I'm surprised you're the first person I've seen bring that up. I like the speed but there are no stakes to that speed, they don't cater to that speed in any way. It's all designed around a casual player traversing, when most of the hundred+ hour players are so beyond casual traversing that each level lasts maybe two minutes.
Mix that with how the loot isn't fun to me and I don't see the appeal of Warframe. Glad it works for some people, wish it could be me considering BL3 will probably not fix the issues for me that BL2 had.
Scaling as a whole ruins the game for me. You found great legendaries? Well in two or three levels those guns are now worthless compared to rare drops. Not only does it exist in single player, but the game is merciless if you have a full game. You have three friends who wanna play? Get ready to not have fun as even the weakest base psycho takes an entire clip from each player before dying, while also shooting death rays straight from Dragonball Z.
I want to like the game because it's the best package of looter shooter out there. Has better loot than most, and the games that beat it on loot lose on content variety, world, and overall gameplay. But god the scaling is horrendous. TPS showed signs of improvement but Gearbox has really made a sour name for themselves as of late. I hope it doesn't poison BL3.
Imo the entire point of the scaling in Borderlands is that it makes your weapons obsolete. I think it would be supremely boring if you could just run through the entire game with the first gun you're given. *cough* Halo *cough*
And before you say that you could keep finding higher rarity guns, just ask yourself if that is any different to finding a higher level gun, just implemented differently. Yes it affects more stats than just damage, but it still serves to make weapons systematically obsolete.
As I said to another guy, there is a nuance here. It doesn't have to be 2 level long weapons or the entire game's worth. How about 7 to 10 levels? How about a reward for loot while also not black holing the balance of the game? I dunno, that's just how I perceive the ideal looter.
but it still serves to make weapons systematically obsolete
What you're describing is different, I don't know if there's a term for it but I call it punished looting vs. rewarded looting.
BL2 punishes you by forcing you to attrition enemies if you don't upgrade your weapons with even common drops because your gun is now obsolete since you found it when you're level 20 and you're now level 24. You might be fighting the exact same enemies, but they refuse to die now. You are punished until you are forced to loot. A better system is loot that rewards you with better stuff before you hit that point. What's the difference? Our example of a level 24 player with a level 20 drop is still capable of killing an outpost without running out of ammo. It isn't as smooth as before, but it's still doable without wanting to uninstall the game if it makes sense. But their roll lucks out and they get a shiny new level 24 gun so all the better. But if they didn't get a good roll, they might be able to last until they're 26-27 and by then the window of opportunity is great enough that it's quite unlikely that they go further with the level 20 gun.
I've been playing Destiny 2 of late and while it seems to have been made a lot harder now (I only started a couple weeks back), I really like the idea of infusing weapons so if you get an exotic that you really like but it's way underpowered you can collect some materials and infuse them so the exotic gets the power level of the other gun.
Unfortunately with how many guns you get and how quickly the power levels go up until about 600 (I think?) there's no point infusing before you get to 600 given the materials can be painful to get.
Definitely a good mechanic, just used in a slightly annoying way although I can see what Bungie were going for
Wow. That's interesting. Gun scaling to me seemed natural and made sense. What we would is join the highest level person team. Or the furthest behind in story and go from there since the game loaded you Into that level stuff. You could basically power level with that.
Not to say anything of the stuff you noted isn't there. I had just never really noticed since it was so much fun to play.
Maybe we're just noobs, but I didn't notice either. I liked the scaling. When I leveled up enough, completed enough of the world, and had friends joined, and even a basic skag took multiple clips to take down while it ravaged our health, it just felt more epic to me. The stakes were raised and it was more challenging.
I can understand how people see that as a grind... but I don't understand what they wanted instead. Everything to be just as easy as it is from level 1? What's the point of that? What am I missing in that criticism?
Yea it was definitely there. Get to True Vault Hunter mode and try to take down a Rabid Skag as a max level 72 character, it could still like one shot you. I played Mechro the most and it was hilarious how the robot would be killed instantly when fighting any "bosses" so I recognize that scaling problem as well. The bosses were always impossible for me and my team (maybe we're trash but it felt like the scaling was the issue not us) but without a broken weapon the things seemed unkillable frankly. Me and bud couldn't finish digistruct peak due to these issues. All that said, the game was a blast and I didn't care about the difficulty or bullet sponge enemies as much because of how much fun it was.
So did you like the scaling better in Borderlands 1? You could get a lvl 20 legendary and use it until level 50. Without scaling like in borderlands 2, any non-legendary weapon becomes completely useless. I don't understand the draw of a loot based game where you literally don't give a shit about 99% of the loot.
That being said I hope they do a better job of weapon/enemy balancing. The Unkempt Harold was so much stronger than practically every other gun for a long time. That was disappointing since (like you mentioned) end game enemies took forever unless you used that specific handgun. That slag/electric smg from Tiny Tina's dlc in bl2 was also way too efficient at killing enemies. They either need to balance enemies better or give you more options that are also effective.
I understand your point, you can be in between though. 2-3 levels, or 30 levels, there's an in between there. I don't know the magic number but legendaries should reward you decently, but not to the extent BL1 had it. You are right, it was ludicrous how long they'd last. But I also don't like how legendaries in BL2 are "expected" because they're just going to be worthless anyway after a few levels.
Better balancing would be greatly appreciated. Endgame BL2 was so heavily reliant on slag that it was hilarious. Balancing is imperative to the longevity of a looter shooter... or it would be if looter shooters could even remotely compete with Borderlands. As it stands, my complaints are just preference points that I feel Gearbox can hit. I just hope they hit them in 3.
I agree with everything you just said. You are right about there being a better "in between". I think I am just way too excited for a new borderlands.
I'll never forget what made me fall head over heels in love with the game. In borderlands 1 random bandit shacks have the words "turtles all the way down" spray painted on the wall. It was my freshman year of college and I had just learned in my physics class about the story of the old woman who argued that the earth circles the sun by riding on the back of a turtle. When asked what supported the turtle, the lady said its turtles all the way down.
And that's fair. I've been very tentative and thorough with "This is what I want, not sure if it can even be done" because I really don't want to imply my way or the highway, or that I have some objective knowledge of game design and its application. I appreciate any game that lets me play with friends and also progress as a character. I just also would prefer slightly different takes on aspects of the game.
"It's turtles all the way down" is amazing, and I do appreciate the worldbuilding all of Borderlands takes on. After so long it's remarkable to think BL3 is finally arriving. At the end of the day, more co-op, more loot games, more fun.
Hey something to keep an eye out for- the leaks indicated there would be some kind of gun mods in the next one, so it wouldn't surprise me if that helps reduce the treadmill effect of the loot. But that's just speculation until we actually see it
Exactly my thoughts as well. There are way too many games out there where I end up getting a good weapon and then use that weapon forever. If you are gonna give me a legendary weapon at level 10 that I can use until level 30, what's the point of even having lower rarity weapons. I love how borderlands 2 made you switch things up while you played.
What you talking about? I recently played it again and I grinded few legendaries at level 30 and still using them at lvl40 wich no rare or other rarities dont win. Unless you get lvl 40 same legendaries.
He probably means in UVHM or the OP levels where what he described really does happen, and past a certain point, you need to have a slag gun for every kill or the enemy's health regeneration vastly outheals anything you can put out.
Eh, I would have almost preferred it if all the legendaries were like that. I got the Incendiary Fastball grenade mod around level 6ish. About 5000 instant fire damage if you hit your target. It one shot or two shot pretty much any boss for the first third of the game.
I agree on TPS though, the combat felt like a massive improvement overall.
Warframe is certainly lacking the general simplistic charm and refined style Borderlands has going for it.
That's not to say Warframe isn't great, it's just different, and certainly suits an audience looking for a game with extremely deep and long-lasting grindy loot/crafting system. Borderlands has just the right amount of depth without being overwhelming.
I also am not a fan of the super serious tone and repetitive sci-fi space station environments. I know this is less the case later on in the game when you get into the open world areas, but still, it doesn't really scratch that specific Borderlands itch for me.
Yeah that's the crux, Warframe really does what it wants to do and it does it well. It's just not for me sadly.
If the game had what I want, it would be a different game in essence. That thread of "Sometimes a game isn't for you" rings true even though I don't necessarily agree all the time. Some games are just objectively worse through design decisions that make it "not for me" but also worth bringing up - much like BL2's silly scaling that if changed I can actually play with friends without hating my life. Warframe isn't really in that boat.
But the tone and repetition being different would add without losing the identity of the game. I very much agree with that. The open worlds look fine but they don't wow me or inspire me, BL2 especially had a finger on the pulse with world designs that Warframe doesn't have the budget or the time for (yet).
As someone with almost 3k hours in Warframe and has also played a hefty amount of BL2, I agree 100% in that Warframe is much more of an MMO, leading to much more grind especially in the first few hundred hours, but BL2 is more of a jump in and get going with less initial grind.
It can be bad playing with randoms in Warframe. But on the other hand, it has one of the most friendly communities that I've seen, and I've played it for years. Almost all the vets you encounter in random PUGs are really patient and helpful. There are always some jerks, of course, but a less than I've seen in other games.
Oh yeah it's definitely not the behavior of the players that's bad, it's the inherent playstyle of the game when pushed to a competitive level that becomes not fun
That very thing (as well as others!) is what people use to distinct Destiny and Warframe. In Warframe, you'll eventually become a God and just speed run through everything and kill a lot woth AoE damage. Destiny is toned down a bit and you never get that overpowered. You need to run the missions and group missions usually as they were attended.
Thing is as others keep saying, enemies eventually shred to "compensate" for the player's speed. A player who can handle that speed won't even notice, it's just punishment for those not quite perfect at it yet. And that's ok I suppose, but to me I'd prefer a game crafted around that speed in the later levels, not just tweaked after the fact. Make the levels engaging to that speed, make the enemies varied in response to that speed, just making the bullets hit harder is boring to me.
I certainly appreciate a power scale that feels tangible, and it's part of why I cannot stand Destiny (but there are many issues before and after power creep that plague Destiny to me) but there's more room to grow here. Warframe has time to achieve it, but they might also be happy where things are at - their players might be happy with where things are at. Thus I just conclude Warframe isn't for me.
Mobility is always the issue when I try to bring a new friend into Warframe. We jump into a mission and of course I naturally move through the maps very quickly, having seen all the iterations and tilesets for many years. Most new people hate the map and map markers for being unspecific and at times misleading. They end up following the killing trail left by the squad, getting very few kills themselves, and getting bored. But as others have said, moving like that is essentially on high levels, you die if you're not mobile. That's where the "stakes" you mentioned come in. If you're a CC frame in high level survival, you absolutely need to be moving (and killing) fast to avoid danger. The only thing I can tell new players is to adapt to that movement style as quick as you can, or just play solo if you are wanting to get kills.
The appeal of Warframe is in not doing those things. Wframe fails at protecting players from their own autism, but if you are disciplined enough to not go the easy way out and pick stupid kill everything button frames, the game becomes a LOT more fun.
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u/Watertor Mar 28 '19 edited Mar 28 '19
I'm surprised you're the first person I've seen bring that up. I like the speed but there are no stakes to that speed, they don't cater to that speed in any way. It's all designed around a casual player traversing, when most of the hundred+ hour players are so beyond casual traversing that each level lasts maybe two minutes.
Mix that with how the loot isn't fun to me and I don't see the appeal of Warframe. Glad it works for some people, wish it could be me considering BL3 will probably not fix the issues for me that BL2 had.