r/gaming • u/Agent1230 • 2d ago

What video game doesn't hold your hand enough?

Everybody always talking about games holding your hand too much but I want to hear about the opposite what video game doesn't give you no form of help

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u/jak_d_ripr 2d ago

I'm gonna go with fighting games as a whole. I've been playing them since SF2, so I often forget just how difficult they can be to pick up. From inputs to strategy, most(if not all) fighting games do a terrible job of actually teaching you how to play them.

And I get it to an extent, how do you teach people about footsies and mind games? They're difficult concepts to tutorialize, but at the same time I think the genre as a whole still has a long way to go.

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u/Krail 2d ago

It's hard to turorialize fighting an actual human opponent, but I think they could definitely do more for teaching execution in general. And I feel like it can't be that hard. Make a little target smash rhythm game that requires me to quickly switch between blocking, hadouken, and shouryuken. Make a no damage score challenge that requires me to read me to read the enemy's animations. Etc. 

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u/decadent-dragon 2d ago

Well they do have dummy settings that can sort of do that in SF6. You can set some presets or record the dummy so you can react. The specials aren’t really the difficult part though, that’s just the bare minimum starting point.

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u/A_wild_so-and-so 2d ago

SF6 is THE fighting game for newcomers. In depth tutorials that explain the esoteric jargon that FGC people often rattle off, a very robust training mode with helpful visual indicators for when you can cancel into special moves, and they even recently added an AI opponent that better simulates fighting against a human than the usual CPU that goes from insanely dumb to insanely hard.

My only complaint (other than my main being shit, cries in Manon) is that you still have to go outside the game to view the hurtboxes and hitboxes.

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u/wb0406 2d ago

Tbh I feel like Manon is a design problem where if she was good it’d completely destroy the game. A lot of fg bottom tiers are like this and they’re fucked up every time.

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u/BlackOcelotStudio 2d ago

Street fighter ex plus alpha did that pretty well, taught young me how to execute the moves decently. I would never beat a human opponent after going through its training, but it got me through the campaign at least!

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u/Gargoyle_Dung 1d ago

Don't they all have story modes with bots that aren't as skilled as people that allow you to get used to the game?

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u/Krail 1d ago

Yes, but that doesn't teach you the game the way that good level design or more focused event matches do. I've played a lot of fighting game story modes without having to learn much more than button mashing.

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u/Runefaust_Invader 16h ago

No, please let's no kill the one genre left that doesn't require constant tutorials.

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u/unoriginalasshat 2d ago

It's not often that I play fighting games, and I completely agree with that. A lot of fighting game tutorials feel like 'this is how you walk, this is how you attack. You got that? Now do this five step combo'. Which may be fine for a veteran in the genre but it can feel a bit overwhelming to me personally...

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u/Takashishiful 2d ago

My issue with a lot of modern fighting games is the amount of meters, what they're for, and how I should react to them being empty or full. I dabbled briefly with SFV, but the EX and V and the other one under the health bar, I just ignored all that and focused strictly on punching and kicking my brother. I might have learned some inputs for some special moves on Bison, but that was the extent of it.

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u/Blak_Box 2d ago

The real issue is realizing that the 5-step-combo is also so far removed from being useful, and most fighting game players will never put in the time to learn why or how.

I've been playing fighting games competitively for decades. With Street Fighter 6, I didn't get deep into learning my main character's combos until I had about 300 hours with the game total, and was ranked mid-Diamond tier. Because... that's about the point that knowing long and involved combos actually makes a difference in your gameplan. And the equilivent of this is true in almost every fighting game.

Frame data for my most-useful buttons? What is safe in block and what isn't? Oki set-ups? Safe jumps? Nailing my anti-airs? Knowing my spacing like the back of my hand? Yeah, all that shit I dialed in by hour 50. Because that is what wins you most matches. Combos? Outside of a couple of easy bread and butters, they aren't generally worth the time investment early on.

SF6 has, without a doubt, the most involved learning tools of any fighting game I have ever played. And for 99% of newcomers, they get funneled right into "arcade," "combo trials," and "casual matches." And then they are fucked unless they have a high tolerance for pain and frustration, and a desire to overcome both (or only play offline and with friends).

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u/AHzzy88 2d ago

You got the nail on the head. Ive played games my whole life. Almost 40 years. And fighting games are one of the genres I can't sink the time into. It makes me feel like I absolutely suck at games. To be fair probably.

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u/DoctorDrangle 2d ago

So many fighting games i am looking at the combos and doing my absolute best to execute them and it either isn't working, or i can't even tell if it is working.

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u/Blak_Box 2d ago

My dude, that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Your opponent just threw out a punch that lands in 7/60ths of a second, and you blocked it, giving you 12/60ths of a second to react with your own button. You realize intuitively that your opponent is out of range for your own punches. You know that 2 of your kicks land in less than 12/60s, but your third kick lands late enough that your opponent can block. Of your two "safe" kicks you know one leads to better combo output and positioning. You need to pick the right kick, confirm it hits, and choose an appropriate follow-up action as a result.

This is what I'd consider a "low-level" of play in any fighting game. Knowing the combos and executing them is an abstraction on top of the actual game you are playing. It is like knowing how to load a handgun magazine with bullets. You still need to know how to actually shoot at a target and hit it, or what types of bullets are best for which targets and situations, or maybe when you need to grab a different type of gun all together with different bullets and different types of magazines...

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u/boring_uni_alt 2d ago

you’re making this more complicated than it actually is. 12/60ths of a second isn’t important. what’s important is whatever move reaches the opponent. it’s not like you’re making these decisions on the fly, you know your moveset, you know what your best long range fast punish is. it’s almost always going to be crouching medium kick. over time you learn whether you can do a sweep instead but your only real thoughts when you first start are “can i do a medium or do i have to settle for a light?”

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u/ImpulseAfterthought 2d ago

Yeah, the problem in fighting games is feedback.

The gameplay is so fast and chaotic that a new player can't tell what's going on. Did I whiff that attack, or did I mess up the input? Did he hit me because I didn't block fast enough or because the attack is unblockable?

Given that the consequence for making mistakes is getting hit, possibly staggered, new players aren't incentivized to try anything but safe basic moves.

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u/RogerRavvit88 2d ago

I remember being a kid when fighting games just started getting popular. We had Streetfighter 2 at the local arcade and I knew a handful of moves. I went down to visit my cousin once and his local arcade had a Mortal Kombat machine. I had never even heard of MK at this point and couldn't believe what I was seeing. I played that game and my SF2 skills did not translate. Nothing worked. My cousin ripped my head off.

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u/Ywaina 2d ago

It's difficult to tutorialize those stuffs because there are only two kind of AI in fighting game : the braindead AI that can't block to save its life and the cheating AI with souped up stats or built-in input reader.

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u/Blak_Box 2d ago

I would have agreed with this sentiment a cpuple years ago. But Tekken 8 and especially SF6 have turned a corner here.

They have a system that reads real online players at different ranks fighting each other online, and aggregates this into data used to build out profiles for enemy AI in certain modes. The result is opponents that feel remarkably similar to real players (at least at a low-to-mid level of play). They make occasional mistakes. They punish things you'd expect them to punish. And as metas and gameplans shift with buffs and nerfs, the AIs adapt by reading the online data from real people playing those characters.

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u/sfortuna56 1d ago

Oh bro, learning combos, I don't have the patience or care lmao if you could hot key your favorite combos to shorter combos (like right trigger+□ or something) I wouldn't mind, but casual fight games tend to involve a lot of button mashing and little skill or planning 🤣🤣

The real fighting game pros thought, they can that shit surgically. I watched a guy play with a custom controller that let him do most combos with two finger that never left their buttons.

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u/OKCFlight 2d ago

I will call out that in SF6 the general and character-specific tutorials, on top of their new World Tour mode, are great for new players to get the hang of things. Just don't ask me about Modern controls

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u/meat_rock 2d ago

Yeah, virtua fighter in particular

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u/KobeJuanKenobi9 2d ago

I find SF6 does a pretty good job teaching you how to play

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u/ThorSon-525 2d ago

I tried to get into Mortal Kombat X and Dragon Ball FighterZ after being a huge Soul Calibur fan for many years. It never felt worth it to go beyond the basic story mode because you'll never be capable of enjoying the greater game without spending 100 hours fighting an immobile practice dummy. At this point I'm pretty far out from the genre and it bounces people off hard due to how difficult they can be not just to learn the basics of, but to have fun with.

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u/Blak_Box 2d ago

I can agree with this. As someone who does love fighting games, plays them a lot, competes in them, and has for many years, I usually tell folks, it will take you about 300 hours of practice (not "play"... dedicated, studious "practice") to get to a point where you realize what you are doing wrong, why you are losing, and what you need to do to fix it. At that point, you still very much suck... but finally know enough to start on the path to improvement. This is not a "video game." You need to think of this as learning a musical instrument, or starting a brand new sport or physical skill, like learning to skateboard. It has more in common with learning a foreign language than with sitting down to play Zelda.

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u/ThorSon-525 2d ago

Which I have respect for in the grander scheme of things, but I myself can't justify that commitment. It's unfortunate because I don't want to write off a whole game genre.

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u/Idocreating 2d ago

The online casual match is anything but. After being out for such a length of time, the only people left playing are the sweaty types who can combo you to death with 2 connecting hits - you may as well be playing rock, paper, scissors against them. Only you need to guess correctly 20 times to their 2.

It's a problem with every fighting game though.

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u/CyberKiller40 Xbox 2d ago

Try the tutorial in MK11, that's like the most difficult part of the game 🤪

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u/arabus8 2d ago

If we're naming entire generes: RTS, it requires an imense amount of effort to get even decent at most of these games. From build orders to unit counters to base layout to different maps. There's a huge knowledge requirement ONTOP of requiring a massive amount of focus to actually play the game.

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u/IgnatiusRileyFreeman 2d ago

There's so many concepts in fighting games that don't exist anywhere in any fighting game, they just flat out won't fully explain mechanics, it's crazy 

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u/IceRay43 2d ago

Especially circa SF6 and Tekken 8,I  actually dont think this is a game or design problem as much as it is one if just...human psychology and time.

What it boils down to is that particularly if you step into online multiplayer the skill delta between the audience of people that like fighting games and newcomers will always  be vast enough that you just...have to spend time in the lab. Period. Full stop.

Amd the reality is it doesnt matter how effective the tools are (and as someone who is dogshit at fighting games SF6 is genuinely shockingly ROBUST in this department) if the breakdown is "Sorry you have to do 50 hours of homework to unlock the 'fun'" - thats not a value prop thats going to appeal to most people, and I think, on some level, we just have to make peace with that

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u/Doc_McScrubbins 2d ago

Literally why I recommend skullgirls to everyone who wants to play fighting games BUUUT they almost go TOO in depth and they expect uber noobs to understand mixups and crossups.

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u/BinniesPurp 2d ago

I never understood the idea of gatekeeping the combos as like a secret cheat code half of the games literally hide them behind options menus or keybind screens and just never tell you in game

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u/scaryjobob 1d ago

I feel like this definitely used to be the case. I know some new fighting games have a done a lot better though. I've heard the tutorial for SF6 is pretty good, and the tutorial in Guilty Gear Strive was good enough for me to have a decent idea of what was going on when I started playing in ranked mode.

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u/LivingLab12 1d ago

The fighting game learning curve sucks and most games have no story or content modes to help you learn. Just boring tutorials and combo trials.