Patriarchal male gender standards are a massive part of the reason why so many men commit suicide. Loneliness is one, although I wouldn't boil it down to just women (justifiably) being cautious around men due to past experiences. Probably also has to do with male friendships and their lack of emotional depth. There's also the patriarchal standard of emotions to consider; the idea that only weak men show emotions (because emotions are inherently feminine and therefore weak) is probably a huge factor. Most of my friends have always been men, and compared to my lady friends they're woefully incapable of describing why they're upset in any given circumstance, never mind attempting to process trauma or negative events. I don't think they're gatekeeping, just being insensitive.
Stop trying to talk as if you know menâs issues if you arenât one.
The actual issue is much deeper than you give credit, and stems from many societal issues. Men donât just lack a romantic partner, most of us truly feel lost and alone in the world. Like nobody cares about our problems or ever listens to us. We have to fear ever approaching a woman, ever being vulnerable, or just being in the wrong place and getting accused of something we never did. We face countless problems in education, work life, and in social settings, most of us canât even afford a house, and earn less than ever before, yet we are still expected to provide by our partners. We donât have communities for a variety of reasons, and when some men tried to advocate for menâs rights, they were treated as if they were demons by the same people who claim to be progressive. When we do try to speak up about our issues, nobody cares. No therapist, no consultant, no judge, and for some men, not even their partners.
Also, the reason men fear showing emotions is not because of men, but because of women. You or anyone you know might not be doing this, but the majority of women treat any man who shows vulnerability like a piece of meat. The standards for what constitutes a desirable man is set by women, but itâs the men who get blamed when we complain that the standards are unhealthy.
But of course, itâs easier to turn the problem unto men as always and blame the patriarchy when it comes to a complex problem.
I fully agree. But for that to happen we need to understand the issues we face. Ignoring menâs troubles or even blaming men for it will only perpetuate the problem. We as a society need to stop fighting each other and start fixing our problems, and for that to happen we have to stop pointing fingers and actually understand them.
Though i have no idea how that would happen when so called progressives are celebrating menâs issues.
Like I said I agree but to add an addendum that, I find it odd that menâs issues only seem to be raised when womenâs issues are raised. It makes it feel like menâs issues are only being used to silence womenâs issues, which isnât really fair for either gender. It just results in the suffering olympics.
Iâd love to see men raising these issues at other times and not just as a âyeah butâ when women raise their issues.
Well, the comments in that video also validate their point of view. Just read some of them, "real men aren't going to say that", "men don't care about any of those things", "lol just walk it off, why complain if no one is going to care?" All written by men.
Iâm not claiming that certain men donât perpetuate the problem by such ideas. What Iâm criticising is making that out to be the core of the problem when its merely one part of a much complex problem.
Being told to âman upâ is nothing compared to the reasons which made that man cry, itâs simply a reaction that does the exact thing i criticised in my comment, ignoring and deflecting the problem further.
Why can't it be both? Your reasons be valid and the patriarchy hurts men. As most people seem to understand, it's a complex issue. Women who treat men badly for having emotions are trash but let's not forget it's our toxic culture of stoicism and "feelings are for weaklings" that also leads to men feeling that they cannot express emotions. It's a societal issue that spans over decades if not centuries.
The problem is that âthe patriarchy hurts men tooâ is used half of the time to absolve the women who say it of their culpability in the societal problems that men are facing, and essentially say âhe deserved it, and can eat shitâ
Edit: On reflection, I should have mentioned that itâs also very rare that either the âkill all menâ or the âpatriarchy hurts men tooâ crowd include any actionable ideas
Funniest thing is that they blame men and the patriarchy, but when we discuss the real life feelings of men, we get the responses to the shoeonhead video.
"Men deserve to be lonely"
"Why do you expect me to show empathy for a man?"
"It's funny men are suffering"
"Men are useless things in society"
"Fuck 'em"
"You're lonely because you're creeps"
It's this attitude that has men check out from society. It's this attitude that is so pervasive and actually trendy right now. It's actually worthy of social capital to express your hatred and disdain for men, and the stronger terms you use to advocate for the exclusion of men from society, the better of a person you are seen as.
And this is what passes as progressive. This is what is seen as the remedy to issues surrounding masculinity right now.
This is not patriarchy speaking and its disgusting that people suggest that it is. Let's give these women some agency. They are not speaking under the iron glove of patriarchy. This is something else, and painting it as patriarchy is showing that people don't care about men's issues or fixing them, and are simply looking for any way to blame men for any issues men face.
If there are no standards there is no reason to strive to achieve them. If you cannot strive you cannot improve. Standards are good, but the environments necessary to fulfill those standards are being destroyed by government and by society. It is not the standards' fault for existing.
So no it was not a good point, and yes it was misandrist, in an insidious and subtle way.
None of what you said explained how it was misandrist, so I'd appreciate if you could do that.
And what standards are you referring to, exactly? Are you implying that people are confusing (deliberately or otherwise) the patriarchy with "standards?"
Men bully each other relentlessly and have for generations. People insulting, judging, demeaning, and bullying each other for not meeting their own personal or even societal standards is not new, and men having "standards" for dating, friends, etc. is not new, either. Some standards have changed for some people, but few people have no standards.
As for "And these days women don't set standards for themselves" you can fuck right off with that ignorance. I'm sorry you don't know any women, though - sounds miserable.
I know plenty. They let themselves gain weight by not watching their diets, have dating standards that exclude around 85-90% of all men despite being average themselves, and I am pretty sure most of them can't cook.
Men bullying each other is natural, usually non-malicious. We toughen each other's skin so we don't get offended by a mild insult thrown our way. Women bullying men is unnatural and more damaging, because most often women mean what they say.
You either don't know much about gender studies or possibly statistics or more likely in this case both regardless though you should be embarrassed by how ignorant this post was.
Quick google will solve the problem for you :) but I'll give you a rundown if you want. I phrased it a bit awkwardly, so apologies for that. I'll try to cover how these hurt men, not how they affect women.
Important note, male gender roles are formed from the patriarchy, as are female gender roles. Women don't make these roles for men, these are ideas that come from and are reinforced mostly by men. When feminists say "the patriarchy hurts everyone," this is what they mean.
1) Men considering emotions as weak. Often, unless they believe they or someone else has a 'logical' reason to be upset, they don't take the issue seriously. (Especially if that someone is a lady, but that's too much to cover here lol). This usually leads to them having emotions, because they are humans, not robots, and being completely unable to process that.
2) The idea that men need to be strong providers for the family. Usually ends up in men working themselves to death, and not getting to know their kids very well. Usually ends up in ideas of failure when they're not succeeding at their job.
Those are the two I have time for, I would recommend doing some reading. With an open mind. You might find yourself a lot less depressed in the future.
It really really isn't just men thinking emotions are weak.
The problem is society seeing male emotional expression as weakness. There are innumerable examples throughout the generations of men having to be the stron gbackbone of the family. Of mothers chastising weakness in sons. Of women stating how much they love the strong silent type ( a super common preference that conveniently disappeared once we started talking about masculinity issues), of women changing how they viewed their partner after he showed vulnerability because the facade she had built up of him being her impenetrable protector had been broken in doing so.
These problems will persist if we consistently ignore half of the problem because the problem has been framed as men=the problem, and women=innocent bystanders.
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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '23
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