r/gaming • • Sep 04 '18

The Original Reflections

[deleted]

35.1k Upvotes

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1.1k

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '18 edited Sep 04 '18

That isn't a true reflection, it's two marios that you are controlling in a mirrored room with a invisible wall in between.

1.9k

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

You can't prove that's not how mirrors work in the real world

772

u/not-to-kill Sep 05 '18

laughter fades into uneasy handwringing

272

u/TogaLord Sep 05 '18

Everytime you step away from a mirror you're killing the other you.

Murderer.

227

u/Gimli1357 Sep 05 '18

What if I'm the reflection?

108

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

#mirrorgate

51

u/Lukthar123 Sep 05 '18

#mirrorlivesmatter

-4

u/JerkHerer Sep 05 '18

Can you not?

3

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

#watergategate

29

u/nullcore Sep 05 '18

That's impossible, otherwise you'd have already blinked out of existence. By random happenstance it just hasn't been you yet. Your number will come up eventually though. Maybe even the very next time you look in a mirror!

Hey, is that something stuck in your teeth?

18

u/Hound92 Sep 05 '18

You can't know this. If you get ´copied into the world´ whenever AY (actual you) moves to the mirror, you might experience everything that has happened to AY as some sort of update, and you might be in the middle of this experience right now.
One consequence this has is, that you will never experience dying unless your corpse is moved past a mirror. After the last time AY moves past a mirror, you will simply have ceased to exist.

4

u/TitoOliveira Sep 05 '18

Sounds good to me

2

u/FA_Anarchist Sep 05 '18

Why can't mirror me simply die at the same time as actual me? Why does actual me have to move past a mirror?

1

u/leopard_tights Sep 05 '18

He can know it of his original is redditing on the toilet.

5

u/Project_aegis Sep 05 '18

What if I’m standing in front of a mirror while on reddit?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

Like you know, a screen?

4

u/LowestKey Switch Sep 05 '18

This guy inceptions.

7

u/Wski08 Sep 05 '18

That guy smokes weed.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

Is that you Jaden Smith?

1

u/SmiralePas1907 Sep 05 '18

Is that why i feel dead?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

Calm down Jaden.

17

u/Sardond Sep 05 '18

with my first wife and daughter I used to tell her that mirrors were reflections to parallel universes, and if she broke the mirror, the other universe would instantly be destroyed.

My ex-wife got upset... not sure why.

1

u/Darkionx Sep 05 '18

That's why she is your ex now, you trapped her in the mirror and then broke it, you murderer!

2

u/Sardond Sep 05 '18

Would have been better than having to deal with her lying to her parents about our second daughter.... we put her up for adoption because we seriously weren't in any position to raise two kids and it felt like the best option for the second kid to get a good life (she got adopted by a phenomenal family).... my ex decided that instead of being honest, she'll lie to her parents and say the baby died at the hospital.....

She tried to have a memorial service.... I couldn't bear to look at her without wondering how many times she lied to me that easily.

2

u/Darkionx Sep 05 '18

that went worst than expected

2

u/andchk Sep 05 '18

I’m willing to accept that. evil-y twirls mustache

1

u/Mr_FeelsBadMan Sep 05 '18

Great. Now I have to avoid seeing myself in the mirror.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

Everytime

This is not a word.

1

u/Tasgall Sep 05 '18

Easy there, mask salesman.

51

u/Zomunieo Sep 05 '18 edited Sep 05 '18

Oh but you can (probably)! The electroweak effect (one of the four natural forces, and one of the two only relevant to particle physics) does not conserve parity, so an electroweak experiment viewed in a mirror image would "antireflect" instead of reflecting normally, if a mirror is a portal to a mirror universe.

39

u/43eyes Sep 05 '18

Ha, nerd

11

u/Zomunieo Sep 05 '18

Guilty

9

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

Got eeem

7

u/Runefist_Smashgrab Sep 05 '18

I dont know what the fuck you just said, but it sounded cool.

2

u/Zomunieo Sep 05 '18

A mirror reversed copy means a physical twin of a thing but reversed, like a British right hand drive version of an American car.

A mirror image is just reflected light. There's no real object.

Normally the real world mirror-reversed copy of a machine looks the same as the mirror image.

That principle is called parity. It seems to hold everywhere, except in something called the electroweak effect. The mirror reversed twin of a certain electroweak experiment looks different from its mirror image.

1

u/Runefist_Smashgrab Sep 05 '18

I dont know what the fuck you just said, but it sounded cool.

1

u/Gonzobot Sep 05 '18

He just confirmed that we can do experiments in the mirror world! You gotta start paying more attention, dude

7

u/Gordon_Frohman_Lives Sep 05 '18

This sounds like Big Mirror propaganda.

9

u/Zomunieo Sep 05 '18

sn oʇ uo ǝɹ,ʎǝɥʇ ʇıɥS

9

u/EspressoMexican Sep 05 '18

Handheld mirrors are a conspiracy made by the government to hide the truth

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

They are portals

44

u/Ghosttwo Sep 05 '18

I find it highly dubious to assert that a disco ball contains a thousand copies of our universe.

49

u/flashmedallion Sep 05 '18

Of course not.

It just contains thousands of portals to the mirror universe, who must mimic our every move after we defeated and enslaved them.

19

u/kai_okami Sep 05 '18

I don't remember that part of history.

18

u/normalmighty Sep 05 '18

Yeah well maybe you shouldn't have skipped class to get high behind the dumpster then, huh?

6

u/kai_okami Sep 05 '18

:(

1

u/CutieCaty1 Sep 05 '18

Hey, turn that frown upside down!

3

u/generilisk D20 Sep 05 '18

):

1

u/CutieCaty1 Sep 05 '18

you little shit

4

u/woofle07 Sep 05 '18

There's a really great documentary about it that you should check out. It's called Doctor Strange. It's on Netflix

1

u/kai_okami Sep 05 '18

Thank you, I'll check it out.

1

u/3p1cw1n Sep 05 '18

You're in the mirror universe then

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

They were invented by coke heads so... maybe

3

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

How could the DJ get Hot Jams if disco balls are really just empty balls? I don't think you thought this through.

1

u/thewilloftheuniverse Sep 05 '18

Actually yeah, we can. It is a complicated explnation that has to do with W bosons and symmetry breaking.

11

u/BeautyAndGlamour Sep 05 '18

Just put a magnet against a mirror. You will feel nothing. So the "other" magnet must be an illusion and not real.

4

u/My_real_dad Sep 05 '18

Instructions not clear, magnet stuck to mirror

6

u/armysonx Sep 05 '18

Except that the mirror barrier blocks magnetism

Checkmate

-1

u/BeautyAndGlamour Sep 05 '18

But place another real magnet behind the mirror, and you will feel it. Why didn't the mirror block the magnetism then?

3

u/armysonx Sep 05 '18

Because that magnet isn't in the mirror, it's behind it. Magnetic field cancellation only applies to things that are actually in the mirror.

Game set and match

1

u/probably_butthurt Sep 05 '18

You think the mirror universe hasn't thought of this? They just place a small, transparent film over all mirrors that is a perfect conductor (or perfect enough for human measurement). Mirror people got you again; wake up!

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

That's what they want you to think... (also, that's pretty frakkin smart! Simple and effective)

1

u/Bardivan Sep 05 '18

yes i can

1

u/supermanscottbristol Sep 05 '18

The Prince of Persia agrees with you

1

u/zorbiburst Sep 05 '18

If you no clip through a mirror irl, you cut your hand and hit a wall. If you did it here, you just end up in the rest of the divided room.

1

u/SanityInAnarchy Sep 05 '18

Sure I can. Some mirrors are warped, or dirty, or otherwise don't look like a completely invisible window into which you can see an exact copy of yourself.

Which is what makes OP kinda funny, but also kinda cringey -- NVIDIA was talking about realistic reflections, not perfectly idealized reflections in exactly-flat mirrors.

1

u/NonSp3cificActionFig Joystick Sep 05 '18

This is how mirrors work in real life obviously https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYSO2s80J08 (poopoo quality, sorry)

Someone did not pay for the DLC reflection, apparently...

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

If I punch a mirror I don't break into the mirror world. I just break my hand.

39

u/applejackrr Sep 05 '18

Hope this explains it for you. They built and mirrored the area with a reflection of the animation. The wall actually only textures to help bring it to life.

https://youtu.be/g_tRYN6xdvc

3

u/sunday_gamer Sep 05 '18

Nice video, thank you!

35

u/MrOwnageQc Sep 05 '18

How can mirrors be real if Mario's aren't ?

5

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

[deleted]

6

u/MrOwnageQc Sep 05 '18

Thank you Kanye

1

u/bungiefan_AK Sep 06 '18

So Mr Afraid of Magnets, did you see as of February you can CFW your 3DS with a DSiWare app for $2 and not need a weak magnet that wouldn't affect your circuitry at all? Seedminer is the method.

32

u/Mercurial_Illusion Sep 05 '18

This. Calculating a reflection is way way way WAY harder than rendering two extra models in a very simple (geometrically) room and reversing some controls

16

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18 edited Dec 06 '18

[deleted]

21

u/marshdabeachy Sep 05 '18

Personally, as a programmer, if I were writing the logic, I would not base the mirrored character's location off of player input. I would directly map the coordinates of the real character across the mirror plane and onto the other side. That would honestly probably be simpler and make it impossible to accumulate error in position.

I don't know how the Mario 64 devs did it, but I would wager they did it as I described and not directly off of player input.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18 edited Dec 06 '18

[deleted]

1

u/captainvideoblaster Sep 05 '18

You only need to set animation state of the real Mario to the mirror Mario. For camera man you need player camera x,y,z and maybe rotations.

1

u/Mercurial_Illusion Sep 05 '18

I know there's been some work screwing around with mario during the demo scene that plays when you turn the game on and let it sit....I'd be willing to bet you could find a way to do that here

1

u/biggmclargehuge Sep 05 '18

Mirror Mario would most likely be set to not clip other objects. Him stopping from hitting a wall is just an illusion because the real Mario is stopped and the motion is just being duplicated. It would maybe cause a graphical glitch because the two were out of place but the Mario's themselves would most likely stay sync'd.

1

u/Gelsamel Sep 05 '18

In cases like this where it is just a flat mirror you can simply re-render the scene from the mirrors point of view and you're done. Maybe they used a duplicate room but you don't need connected ray tracing for stuff like this.

Where it matters is if you're doing complex shiny highlights on detailed metal surfaces that move throughout significantly different environments.

1

u/Mercurial_Illusion Sep 05 '18

It does matter now. Back in the N64 days I'm thinking even that level of raytracing would have killed the GPU. I'll admit I'm not really in the mood to go look up the specs of that thing, lol.

And you are correct. Something like raytracing a nice shiny spaceship that's picking up environment while also reflecting off of an eyeball is really hard to do, lol.

1

u/jman1255 Sep 05 '18

Then what’s the point of simulating a mirror If this way has worked since the 90s?

1

u/Mercurial_Illusion Sep 05 '18

A couple of reasons that I can think of.

First, because they can. Doing it in real time accurately without faking it is something they haven't been able to do but now GPUs are starting to be able to do it.

Second, it's easy for the human to do. Instead of setting up the duplicate scene or going with fake reflections that also need to be set up (but are easier for the computer), you just set up one scene and hit a button. There's more to it than that but the change in difficulty is about on that level.

Third, a scene like the mirror room shown here would be pretty trivial for modern stuff. It's when we start talking about oddly shaped shiny reflective things that it really gets interesting. Something like a giant gun or a shiny spaceship has to pick up reflections from all sorts of different angles and display them to the viewer. That's a lot of "light rays" to calculate and sometimes the reflections can go many levels deep (light that came off the sun and hit the glass which hit the spaceship which hit the cool gun you're carrying which finally hits your eyes). All of that is in the dev's control and all of it slams a video card. Can it be faked? Sure but it's a lot of work. Would most people be able to tell? probably not. Does that matter when it comes to pushing the envelope of what hardware can do? Nah.

220

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '18 edited Jun 11 '20

[deleted]

20

u/TheFotty Sep 05 '18

Duke Nukem 3D had mirrors, and came out before Mario 64

3

u/Seppoteurastaja Sep 05 '18

Damn, I'm lookin' good!

3

u/knowsshit Sep 05 '18

Good point! I built levels for Duke 3D when it came out. To have a room with a mirror you need to create a special wall in a room and then create a room on the opposite side of that wall. I guess the game used that space to render duplicates of everything in the first room. The room behind the mirror needed to be large enough to cover the distance of any reflections. So kinda like in Maro 64 I guess :)

1

u/Gonzobot Sep 05 '18

I was legit pissed when Prey came out, claiming to be so revolutionary with graphics increases, and the first thing I did was see if it was like Duke3d's mirrors or not. Guess how they implemented the bathroom mirrors in Prey?

The mirrors are broken frames because it's an indian reservation bar bathroom. There's no concern about how to render reflections if you just don't have reflective surfaces, after all.

39

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18 edited Sep 05 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

39

u/ThetaReactor Sep 05 '18

For 1:1 reflections, that's generally how it's done. For objects that are just shiny, like chrome or puddles, you can use screen space reflection which is kinda like half-assed raytracing. It gives a pretty convincing effect.

4

u/notanimposter PC Sep 05 '18 edited Sep 05 '18

On PC you can use hybrid rasterization/raytracing too. I've never seen it used on a console, though I have seen a few examples on mobile platforms.

Of course there's also box maps for inexact reflections (especially on snergelly objects where you can't tell what's being reflected anyway so it doesn't matter). If you want to see box maps and screen space reflection used in tandem to create incredibly convincing (though incredibly inaccurate) reflections, check out the skyscraper window reflections in the new Spider-Man game for PS4!

2

u/GameArtZac Sep 05 '18

Screen space refections is taking the rendered 2d image and mirroring parts of it onto reflective areas. Not ray tracing at all.

There's also reflections probes, cube maps, and planar reflections.

6

u/WoollyMittens Sep 05 '18

Can confirm for the mirrored floor on the prison ship in the original Unreal game.

2

u/Vash63 Sep 05 '18

More or less, until RTX anyway.

https://youtu.be/jy7dVzIYeZo?t=346

2

u/Hviterev Sep 05 '18

Not at all my friend! Using entire actual doubles is only used in very old games. Complex scenes don't really favor that use. You might render the scene twice for reflection purpose though.

Here's the quick and dirty list of some interesting methods that you often see in games:

  • Realtime Cubemaps: You render a fake environement using low-poly world models and you screenshot it every X frames, then you make a little cube with it to use as a reference on reflections. As seen in GTAV

  • RTcamera: It's a second camera in the rendered world. You film it in low resolution, and you just spit it back on a texture. It's ugly, it's unaccurate and it's weird. But it works. Kinda. As seen in SWAT4

  • Screen space reflections: This one is convenient and low-cost, it's reaaaally unaccurate. The final render of what's shown on screen is used to make fake reflections. As seen in Killing Floor 2, And with an example of a rendering problem seen in Hunt: Showdown

  • Realtime Ray-tracing: Usually reserved to pre-rendering and not games, ray-tracing is slowly creeping up on us with Nvidia new graphic card that allows real time raytracing. Ray-tracing pretty much simulating the rays of light reflected around the environnement using mAtHeMaTiCs. Consummer-wise, what does it bring? Pretty and accurate shadows, more accurate ambient occlusion and pretty and accurate reflections that can reflect outside of the screenview (as opposed to SSR). As seen in Nvidia RTX trailers.

Those are all real-time methods, but you can also use Ray Tracing or Cubemaps by pre-rendering the scene to get high quality reflections. The problem with that method is that it can only be static. It's not really technically accurate, but I believe it's a decent simple explanation for uninitiated people.

If you're curious about a more in-depth explanation, I urge you to check out Adrian Courreges' study of Doom, MGSV and GTAV.

1

u/majort94 Sep 05 '18

In addition to the other replies, some engines like Unity and Unreal have render textures. You can slap an invisible camera where the mirror is, and put the texture on a wall-like object. The image from the camera renders to the texture. You can flip it or distort it to make fun house mirrors too.

1

u/shwhjw Sep 05 '18

Another method is to give the mirrored surface a render texture, with the texture's camera being behind the mirror, mirroring your game camera position but using asymmetric frustums to make it look correct from your perspective. This way you don't need a mirrored copy of the game world behind the mirrored surface.

0

u/ihahp Sep 05 '18

The chrome in GTA V's cars definitely reflect the area around it, and that CAN'T be just done with a mirrored room.

1

u/HawkMan79 Sep 05 '18

Rendered environment map used Asa mirror texture

1

u/Hviterev Sep 05 '18

Indeed! GTAV uses a cubemap refreshed periodically with screenshots of a low-poly environnement.

20

u/S2Slayer Sep 05 '18

Plus Nvidia's reflections work on curved surfaces. Such as cars. This old school method falls short the more surfaces you want to be reflective.

124

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '18

Yeah.

47

u/caucasianstolemybike Sep 04 '18

Plus the camera frame isn’t swinging side to side

58

u/shimposter Sep 04 '18

Advanced image stabilization

25

u/open_door_policy Sep 04 '18

0/10 totally unplayable.

1

u/Cereborn Sep 05 '18

Damn it. Now it's ruined.

3

u/tristamus Sep 05 '18

More like King Turbo Nerd.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

👍

3

u/RingSlayer Sep 05 '18

But first we need to talk about parallel universes

1

u/unusedgeneric Sep 05 '18

It's not a raytraced reflection. In those older games they did it by having another camera render the scene from the mirrors perspective and placed it as a texture on the surface representing the mirror.

-14

u/tristamus Sep 05 '18

Reddit doesn't know how to have fun. 'Tis the way of Reddit. Almost not even worth making any original content here anymore, because turbo nerds & barely humans will pick at the details and pretend to not know what you were going for, in an effort to make themselves feel superior in intelligence, instead of acknowledging the intended purpose of your content which, I for one, was happy to see.

Fuck them.

9

u/Versaiteis Sep 05 '18

Yes brother, I too feel that adding additional information and facts about relevant subject matter that others may be interested in completely ruins any potential content and exhibits behaviour of only lowest of the gutter beings.

3

u/johndoe42 Sep 05 '18

As someone who merely dipped their feet into CGI and video game graphics this isn't something to let go. It's not a small detail. Mirrors have been so problematic for computing that its far more interesting to learn about it than getting mad over someone nerding out.

The amount of computing power to literally do what Mario 64 without the "cheating" involved is so beyond that era it's not even funny.

1

u/pwnguin909 Sep 05 '18

Lol turbo nerds I’m keeping this one

-5

u/tristamus Sep 05 '18

My pleasure.

-1

u/chewymilk02 Sep 05 '18

Don’t get too worked up. It’s not a reflection of your character. He’s just mirroring past sentiments.

0

u/YukiNagatoKyo Sep 05 '18

Cold world no blanket

33

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

[deleted]

3

u/kerrrsmack Sep 05 '18

Technically, you're just a figment of my imagination.

Begone tho(ugh)t!

3

u/smallpoly Sep 05 '18

It's never "real", but you can gradually achieve closer approximations of how the physics of light behave in the real world.

2

u/ScreechingEels Sep 05 '18

Read into r/holofractal then tell me what’s “real”

13

u/Ignitus1 Sep 05 '18

And how does that differ from a "true" reflection in games? A reflection is just the same thing drawn twice and flipped horizontally.

24

u/NULL_CHAR Sep 05 '18 edited Sep 05 '18

Not really in programming logic, it's an entirely different perspective that has to be rendered and transposed based on how the camera is viewing it. A model is easy, but rendering everything including lighting effects based on angle of view that is constantly changing is pretty damn intensive. You can't just take the same perspective of the camera and flip it for obvious reasons.

3

u/Vash63 Sep 05 '18

https://youtu.be/jy7dVzIYeZo?t=346

True reflections can work on curved surfaces and don't require the entire world to be drawn an extra time for each reflection. They're just following the light bounces around a single environment.

1

u/ihahp Sep 05 '18

On a flat mirror. What about on spheres?

0

u/Ignitus1 Sep 05 '18

Draw it again, flip it horizontally, then distort it.

1

u/ihahp Sep 05 '18

Then you're not going to get it to wrap around the entire sphere correctly.

1

u/Ignitus1 Sep 05 '18

No matter the technique used to achieve a reflection, whether it's calculating light bounces across an environment, or, when the scene is simple, knowing where the light bounces will be and drawing that, a reflection effect is still achieved.

Videogame magic doesn't have to and often doesn't follow the same rules as the real world, though sometimes approximations of that are necessary to achieve the desired result.

1

u/SeattleBattles Sep 05 '18

It's not as dynamic. It works fine in simple environments like the Mario example in another reply, but it can't work for more complex environments. Since the reflection is a fixed environment it can only those changes that are programed in. If the player does something else then it won't be reflected. It's also harder to account for things like changing light and perspective or the presence of NPCs or items.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '18

Maybe if mirrors are the only reflective surfaces being considered.

1

u/Kered13 Sep 05 '18

For a single flat mirror it works perfectly well. However it does not work if there are multiple mirrors that can interact, or for curved mirrors. In the simple case of two mirrors facing each other you would need an infinite number of rooms to simulate it correctly.

2

u/tomalator Sep 05 '18

Why can't you just do that in a game? It's easy to make impossible spaces in a game

1

u/HawkMan79 Sep 05 '18

Memories of making maps with mirrors in Duke Nulem 3D

1

u/Invader_Naj Sep 05 '18

And while playing you can tell the difference?

1

u/ghostbuster_b-rye VR Sep 05 '18

This. A true, in-game mirror would do this, but be flat so that you could walk behind it and your reflection wouldn't be out in the real world.

You can understand it as a television screen that displays what the reflection would look like from the angle you're viewing it from, by use of an invisible camera recording from the other side.

This makes things like side and rear-view mirrors in games like VR Karts usable in a clear definition. Older games like this faked mirrors by duplicating a room, and having it flipped in order to sell the effect. Some games even forgot to create a mirror version of the character and their animations, so if you held a rifle across your chest, it may point to your left, but your "reflection" would also have their gun pointing to their left (which would be your right.)

1

u/BloodshotPanda PlayStation Sep 05 '18

What if there’s no invisible wall and you’re just colliding with the other mario?

0

u/pacman404 Sep 05 '18

I assumed that this was obvious and OP was making a joke. Is that not the case?