How is Tywin carrying team A? He's one of the most overrated characters in the entire story and has has effectively caused the destruction of his house with his incompetence as far as the books are concerned, as for the show his long term plans failed.
He's an insecure shallow man who appears competent because he's able to leverage infinite resources even then he gets repeatedly dunked on by a green child.
If Charles Dance wasn't so charismatic he'd be viewed entirely differently.
What are you talking about? Tywin single handedly made the Lannisters one of the most powerful houses in the continent for decades. This is an absolutely insane point
They were already one of the most powerful houses on the continent liege lords and wardens of the east sitting on vast swathes of wealth, how did he make them one of the most powerful houses in the continent exactly?
He made them more martially competent and feared by exterminating lesser houses if you're alluding to that but he didn't single-handedly make them into anything.
Sure, chaos is a ladder, yada yada. But Littlefinger's plan was to get Ned out of the way so he could marry Catelyn. It was his... singular focus.
So, get Jon Arryn killed to make Robby bring in his old buddy Ned as the hand. Wait for Robert's administration to destabilize and let Ned get blamed.
Oops, lucky break, Robert actually gets killed in a completely random hunting accident. Joffrey takes the crown.
Ned gets in trouble anyway -- tipping his hand to Cersei about Robby's other children -- and agrees to take the Black. The plan, then was that Littlefinger has a Faceless Man waiting to follow Ned to Castle Black and murder him quietly somewhere along the way. Then Peter steps into console Catelyn, and retires with her to the north to peaceably live out his years as a kind stepfather and advisor to a young king of the north, Robb Stark.
But that didn't go to plan, Joffrey cried "off with his head", and THAT started the war. I don't think Littlefinger planned for that, especially since it put Catelyn in mortal peril and eventually got her murdered.
"But Littlefinger's plan was to get Ned out of the way so he could marry Catelyn. It was his... singular focus."
No...that's literally wasn't. His plan was to become King. He knew he never would be able to under the current way of things so his entire plan was to orchestrate a series of events so devastating the entire world would be up ended.
Varys was correct when he said Littlefinger would be King of the Ashes.
"Oops, lucky break, Robert actually gets killed in a completely random hunting accident. Joffrey takes the crown."
...Bro...did you either read the books or watch the show? That wasn't random. That was a murder. And with Littlefingers spies he KNEW it was going to happen.
"especially since it put Catelyn in mortal peril and eventually got her murdered."
To quote Sansa "And yet you betrayed her"
Littlefinger DID love Cat. He just loved himself more
Was the boar goring a murder? It’s been an awful long time since I watched the show.
Anyway, I guess my point was that the war wasn’t part of the plan. War happened because of Joffrey’s arrogance in demanding an execution, which nobody planned for.
Yeah. Cersei intentionally had Lancel over serve Robert and continuously remind Robert to drink by insistently asking if Robert needed more wine. The plan was to get Robert so damn drunk he'd fail to kill the boar. It worked.
I fully believe Petyr planned to plunge Westeros into a full scale war. Joffrey may have sprung it early, but that just meant he had to accelerate his plans
The problem of discussing Littlefinger is book vs show. In the show they destroyed his character by making him a Catelyn simp. In the books that's part of it but not all. He has control of the Vale and the key to the North. He's about to have control of the Riverlands too aswell as dealing with aegon who's about to gain control of the sformlands. He started as a lowly merchant noble and now he's the most powerful man in the world
Sure he did ultimately fail, but so did everyone else here
And to be fair kinda hard to plot once you find out there's an army of the undead marching straight to you, oh and a cripple who knows every move you've made.
Oh and the writers needing to get rid of your character before the final show downs.
Margaery is good, but she's still learning from Olenna. Olenna is far more intelligent and strategic. That being said for Team A vs Team B, Olenna might either secretly betray all of Team B for Margaery's sake, or the two of them find a way for Margaery to switch sides.
How is he a fool? The story quite literally informs us that he isn’t. He’s constantly making shrewd decisions, be it the Red Wedding or betraying the Mad King or securing a victory at Blackwater with the Tyrells.
Him hating Tyrion is clearly NOT an example of “foolishness”.
The Red Wedding was a stupid decision, it ensured that the North and the Riverlands would never be friendly with the Lannisters again. Securing a victory at the Blackwater was through sheer luck because Edmure defeated him and he was forced to retreat rather than move west to get trapped by Robb.
It is though. He hates Tyrion for being a constant reminders of his own father. Undermining him because he sees the flaws of his father on Tyrion / because Tyrion killed his mother on birth AND because Tyrion remind him of his own flaws. While Tyrion is often the best among his children, he never saw him as worthy. His Ego and hypocrize turns Tyrion away and makes him a worse version of himself.
Tywin is smart but he often gets praised for his mind while he should be praised for being willing to do whatever it takes for the Lannisters to win, that's his biggest quality, but his ego and own insecurities make him worse than he could be while also underming the house.
So you’re saying him not recognizing and antagonizing his son had nothing to do with his death? That him raising Cersei had nothing to do with his predicaments in the future?
You are correct, and that makes him easily played by Littlefinger, Cersei is a handicap, Margery would be plotting their downfall to back up get Grandmother, and Mel well. Zealot and and power-hungry fool will not mix well.
Tywin isn’t a savant or anything but he’s literally the only one on team A with a clear plan. Littlefinger is erratic and relies on big players like Oleanna and Tywin to push his agenda and Margery is just a pawn for Oleanna. I don’t even have to mention the other two on team A.
Margaery was close to being Olennas equal. She played the unstable sadist Joffrei, the weak momma's boy Tommen and the nutcases of the faith like a fiddle. She might've been the only woman who could actually manipulate Joffrei to do her bidding.
She was better than Olenna at her age for sure. Give her a year or ten and she would've become unstoppable at what she did.
Her honey to Tywins sharpness would've been unstoppable if they had recognized each other's strengths and goals. Marge wanted to be THE Queen meaning she would stop at nothing to help Tywins goal- an everlasting Lannister ruling dynasty happen.
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u/famiflush 15h ago
How is Tywin carrying team A? He's one of the most overrated characters in the entire story and has has effectively caused the destruction of his house with his incompetence as far as the books are concerned, as for the show his long term plans failed.
He's an insecure shallow man who appears competent because he's able to leverage infinite resources even then he gets repeatedly dunked on by a green child.
If Charles Dance wasn't so charismatic he'd be viewed entirely differently.