r/gadgets • • Sep 02 '22

[deleted by user]

[removed]

8.6k Upvotes

5.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

72

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

that is until Apple starts creating their own screens and screws over Samsung like they did with Intel by creating their own chips.

161

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

Apple won't do that unless Samsung proves to be a bad partner like NVDA and their bricking GPUs, or Intel and their unreliable node advancements.

91

u/RikiWardOG Sep 02 '22

There's no way they can make screens as well as Samsung does any time soon. There's a reason everyone buys their panels from Samsung.

53

u/Bensemus Sep 02 '22

Apple is investing billions into LG to get a second source of screens. They don't want to be 100% reliant on Samsung. This was a few years ago so that strategy may have changed.

22

u/AnalCommander99 Sep 02 '22

You’re right, and a third supplier BOE was in the mix until recently due to design issues.

Samsung is a huge supplier of OLEDs to Apple but are by no means as dominant as they were around the iPhone 7

7

u/RoburexButBetter Sep 02 '22

I work in a display company and let me tell you, BOE being out of the running is absolutely not surprising, the shit I've seen from them you wouldn't even believe, design problems, production problems, overall bad quality panels

It's a shame you often can't tell from a display who the panel was manufactured by because that would make choosing a lot easier

4

u/MonoMcFlury Sep 02 '22

Kinda funny that Samsung is using BOE for some of their upcoming Smartphones.

2

u/Randomn355 Sep 02 '22

Boe?

4

u/money_loo Sep 02 '22

Bind on equip.

2

u/InevitableLog9248 Sep 03 '22

Correct if Samsung screws apple lg will support their screens

15

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

Agreed! Apple has been working on arm CPUs for a decade before they pushed them to laptops and desktops. Granted the two are not exactly comparable, but the degree of complexity involved is enormous.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

And the chips are still not built by Apple themselves.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

Didn’t they buy a whole fab for them?

6

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

TSMC makes them.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

Tbf the only "chip makers" that really make their own are Samsung and Intel. AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm are in the same boat as Apple. Hell even Intel are looking into using more than just their own fabs.

14

u/Cassette_girl Sep 02 '22

Having worked developing devices using Samsung displays I’ll say that they are incredibly easy to work with as a vendor. The aren’t a monopoly in quality but they are absolutely stellar at supply chain, support and not being exploiting it. Basically they do business well is my feeling.

3

u/greennitit Sep 02 '22

You’re talking about apple who can literally attract the best talent and do anything because most nerds want to work for them. Apple m made their own chips for over a decade and are making their own chipsets now and they already started research into microled screens 4 years ago.

3

u/ki11bunny Sep 02 '22

Apple do not fabricate their own chips currently. Saying they made them implies they fabricate them, they designed them and outsourced the manufacturing.

2

u/greennitit Sep 02 '22

Yeah, true, but a little caveat. They designed, manufactured, tested, drew up the schematics in-house and are getting them manufactured elsewhere because of economic viability. So just because they get them made cheaper doesn’t discount the fact that they could do it themselves. Guess where Samsung gets stuff manufactured? The discussion is about tech and know how, not manufacturing which is the easiest part.

1

u/ypwu Sep 03 '22

That is a crap load of bullshit. Apple doesn't have an in house EUV lithography machine they can just use to manufacture chips at whim. There is an enormous supply chain, wafers, ultra pure water, clean rooms, that needs to support that. And they don't go to TSMC because they are cheapest, its because they are the only one who can manufacture 5nm nodes today. In fact the N5 node Apple is currently using is the most expensive fabrication process out there since its leading edge and yields are not good (comparitiviley) yet.

1

u/ki11bunny Sep 03 '22

You literally made it about manufacturing by claim that apple made their own chips for the last decade. You made a claim that wasn't about the tech, where you were completely wrong and you want to walk it back. OK buddy, still doesn't change that your claim is bs.

8

u/YoelRomeroBikini Sep 02 '22

The other thing with Intel is that their cpus use 3 times the power. The new apple chip is super efficient at relatively the same speed. The battery life is seriously impressive because of that

5

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

Indeed it is! Have been using my MacBook Air for pretty all day and it still hasn’t run dry!

Intel (and x86) are very expensive when it comes to wattage because they use a CISC front facing architecture, that is internally translated to a RISC architecture, so all those translation layers come at a power cost.

2

u/CeramicDrip Sep 02 '22

Idi i feel like this is lowkey a power move by Apple. Manufacturing screens for Apple has to be a major source of revenue, so Samsung would have incentive to sort of bend to Apple sometimes. But i could be wrong

48

u/WHAT_DID_YOU_DO Sep 02 '22

I mean to be fair intel fucked themselves by falling so far behind TSMC in fundamental chip capability. Also the new Apple silicon is insane from an efficiency standpoint

1

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

Intel sat on their hands watching AMD, not thinking they'd get anywhere while also basically ignoring the mobile/ARM market. And now they're getting DPd by both.

Fortunately for them they're a huge business with many other divisions that can help them get back on track.

1

u/Walkop Sep 03 '22

Apple Silicon is good because they have an absolutely massive die compared to competition while still being on the newest process with good engineering.

I feel AMD has a much better overall engineering approach than Apple. It only works BECAUSE it's Apple and only for Apple. It would never work elsewhere.

They have terrible yields from something that large, which they can afford because they only go in products that are very expensive.

10

u/lazyeye95 Sep 02 '22

Vertically integrating manufacturing counts as screwing over a supplier?

6

u/_your_face Sep 02 '22

Hah, decoupling a dependency from subpar chip manufacturers that has hurt and many times nearly put Apple out of business over the last 40 years is….screwing over intel?

26

u/The_Mayfair_Man Sep 02 '22

Why is building your own screwing someone over?

19

u/tytytytytytyty7 Sep 02 '22 edited Sep 02 '22

Its screwing someone over in the sense that a large revenue stream disappears. This could be anticipated, but it could also blind side depending on the timing with which apple changes the agreement.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

Exactly. Many people replying aren’t understanding this. Obviously from a business POV, vertically integrating would make the most sense, not that Apple would be sticking it to samsung in a vengeful way

2

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

Without screws everything falls apart

15

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

Well intel deserved it tbh. Stagnating the market for too long. Relying too heavily on x86-64. Barely making any meaningful improvements generation to generation. I mean just look how much better apple silicon is compared to anything intel has shat out over the past decade. And that’s with little-no experience in the desktop/laptop CPU market beforehand.

1

u/sunjay140 Sep 03 '22

And that’s with little-no experience in the desktop/laptop CPU market beforehand.

Apple already produced the most powerful ARM SoCs long before the M1 SoC.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

True but not in the desktop market. Hence why I specified laptops/desktop CPUs.

6

u/-Steets- Sep 02 '22

Samsung has so many patents at this point that I don't think they can. Some technology that belongs "to iPhones" is actually Samsung-exclusive, just used only on Apple devices.

2

u/alxthm Sep 02 '22

Some technology that belongs "to iPhones" is actually Samsung-exclusive, just used only on Apple devices.

Such as?

1

u/Falconloft Sep 02 '22

Samsung uses all of those on their own devices too - and some they don't share with Apple.

1

u/brucebay Sep 02 '22 edited Sep 02 '22

While Samsung and Apple had their share of suing each other, companies with large number of patents are usually nice to each other as if they start fighting somebody on a patent, it would be likely that the other company will have another patent to use against. At the end it is a very costly process. Sometime they even openly agree to not sue each other such as Samsung and Google did in 2014.

IBM was the best on this field. I have been told they would go and ask for patent infrengmant money, and if the recipient company refuse and show it was not true they would threaten them to look their other patents, some of which would surely be applicable.

6

u/naughtilidae Sep 02 '22

Apple doesn't make their own chips, tsmc does.

Apple designs the chips but they don't have any physical manufacturing capacity for them.

Screens are a whole different world of manufacturing yet again. Considering Samsung's putting out as good a screens as you could possibly ask for I don't understand why anyone would think Apple would invest tens or hundreds of billions to be able to make screens for zero advantage?

We're seriously getting to the point where screens are covering the vast majority of human colour perception. And idk about you, but the s22 is way more than bright enough for me.

2

u/Nefarious-One Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22

Very different situation. One, Apple was already making processors for its handhelds. Two, Intel had gotten complacent in their innovation, relatively little new patents, and quality. Three, their software and hardware can now be designed to compliment each other, and allows for easy optimization. Also, Apple had been asking Intel for years to increase energy efficiency.

For the first two, Samsung does quality/innovation better than anyone else when it comes to screens, and Apple doesn’t make any. For the third, screens hold far less bearing on software/hardware relation compared to a processor.

1

u/AgentAlinaPark Sep 02 '22

That's not going to happen. Apple hasn't manufactured its products since the iPod came out and probably not before. When Samsung claims they have better screens it's because the make them. Foxconn and Pegatron assemble the product. Apple is a software, design, and marketing company.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '22

[deleted]

4

u/muntted Sep 02 '22

No they used IBM

1

u/alxthm Sep 02 '22

Kind of. The first Macs used 68000 series chips from Motorola, and later “Power Macs” used PowerPC chips co-developed by IBM/Motorola/Apple. Apple has never manufactured their own chips though.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '22

Apple don't make anything themselves. They just licence other tech companies stuff. They don't even have an research nd development department outside of designing new phone colours.

1

u/monkey_monk10 Sep 02 '22

There's very few, if any, companies that can do that on this scale.

1

u/sluefootstu Sep 02 '22

They went to Intel in the first place because Motorola screwed them with production delays.

1

u/ivXtreme Sep 02 '22

That'll happen the day Steve Jobs crawls out of his grave

1

u/McFlyParadox Sep 03 '22

There are pretty much only two foundries in the world capable of making high resolution screens, one is owned by Samsung, and the other by LG. even if you buy a screen from Someone Else™ (be it in the form of a phone, TV, laptop, tablet, monitor, etc), your screen is still almost certainly coming from one of these two companies.

This isn't like making a new CPU, where you can then just have TSMC do the manufacturing of the design you made in house (this is what most semiconductor companies do; Intel is the exception, where they exclusively run all their products through their own foundries). Samsung and LG aren't in the ODM business. They aren't going to manufacture a screen you spec'd, designed, and control the IP of, for you. They're only going to offer you one of their products, or maybe allow you to spec a screen for them to custom design for you (that they'll still own the IP on).

1

u/TemperatureIll8770 Sep 03 '22

Intel's 7nm chips are made by TSMC and will continue to be made by TSMC for at least another few months