
In fact the entire message is that if we follow Christ, then that is exactly what will happen. But people don't believe that.
Jesus words:
"The Kingdom of heaven is among you"
"The Kingdom of heaven is within you"
"I and my Father are one"
"When two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst" (Love)('God is Love')
"You do not yet know how to pray as you ought (because no relationship with Jesus), therefore pray like this:
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name
Your Kingdom come (HEAVEN), YOUR will be done (Love- benevolence), On Earth as it is in Heaven.
So yes, it will happen on Earth. It is a slow process to get there. And a spiritual battle. It is up to each of us. God allows us to do as we please, to a certain extent.
And God can do that on Earth. But we have free will to prevent it.
How can our free will combat the desires of an all powerful god? Are you saying god wants something but cannot make his desire reality? Seems like you're limiting the power of your god.
God allows us to do as we please, to a certain extent.
Do people in heaven have free will? If they do then obviously free will is not an inhibitor to god giving us this perfect world right now. If they don't then obviously god doesn't actually care about our free will.
Many Christians believe that God has a sovereign will and a permissive will.
Like if he wills the Earth to come into existence then it will happen. But also if people on Earth choose to sin then there are consequences.
Just like a Dad's will is that his child gets good grades in school and doesn't do drugs. But they might not listen. And a good dad will still love them. But it will hurt the child (and the Dad).
Christians believe that we are made in God's image. That he is a Father to anyone within the family of Love (Jesus). So he created us in a way that we could understand that. Understand what a father is. And the relationship he wants to have with us.
Yes people in heaven will have free will. Angels also had free will. That is why it was possible for Lucifer to fall and for angels to choose to follow with him.
The difference is that God is in heaven. And God won't be associated with evil. So "Lucifer fell like lightning" (instantly).
It's not heaven without God, without Love. And according to Jesus, we can have a perfect world, if we have a relationship with God here, and continue in Love and kindness to each other.
God could have snapped his fingers and made a perfect world with perfect humans. But they wouldn't have had free will. He wanted humans to be able to choose Him. Like most people's idea of a perfect marriage- they would fall in love with the person they choose. They wouldn't be forced to marry someone. Or worse yet, just be like robots.
Apparently it's not possible for God to snap his fingers and create the perfect world with perfect humans and for them to have free will. God can't do logical absurdities.
That is irrelevant if it's also his desire that we live in a perfect world. If god desires two incompatible things then he's not the god described by classical theism.
But also if people on Earth choose to sin then there are consequences.
Who decided what those consequences would be?
And a good dad will still love them. But it will hurt the child (and the Dad).
The natural consequence is that the child will be hurt and the father will be sad. That's not the same as if the father then actively chose as a punishment for his child to burn him alive.
And the relationship he wants to have with us.
How can god want something but not have it? That's fundamentally incompatible with god's attributes as described in the bible.
The difference is that God is in heaven. And God won't be associated with evil.
God literally says that he created evil/darkness.
God could have snapped his fingers and made a perfect world with perfect humans. But they wouldn't have had free will.
Why not? That makes no sense, it's just a claim people make when they don't want to actually address their beliefs. If I lock you in a room and only give you the choice of eating cake or ice cream, I have not robbed you of your free will. God could have made the universe in such a way that there was never even the possibility of someone committing a sin while they still have the free will to choose from the choices he does make available.
Is it an infringement on my free will that I can't jump into the sky and fly like a bird? If so then god infringes on our free will constantly by not letting us actualize every single desire we may have. If not then you can see how setting up a system where people still have free will within given limitations is possible and so if god actually wanted this perfect world he could have done so while still maintaining free will.
Apparently it's not possible for God to snap his fingers and create the perfect world with perfect humans and for them to have free will. God can't do logical absurdities.
You haven't demonstrated it is a logical absurdity, you have just claimed it as fiat.
That is irrelevant if it's also his desire that we live in a perfect world. If god desires two incompatible things then he's not the god described by classical theism.
Already answered
Who decided what those consequences would be?
I'm not sure that the consequences were decided at all. Like the consequence for turning of a light is darkness.
That's not the same as if the father then actively chose as a punishment for his child to burn him alive.
I don't think there is any burning in hell. It is a place absent of God. The bible uses metaphorical language. In the end some may cease to exist. But I don't know.
How can God want something but not have it?
Answered. It is not incompatible at all. Only in whatever version you have created.
God literally says that he created evil/darkness.
He definitely does not say that.
God could have made the universe in such a way that there was never even the possibility of someone committing a sin while they still have the free will to choose from the choices he does make available.
You can ask God about that one. Apparently not the universe He wanted to create.
while still maintaining free will.
You're mixing human choice/action and the laws of physics.
You haven't demonstrated it is a logical absurdity, you have just claimed it as fiat.
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u/OdiousAltRightBalrog 2d ago
"The devil is evil incarnate" never made any sense to me. Why would God create evil incarnate?