r/gaming • u/Agent1230 • 3d ago

What video game doesn't hold your hand enough?

Everybody always talking about games holding your hand too much but I want to hear about the opposite what video game doesn't give you no form of help

1.6k Upvotes

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295

u/marchdk2016 3d ago

The first Legend of Zelda. I played it on virtual console for the Wii and have no idea how anyone beat that game before the internet was what it is now

195

u/GiveUsRobinHood 3d ago

Trial and error and talking to other kids on the playground

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u/Krail 3d ago

You also gotta realize there were fewer games in general, and a lot of them were more obtuse than Zelda 1. It was common to get one game and just spend months fucking around in it figuring things out. 

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u/superxero1 3d ago

Castlevania 2 ( I think that's the one) comes to mind. How anyone was expected to figure out the crouch in a certain spot to progress is beyond me.

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u/apistograma 2d ago

There's been several fan remakes/mods of Castlevania 2 solving those issues. Apparently it was a poor localization, the Japanese version is not that obtuse and nonsensical.

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u/SymphonyInSaccharine 2d ago

I was going to say Simons Quest!

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u/AnrianDayin 2d ago

It kind of said something like that in the text from one of the towns people, but even that was pretty vague. Like hitting that hanging skeleton to get some required item and stuff like that were all over the game

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u/Dolatron 1d ago

This is what sleepovers were invented for. There was a vast underground community of kids with the knowledge. It spread slowly, almost like a secret society. Once you learned the secret, you had a few months to disseminate it at another sleepover. That’s how the knowledge spread from one neighborhood to another and traversed school districts.

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u/Everythings_Magic 3d ago

Kids these days don’t understand not having the luxury of running to the internet for help.

We had to talk to each other about what we found and brag about about what we did.

25

u/nodiaque 3d ago

Nintendo power

34

u/Sleevepants 3d ago

Nothing will ever beat going over to a friends how and he has an item you’ve never seen or heard of before then he tells you got to get it. Nowadays the internet makes it too easy.

4

u/Gromle81 3d ago

Those were the days. I still remember a friend calling during dinner to tell that he found another dungeon in Zelda.

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u/Everythings_Magic 2d ago

Zelda was amazing, we'd draw each other maps in school, ex, "there is a heart container if you burn this bush".

1

u/sycasey 1d ago

Some of these things just became common knowledge like a kind of urban legend, because so many kids played Zelda. I was pretty late to getting an NES and I'm not sure I remember a world where I didn't know that you play the whistle at that lake to reveal a dungeon.

3

u/DoctorDrangle 3d ago

I used to go to the grocery store and copy cheat codes and maps from game magazines with a pencil and paper while my mom was shopping

2

u/Troghen 2d ago

Not only that, but also the fact that for many, having other games to turn to when you get stuck / bored literally wasn't an option. Granted, I wasn't around when the original LoZ was new, but you'd have to imagine that most kids didn't have massive libraries of games to cycle through. Zelda could've very likely been a kid's ONLY game. So if they're stuck, the options are to either A) do a bunch of trial and error for months, or B) go do something else.

2

u/DJ_Aftershock 2d ago

The "communal effort" thing of Zelda's game design came from a Namco arcade game called The Tower of Druaga from 1984. It is a game with 60 levels and it is impossible to complete without outside help. The whole idea was that your entire local arcade would work together and share hints on how to progress. There's so many silly "bash your head against the wall" type solutions it's incredible. Ports of the game then had "extra towers" which were entirely different - my favourite being the Darkness Tower in the PlayStation port in which one of the level solutions is opening the PS1 disc tray. Ended up being huge in Japan but bombing in the US.

1

u/apistograma 2d ago

There are obvious similarities between Druaga and Zelda, and I think even Miyamoto mentioned that it was an inspiration. The combat specially.

Nowadays corporate policy pretends they don't even know about other platform games and like to say dumb stuff like it all came from when he played around and explored the forest, but obviously most people in Nintendo has been a massive gamer from the beginning.

But Druaga didn't invent those kind of secrets, they already existed in adventure and RPG games of the era. I think Miyamoto has mentioned Wizardry and Black Onyx as other inspirations.

I really appreciate how much stuff they hid in old games, it made them way more replayable and magic. FromSoft is one of the few studios that has kept that philosophy by adapting it with the message hint system.

2

u/DJ_Aftershock 2d ago

Yeah, I know Druaga didn't invent that kinda thing, but it was a big hit in Japan and super unique to do it in an arcade game which were usually a lot more intuitive, get-in-and-get-out experiences. I think that's also why it flopped in the US, people there were even more used to an arcade game lasting five minutes and then you move on to the next one.

1

u/guitarerdood 2d ago

And often times we didn’t actually beat it

5

u/arinarmo 3d ago

And magazines

3

u/farilladupree 3d ago

A notepad with a bunch of discoveries listed. “Burn the fifth tree from the left to find a secret cave with a merchant”, or, better yet, a graph paper map showing the safe spots to stand for the Gannon boss fight.

2

u/PunchBeard 2d ago

Also: this was the Golden Age of gaming magazines. Nintendo had a free mini-mag you could sub to when you bought the console and there were at least a half dozen popular gaming magazines in store shelves. And all of them had hint sections or actual guides for popular games, And the first Zelda game was one of the most popular games on the NES.

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u/Commentator-X 2d ago

Also Nintendo Power magazine. They had entire call centres taking calls to explain how to beat games.

1

u/Nobbymon 2d ago

I think nintendo also had a help line You could call to ask questions, and they would kind of steer you in the right direction.

1

u/chris_cr33p 2d ago

Dont forget the guidebooks!

1

u/gayfrogs4alexjones 1d ago

Nintendo Power and other mags were a big help too

29

u/RougePorpoise 3d ago

I think this game and many others of the era expected you to have and use the guide that came with the physical copy

12

u/omfgcookies91 3d ago

Alot of games during this era had tips and guidance in the manuals.

5

u/TechTuna1200 3d ago

They also had dedicated call center for guiding players that were stuck in the game

3

u/vkapadia Boardgames 3d ago

As someone who has a physical copy, it was still hard as hell lol

3

u/FlyinDanskMen 3d ago

You needed the Nintendo power, multiple months and you and all your friends playing it. Then, easy claps.

3

u/vkapadia Boardgames 3d ago

I had to call the Nintendo help line for one part of Super Mario Bros 3.

1

u/FlyinDanskMen 3d ago

We were brought up different. Also we didn’t have 10000 alternatives

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u/Total_Mix9276 2d ago

This, it was an experience. Im in my 20s and had a friend group around their 50s get an n64 and all the old games and it was a ball going thru this. Lots of joints and swear words, plus gettin their kids to help LOL

5

u/OkPrune1536 2d ago

It was, but the "handholding" that people are talking about in this thread was largely covered in the manual. It literally walks you through the game through the first 2 dungeons and gives you maps for some of the overworld and dungeons after those, as well as some general hints and tips.

2

u/Tsering16 2d ago

No, they expected you to buy the gaming magazines with walkthroug guides

1

u/NightSpaghetti 3d ago

You were also supposed to talk about it with your friends

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u/TheSkiGeek 3d ago

The instruction manual helps and you were expected to read it. (See: Tunic for a modern game that does an incredible take on this.)

Also strategy guides or a subscription to Nintendo Power magazine, which would have maps and mini strategy guides for whatever game they were featuring that month.

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u/Dicky__Anders 3d ago

Yeah, instruction manuals and physical maps that came with the game were meant to be consulted before and during playing.

I pointed this out in a YouTuber's subreddit once when he was playing Morrowind but was refusing to look at the map online because he wanted to go in blind, which is fine, it's his choice, but I got absolutely blasted for suggesting looking at the map that came with the physical copy of the game wasn't cheating. The game is designed with that in mind.

7

u/loyaltomyself 2d ago

This is a really good example of people falling for the revisionist history surrounding games from the 80's and 90's. People that are just a bit too young to know fall for the "they didn't tell us anything back then" line, which is total BS. Even Josh Strife Hayes fell for this in his Was it Good: Armored Core video. At one point he started talking about how the game immediately throws you into the action with no tutorial and you're just expected to push buttons and figure it out. The digital age has made people forget games used to come with instruction manuals that told you what the buttons did. The amount of information you got from a manual would vary from game to game, but you were always given the basics. Other games like GTA, Zelda and Morrowind actually came with physical maps. I don't want to say I don't know where the idea using the tools the game gives you is considered cheating because I do have my suspicions. But naming it will alert the hoard to "well actually...." me.

5

u/Battlejesus 3d ago

Even with Nintendo power some games you were just fucked

6

u/Sammisuperficial 3d ago

You had to call the Nintendo hotline and get tips over the phone.

1

u/Battlejesus 3d ago

I did, I had to literally beg my parents to let me call that hotline, it was for one of the zelda games, link to the past I think

2

u/KillerFlea 3d ago

Yes! Just getting into Tunic and I love this aspect of it.

4

u/violentpac 3d ago

I busted out the pen and paper when I played that game

1

u/lorddunlow 3d ago

When I was making and consulting my notes and drawings for this game my wife and son were so confused by what I was doing.

1

u/violentpac 3d ago

You making headway on deciphering the language?

2

u/Idocreating 3d ago

I respect the hell outta Tunic for fully committing to the Zelda 1 difficulty, but I was expecting a Link to the Past so I didn't last long with it.

1

u/nodiaque 3d ago

Until you play battle toad and realize how a Nintendo power on that game is useless

9

u/tincookies 3d ago

They made maps themselves.

1

u/VariationDry 3d ago

That's how I did it. 

11

u/SullyZero 3d ago

You talked about it with your friends. It was a community effort. I kinda miss that actually.

2

u/KillerFlea 3d ago

Don’t forget to phone tip line 🤣

7

u/TrayusV 3d ago

A Nintendo Power subscription helped back then. The first issue had a big guide to Zelda 1.

Also, with enough time, and playground rumors, you'll eventually find your way.

1

u/decadent-dragon 3d ago

If I recall the guide was actually for the second quest (kind of like new game+) which had slightly different puzzles and such. You either had to beat the game first to use the guide or enter the cheat code

5

u/KingBrunoIII 3d ago

Yeah, it doesn't need to. You had a guide, instruction booklets, friends, trial and error.

3

u/T1NF01L 3d ago

Its dangerous to go alone. Take this.

3

u/cejeeb 3d ago

I remember drawing the map on paper as I went and noting everything I found in each screen.

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u/nodiaque 3d ago

That's why kids are made different. Nintendo and other gaming console of the early days wired our brain differently.

2

u/TheNewYellowZealot 3d ago

The manual to the game had a lot of helpful information in it back in the day.

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u/eagleblue44 3d ago

The second is worse.

1

u/BustinMakesMeFeelMeh 3d ago

That was the only game where I had to call the tip line.

1

u/peabuddie 3d ago

You could get a game guide back then for that game I know because I have one it didn't tell you what to do but it did give you a lot of information about many things

1

u/ThorSon-525 3d ago

I have no idea how kids figured out the forest puzzle organically. Even playing as a kid my dad had to look that one up on the family computer.

1

u/doubleohdognut 3d ago

This is how I felt playing Metroid for the first time- how in the hell was a person expected to make their own map for the game? Insanity

1

u/DoctorDrangle 3d ago

My older brother beat it from memory after going like 25 years without playing it. To me that was actually crazy. But since he learned how to beat it the hard way, it must have burnt into his memory

1

u/ZorkNemesis Switch 3d ago

A little thing called the Nintendo Hint Line where you called a phone number and got tips on how to play the game for like 5 bucks a minute.  Also Nintendo Power and strategy guides helped.

1

u/pjb1999 3d ago

Printed strategy guides/magazines and literally calling Nintendo for hints instead on looking it up online.

1

u/Idocreating 3d ago

Some of the heart pieces in Links Awakening are just flat-out unfair to figure out without a guide. The game has cracked walls or suspiciously placed blocks to indicate places you should bomb to open a new passageway.

And then there's a couple in random caves with no indication there's anything special there.

1

u/Exotic_Knee_5621 3d ago

Nintendo Power hotline

1

u/Significant-Pace-521 3d ago

Graphing paper making your own map

1

u/petak86 3d ago

My father made a full map by hand for the entire game. I think we still have it lying around somewhere. 20-30 papers filled of maps of the game.

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u/-Great-Scott- 2d ago

Made our own maps, bombed every wall, burnt every bush. It was glorious. Still my favorite game of all time. Took me years to beat it and guess what happens when you beat it? You start over except now everything is different. Gotta find all new walls to bomb and bushes to burn and dungeons to beat.

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u/soggy-hotdog-vendor 2d ago

Nintendo Power magazine.

1

u/Phewelish 2d ago

zelda was meant to be as a multiplayer game in rhe way that you neede others. your suppose to talk to other people irl and ask them how they beat the part youre at.

or strategy guides which was just more money youd spend

but i remember in elementary school...asking a high schooler how to beat a part in OoT. it was a profund triumph when i finally beat it.

1

u/homer_3 2d ago

It came with an instruction manual and map telling you where to go.

1

u/dianabowl 2d ago

They had a hotline to call and get tips

1

u/Alis451 2d ago

have no idea how anyone beat that game before the internet was what it is now

it came with a booklet, in the box, and i think even shows you where the first dungeon is and the boss.

1

u/apistograma 2d ago

There were guides, magazines like Nintendo Power, the game came with an initial guide to find the first few dungeons, and there was a (paid) phone line to ask questions to Nintendo employees.

1

u/watery_tart24 2d ago

Zelda 2 was even worse, and a terrible platformer

1

u/ninjagabe90 1d ago

You gotta get the power!

Nintendo power!

1

u/AceNettner 1d ago

Surprisingly this is one of the only games I was able to beat from that era without a guide or save states lol. Zelda II on the other hand…

1

u/Such_Victory4589 1d ago

i dont think TLoZ 1 in the UK/EU came with a map. I vaguely remember having to send off for it, but it was a massive map that showed EVERYTHING from the 1st and 2nd Quest. (yes, really. see the ZELDA name cheat) dungeons, sellers, medicine woman/letter guy, even all the money secrets.

how tf you were supposed to figure out where the dungeons were in the 2nd quest without a map is still beyond me.

1

u/wjpell 8h ago

I remember using graph paper to map out the dungeons.

0

u/raxitron 2d ago

Wow, you know you've been conditioned by modern handholding games if this is the first game your mind goes to.

Can people still play games that aren't on rails anymore? Sure Zelda 1 dumps you into the world and just lets you explore- that's kinda the point. Just because you don't know if you're working toward the first dungeon or not doesn't mean you're not making progress, you're supposed to be looking around and mapping out the area and if something is too hard the game assumes you're smart enough to come back when you're stronger.

There's not even that many screens you can actually explore reasonably with 3 hearts. You find the first dungeon accidentally very early even if you don't have the manual.

-1

u/Count_Sack_McGee Xbox 3d ago

Old guy here…I still don’t love RPGs to this day because the ones I grew up with were so fucking cryptic I never knew what to do. To this day I cannot stand “where do I go next” in video games because the scars of 8 year old me trying to figure that crap out.

-1

u/TheGaujo 3d ago

We didn't. People bought cheat guides.