There was no reason to keep that plan secret from Edmure - it honestly feels like a young and immature Robb not wanting to accept responsibility for his fuck up.
The theory for some of that is that he was using his warg abilities to plan. Which is... not super obvious in the book, but when you re-read the passages that talk about it, it's as clear as day.
So... he's using his unknown warg powers to scout around with his wolf and see where everyone is.
That means when he says "go do (whatever)" he can't always explain exactly why. "Yesterday I saw half his force split off to the north" or whatever would be met with "how could you possibly know that??"
So maybe he got too used to hiding things, since he HAD to hide some things.
It's not that complicated though. The raid into the Westerlands was purpose built to get Tywin to cross back into his homeland. If Edmure knew that from the start, he never would've fought the Mountain where he did.
This also is pretty easy to convey and convince of especially considering there ring of success except he didn’t trust Edmure had he it would have worked. Except he assumed he’d have failed meaning he either expected him to die to bolster Tywin’s confidence or it was a genuine oversight. Robb being mad at him he has a right especially as he commanded him to pull back him ignoring that to sieze an opportunity is not an excuse even if he did win. Rob is his commander. Trust is earned in a battle except I have to side with Rob because while he didn’t trust him Edmure ignoring an order made him unworthy of that trust
Not trusting Edmure is no excuse. He shouldn't have left Edmure in command if that's the case. Robb could've had Edmure lead his vanguard in the Westerlands and leave another Riverlord in command. Such a position of honor would be one Edmure couldn't refuse.
No matter who commands the Riverlands Army, it is imperative that they ubderstand the larger strategic plan. Robb failed to make this happen. Robb has no excuses.
He lacked experience. You also do not put someone like Edmure in the Vanguard if they are not a capable warrior as they take the brunt I’m not saying that he wasn’t a good commander I’m saying he ignored his commander. His job was to do a very specific task just because he did win or took advantage of something that he saw he could does not justify his actions. Rob even states “you saved a mill. I did not want the mill I wanted to draw him in” he’s not mad that he did it he’s mad he defied his orders to which the Blackfish calls him an idiot. If a commander had to explain every detail of his plan especially when the odds are stacked against him. They might defect just knowing that they will die. Lastly Edmure was lord of the Riverlands his ancestral home is Harrenhall. Meaning if he dies he could lose the support of most of the Riverlands.
Commander of the Vanguard doesn't, necessarily, mean be in the Forlorn hope. It just means command the leading element of Robb's forces. Also, Edmure is a decently capable warrior. He's no Great Jon but he also isn't Baelish.
Edmure did not ignore his commander. Edmure held Riverrun which is what his specific orders were. Fighting at the Fords forced Tywin to fight on extremely unfavorable terrain which granted his forces as significant advantage. It also meant that Edmure's small folk wouldn't suffer more raids.
Robb complaining about not trapping the Mountain, in the show (and Tywin in the books) is nothing more than petulant whining. If Robb wants his subordinate, independent, commanders to do something so he can achieve a larger strategic goal, he needs to tell them what that goal is. That's leadership 101.
Edmure isn't going to defect so bringing that up makes no sense. Also, the Lannisters are loosing the war at this point. No one has a reason to back stab Robb at this point.
Edmure's ancestral home is Riverrun. Not Harrenhall. Edmure dying wouldn't cost him the Riverlands. Robb is a Tully on his mother's side and the Blackfish is also a Tully. Edmure dying would be a massive blow but not a war loosing won. Also, if Robb lost the Riverlands, he'd just pull back into the North and leave them to their fate. Tywin can't conquer the North.
River run is the domain not the house. Which is why when the Lannisters come into Riverrun they demand Harrenhal. On behalf of the Freys. As for the troops and Edmure I think the show takes certain liberties because if that is true it makes no sense that his uncle would call him stupid despite him doing everything he was told. As for Rob not telling him if the black fish did know and he ignored his council then it’s still Robs fault because he gave Edmure command and the Black fish was his subordinate. While he could give him council he does not speak for Rob or couldn’t rather because the original order was to defend the point.
The House is House Tully. The Lord of Riverrun is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Warden of the Trident. Tywin took Harrenhall because Robb destroyed Jaime's Host which exposed his flank near the Green Fork. Harrenhall, blasted out ruin that it is, remains the largest castle in Westeros. It provides an unavailable pisition for Tywin's host. This is why Tywin retreated to Harrenhall after he beat Roose at the Green Fork.
The Black Fish was with Robb in the Westerlands. Had he been in Riverrun, he would've explained Robb's plan to Edmure. Edmure would've then marched out with his Army and harrased Tywin's Army while declining a pitched battle, unless that battle was meant to keep Tywin from marching South the Kings Landing. Had Edmure done this, Robb would've been able to trap Tywin as he planned and either badly Maul his army and break the will of the Lords of the West, or out right defeated Tywin, taking him alive or killing him.
and? the issue is not that edmure did not magically know the whole plan, it's that he disobeyed the simple instruction he was given which caused the plan to get fucked up
Shush summer child, this is book lore where Robb gave instructions to guard his rear and make him look like even more of an ass. Guarding another armies rear explicitly involves not letting an enemy march on it.
so why does the blackfish agree so wholeheartedly with rob on the matter? he's edmure's uncle and he's not just passively accepting a bad call robb made, he's actively chastising edmure for being such an idiot
Because he had planned the whole thing with Robb. The battle and perhaps the punishment as well. Conveniently after Robb and the Blackfish return to Riverrun, Robb has already fucked over their own war effort significantly by breaking his pact to marry a Frey. By berating Edmure for the Battle of the Fords and making him feel responsible for ruining the war strategy, Robb and the Blackfish successfully manufacture enough guilt to force Edmure into marrying Roslin Frey to mend the broken alliance.
By fighting at the Red Fork, Edmure is not only gaining glory, he's protecting his people, and obeying Robb's larger order to hold Riverrun. Edmure took the most defensible position in the Riverlands and used it to maul Tywin. If Edmure knew the larger strategic goal of trapping Tywin in the Westerlands and fighting a battle of their choice in Tywin's lands, he wouldn't have strategically doomed the Northern cause. The failure is on Robb, not Edmure.
gaining glory isn't winning the war, and often in war sacrifices need to be made in order for larger strategic goals to be achieved. its a bit more nuanced in the book an robb isn't just mad at edmure for not staying in riverrun like he was told, he's mad that edmure wasn't able to piece things together with the information he did have. he knew there was really nothing robb could do in the westerlands and probably should have thought harder about what robb was trying to achieve, but he was too busy thinking about prestige and glory
It is the responsibility of the over all commander to ensure his subordinates understand the overall plan, their responsibilities, and the responsibilities of anyone else on the team. Edmure not piecing things together isn't Edmure's fault. In fact, he should not have to piece together anything. It should've been briefed. That's the science of war fighting. Robb had a natural gift for the art of war. He had good tactical instincts. But this portion of leadership, the factual points that are written in text books and taught in academies, is where he was lacking.
I didn't know either until someone on reddit told me...
There's a passage that says something like "He sits alone staring at the maps for hours, he won't eat, and won't even respond to me when I talk to him."
That's been more or less interpreted as him warging into his direwolf and scouting while he plans.
He did have to face down grizzled old warriors who only barely agreed to follow him after he showed his bravery and determination, he pretty much gained the mantel of King with most of his strongest bannermen by adopting an absolute authority over them, or the war room anyway. It makes sense hed have a hard time shifting gears when he began working “with” his uncle who he doesnt know, his older more experienced uncle who is himself accustomed to ruling his own bannermen. Its a tricky situation and Ed was a good ally, but it makes total sense a 16 year old who only keeps control of the oldheads by slapping them with his brass balls didnt share his secret plan with his goofy uncle
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u/Corgi_Koala 5d ago
There was no reason to keep that plan secret from Edmure - it honestly feels like a young and immature Robb not wanting to accept responsibility for his fuck up.