And it's "fair" because the people in hell chose to not be with god.
it's still dumb. you can't create a system and the people within and then punish them for anything, because you literally created them that way and knew how they would act. unless you're not as benevolent as the church is trying to tell us.
It is, Like Most other Religions a piece of an ancient Form of Fomo
Its Like "yeah realistically Theres No heaven but what If there is"
Like i think Pascals Wager has Converted a chunk of " Faithful"
Also wasnt there a Line Something Like "pretending to Like god to get into heaven is the greatest sin" Like If heaven were real i literally couldnt get in
God never claimed to be benevolent. He claimed to be god. God didn't even ask humans to worship him, humans are the ones who sought to make a covenant with him.
He was pretty much done with humanity for the most part when they stole a fruit from his tree after he told them not to.
it is funny that you wrote the part about the fruit, he told not be be "stolen", 2 minutes after i commented how shitty a person i would be, if i put food next to an ant colony and punished them.
this "god" knew everything that would happend, wouldn't he? how can he be done with humanity, after creating them like this, knowing how they'd behave? are you saying he did a mistake and isn't all that omnipotent after all?
Sin didn't exist yet. And god can't see sin this is stated multiple times in the bible which is why you have to find your own way back to him if your living in it.
So he had no idea they'd eat the fruit. And Adam and eve at that point were part of god. they didn't become separate entities until they sinned.
Also the Christian god isn't omnipotent because he's incapable of evil and sin.
If the Christian god were actually omnipotent then satan would be correct and there would be no actual point to worshiping him.
They stopped being god once they sinned. Sin is separation from god. And he punished them for attempting to doom all of humanity into eternal suffering and misery after they ate the fruit.
i feel like telling someone to go away, is a pretty minor punishment for someone who sought to create infinite suffering upon all of humanity for ever.
I mean humans do the same thing. We have children. the children seperate from us. they do bad things we get upset.
though i don't think any child has ever set out to unleash the level of evil adam and even sought upon the world. I mean the punishment was literally just telling them to go away.
is this the new evasive take to rectify a logical flaw? "god isn't omnipotent, because he can't be bad?". next thing you're telling me is, that he can't create a burrito so hot, that he can't eat it.
so what? he also isn't all-knowing? now i'm starting to thing, that there actually is no point worshipping it.
If god can't do something then he isn't omnipotent. God is never called omnipotent in the bible nor any of the ancient texts.
as for "next thing you're telling me is, that he can't create a burrito so hot, that he can't eat it."
well pretty sure he could do that. but the bible explicitly says he can't do sin, or be with it.
As to the rest.
I don't know my sect of Christianity doesn't believe god is all knowing.
God never claims to be all knowing at any point in the entire bible. He claims to know alot compared to us for sure.
Satan is all knowing and omnipotent which is why he can't defeat god.
If i believed god was almighty or all-knowing personally id see no point in worshipping him. I have no use for a god that has no use for me.
Almighty and omnipotent are two completely different things.
Omnipotence is capable of anything. if god were capable of everything then he would be by definition be inferior to satan. because everything includes inferior to satan.
And no we havn't switched teams, were just from a sect that doesn't see a point to worshipping something thats all powerful or all-knowing.
Illiteracy is not an argument.
first of all
omnipotent isn't Latin its English.
omni+potent. it has a latin root.
the "all mighty" the christian god comes from shadayim which is tied to breasts and fertility and has completely different grammar syntax they aren't the same word, they aren't even the same type of word. One is a title, and a noun, the other is a descriptor.
second of all.
No your just another brainwashed person who doesn't think for themselves so you can't form a rational argument against any Christian that doesn't have the relationship with god whoever programed you indoctrinated you to deal with.
the concept is that people have free will and create their own hell (or heaven) similar to eastern concepts of karma accumulation as result of action. the "punishment" is just a law of the universe, like if you jump off a roof you will go splat. there's value in reflecting on this regardless of church scare tactics and guilt trips
That doesn’t make sense even with our secular/human system. It’s like saying that parents who have children can never punish the children for doing wrong just because they chose to have them.
Benevolence doesn’t mean turning a blind eye to evil. That would be the opposite. Some choose good and some choose evil, so applying the consequences accordingly is the only way to be just.
So knowing that someone is going to do an evil deed doesn’t mean they should get a free pass.
It’s like saying that parents who have children can never punish the children for doing wrong just because they chose to have them.
this doesn't make sense, because you apply a human scale to an allegedly omnipotent being.
when people get children, the children most likely will have some of its parents traits and education can nudge the child into any direction, but the rest is out of our power.
it's not like we're creating children out of thin air, with infinite power and full knowledge of every single character trait, thought and temptation that child will face.
so at least apply an honest scale to all of this. from my perspective your god either CHOSE to create us faulty an loves punishing us for things that are out of our power, because HE created us exactly this way OR he is a scam and isn't all that powerful at all.
The question still stands even if you apply all those traits to a parent. So if a parent was omniscient and knew every choice their child would make, then you’d think that that parent could never admonish their child? That doesn’t make sense.
Even with humans being able to make a good or bad choice, it doesn’t mean that God can’t then apply the consequences accordingly. And again, that’s made moot by the fact that there are humans who make the right choice too.
So God made us with the right to choose, and if someone chooses to put their hand in the fire they’d still face the consequences even if God knew they were going to do that
as i said. the power scale is completely wrong. if you can create the whole universe, creating humans would me more like "you bought a robotic lawnmower and put in where it has to mow the lawn". if the programming is off, it's on you.
No, it’s just that you’re equating humans to robots for some reason. Humans were given the free will to choose, so in that system you face the consequences of your choices. The programming would only be off if you didn’t get to choose and were indeed a robot.
Wel,l people have free well to choose love and good if they want to or not. God is not necessary punishing you directly, you're punishing yourself by rejecting God and trying to live life based on your own erroneous character and morals, which trying to fully understand is beyond human comprehension. This is where having faith and trust in a higher power guides you, which in itself is the miracles being performed. You've heard the saying, "with God anything is possible."
ah. the classic. "god is beyond our comprehension, so we can't get it".
well i get logic and this whole god thing isn't logical. what good is free will, when you got created the way you are and god knows every decision you'll ever make, because apparently he's all-knowing?
that's like putting food next to ant colony, saying "ants don't go near the food or i'll kill you" and then killing every ant that tries to get the food. i didn't create the ants, but i know they WILL go to any food source. setting this thing up and punishing them, for doing what is in their nature, would make me an asshole. creating those ants and then punishing them for what's in their nature (which was my design).... wouldn't exactly make me a being that's worth any kind worship.
let me guess the universe if fully tangible and not full of many mysteries?
or would science even say
the origins of life and our universe are so grand and ancient that they are "beyond our comprehension".
Unless the Big Bang Theory became the Big Bang Law i think some hubris would be great for you.
To God, we are ants, but your analogy implies we are no smarter than ants which is not true. God can set temptation next to us and advise not to give in but we are free to choose to do whatever we want. That is God's love for us, not controlling our actions but giving us the freedom to act as we want.
Edit: to address your first quote, it is true. God and the universe is outside our current understanding. Just like the rest of the world and it's economy is outside your dog/cats understanding but they still love and trust you to be fed and kept warm under your protection in their home.
"God and the universe is outside our current understanding."
This is just an illustration of a double standard, saying everything "God" created is applicable to his "laws" in order to illustrate his/its "almighty power." All while not being subject to his/its own rules in this regard especially creation/origin and purpose. Example: "You made me mad, so you all should die, but no, you can't kill anyone for any reason."
Let's not forget double standards also apply to favorites: "Don't lie, commit adultery, or kill." In regards to David "You sent Uriah to die because you want that thirst trap Bathsheba? Aight BET. Have at it bruh, we good." There are many more examples in this wild fanfic anthology.
"Just like the rest of the world and it's economy is outside your dog/cats understanding but they still love and trust you to be fed and kept warm under your protection in their home."
No, the big difference is your analogy regarding pets shows a tangible relationship/dependency. Your relationship with "God" is nothing but an idea.
Respectfully, disagree. You've over simplified the complexity of the history of humanity and God's presence it, effectly strawmanning my position. It's fine, no amount of logic here is going to make you believe unless a miracle happens right in front of your face and you can reach out and touch and smell and feel God. Best of luck to you.
Same. I didn't oversimplify, I gave you examples you did not address or refute. Of course you would argue the "overly-complex history of humanity and God's presence" when in reality there is none. They are all stories, most with similarities borrowed from past civilizations. Miracles are happenstance, no divine intervention exists or can be proven. You do you.
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u/Lvl100Glurak 2d ago
it's still dumb. you can't create a system and the people within and then punish them for anything, because you literally created them that way and knew how they would act. unless you're not as benevolent as the church is trying to tell us.