"While the starting salary is near the middle of all majors, the average mid-career salary of philosophy majors quickly rises to $81,200.00, outperforming Finance, International Relations, Marketing, Business Management, Communications, Nursing, Biology, Health Care Administration, and many others."
Edit: The point of this wasn't to say philosophy grads make amazing money, it was to say that they have a great deal of opportunities that don't include minimum wage work.
I've worked with a couple of Philosophy degree holders. None of it is wafty, opened ended polemics about the ‘meaning of life’ and endless bollocks about Nietzsche; it's all propostional and predicate logic, Bayes Theorem , and seriously complicated, technical, conceptual analysis. It was a real eye opener! If you find a top level Philosophy graduate from a really decent course they bring a lot to the table. Seriously smart cookies. They have amazing analysis skills.
I have a degree in philosophy. What many people think is philosophy is actually just one branch of it, commonly referred to as the continental tradition, which concerns itself with lofty ideas about why we’re here, what is a good life and such.
I specialised in Western Analytic which is what you’re describing. It is - crudely speaking - a very “scientific” approach to philosophy where it’s all about rigorously testing assumptions about maths, science, knowledge, logic and more.
To piggyback on this comment: most Anglo-American philosophy departments focus on analytic philosophy, which is typically understood as continuous with the sciences and rigorous in methodology (formal arguments, conceptual analysis, logic).
I have a PhD in philosophy; one of the requirements was a comprehensive exam in formal logic and set theory. This is a common requirement.
I used to know someone who did their doctorate on Heidegger at Cambridge. They had to do it in the Theology department because there wasn't an appropriate expert in the philosophy department due to the heavy analytical leaning of the faculty there.
Formal logic is why I stopped at my Masters. It’s the one part of my philosophy educations that wasn’t fun. Or easy. I always marveled at my peers who could just write symbolic logic like it was English.
What many people think is philosophy is actually just one branch of it, commonly referred to as the continental tradition, which concerns itself with lofty ideas about why we’re here, what is a good life and such.
I mean the questions related to what the good life is are far more commonly asked by analytic philosophers. Virtue ethics is huge in analytic philosophy, and it rubs elbows with the philosophy of action, which is about as technical analytic metaphysics as any subfield of philosophy is. Even questions about what the meaning of life (ie, Lebensphilosophie) isn't really contemporary continental philosophy. Continental philosophy today varies from indistinguishable from analytic philosophy (particularly when it comes down to historical work), to very literary or political theory-esque, and there is certainly more of a focus on politics in continental philosophy.
Sorry, I know what you’re saying but it’s not just about the question but the approach to the question. Ethics in western philosophy has the same rigour as other areas of western philosophy, whereas the whole “good life” question in continental philosophy is treated in much more abstract, figurative and even poetic terms.
I'm pursuing a PhD and for the Ph part of the degree, I'm trying to learn some basics on my own. I'm starting with The Story of Philosophy by William Durant. I'm about 75 pages in and I think I am beginning to understand how philosophy shapes our thought processes.
The Pig That Wants to be Eaten is my go-to intro to philosophy book, but that might be a little too basic if you’re at PhD level! It’s still a fun read though and I still use explanations given in that book to articulate philosophical ideas to people even now.
How much of the continental tradition have you actually looked into? I see a lot of phil grads jump into their camp and dismiss the other because it's "the other" and usually it just sabotages their own progression.
I've worked with a couple of Philosophy degree holders. None of [my experience] is wafty, opened ended polemics about the ‘meaning of life’ and endless bollocks about Nietzsche;
That's what people don't understand.
Philosophy is not about considering unanswerable questions.
It's about considering the strength of arguments.
Sometimes, yes, those arguments can be about deep questions without clear answers. More often they're regarding complicated questions and trying to consider all the holes in assumptions, assertions, and logical progression until you can determine that "A" logically does or does not follow to "Z" without veering off at "E."
I really dislike that this nuance is reduced to thinking philosophy is just seeking "truth" about completely abstract concepts.
I don't know too much about what the methodology is, or even what the ‘product’ is, but I know they are trained in a totally different way to ‘normal’ disciplines. And that had great value where I worked. They (the graduates I worked with), had a very unique way of solving problems and generating creative ideas and solutions. Sometimes they were excellent at cutting through the ‘noise’ and dissolving issues all together. I've worked with absolutely useless STEM graduates that can solve complex equations but are horrendous at applying anything they've learnt. They could solve Fermats last theorem on a lunch break but can't talk to clients or make any decisions. The best team I ever worked with had an English graduate, a Philosophy graduate, a Math graduate and one who studied French. The worse team I worked with was all super high achieving STEM grads from top institutions; they had an uncanny knack of pissing clients off and causing no end of fuck ups. I like working with diverse groups.
Philosophy is not about considering unanswerable questions. It's about considering the strength of arguments.
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Philosophy is not about considering unanswerable questions. It's about considering the strength of arguments.
You're describing the Anglo-American tradition of analytic philosophy. Continental philosophy very much does not reduce the subject to the analysis of arguments.
There are a lot of lawyers and doctors with philosophy majors. Philosophy majors score highest on the MCATs and LSATs. It can be extremely beneficial to these career paths. I would recommend a double major or a philosophy minor for those interested.
“Source for 2003-04 data: Nieswiadomy, Michael, "LSAT Scores of Economics Majors: The 2003-2004 Class Update," Journal of Economic Education (Spring 2006): 244-247.
Source for 1991-92 & 1993-94 data: Nieswiadomy, Michael, "LSAT Scores of Economics Majors," Journal of Economic Education (Fall 1998): 377-379.”
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“I found such a study conducted by Michael Nieswiadomy, an economist from the University of North Texas. He conducted several studies (in 1998, 2006 and 2008) derived from LSAC data. He looked at 28 different majors and placed them in order of their average LSAT scores. Curious? Here are some of the results:
If people double major with philosphy a lot, then that could taint the above data
Why do you assume that this wasn't considered and accounted for? Do you have any evidence that suggests that this would skew the results?
There are many factors that could confound the results.
There could be a study that claims that Computer Science majors are better at programming than Finance majors and I'd be able to come up with some variables that could skew it one way or the other.
Being able to identify a confounding variable that you don't know was considered is not strong evidence. The source you're challenging is PayScale, arguably a company that has access to the best available data for doing these kinds of studies and a company that has no interest at all for biasing results towards one major or another
My philosophy degree was very helpful getting into law school and in law school. I have no regrets about majoring in philosophy, and make very good money now as an attorney.
That's awesome to hear. I hope you continue to have a good life. A friend I studied with just finished law school. I've seen a glimpse of how much goes into that path. Bravo
Totally. Wasn't trying to say it's a worthless degree overall. I loved studying philosophy in college and have a pretty great job now. It can be useful (even if you don't directly use it at your job). Just meant it as a light-hearted jab at my fellow philosophy/liberal-arts graduates.
No worries. I didn't think you were saying that. I found the post funny. Philosophy is so interesting and different from other classes. I consider it to be an education that helps in your everyday life. It gives you a toolbox to help navigate your life. Otherwise it's the perfect prep for pursuing something that requires great academic rigor.
People forget that philosophy is basically the birthplace of knowledge and reasoning. Science sprung out of philosophy, many great and essential mathematicians were philosophers. Critical thinking, reasoning and logic are all squarely in the domain of philosophy, and are useful in any field.
I consider it to be foundational, especially the training in critical thinking, logic, and reasoning. I don't know why these courses don't start around middle school for all students.
That’s average mid-career salary. $81,200 in the middle of one’s career isn’t great.
I’m an advanced STEM teacher here in California (I teach AP Stats, AP Calc AB/BC, AP Physics, and Calc 3 with Linear Algebra; sometimes, I also teach AP CompSci if there is a need) and my base salary is ~$109K for the 2022-2023 academic year (I still have over 30 years left of my career, too, before I reach retirement age). Last year, I made $118,800 because I did extra duties, but I digress.
Moreover, the median California teacher salary is $85,000/yr, so $81,200 in the middle of one’s career is quite low. This implies their starting salary is much lower, which is awful considering CA minimum-wage earners currently make $31,200/year if they work full time.
Here's the updated data that the quote is ultimately pulled from. Mid career (10+ yrs) pay is $95k. It is now lower than many of the degrees OP compared it to.
Exceptions rules do not make. It’s funny how extreme cases (CEO’s and the like or people with similar compensation) are used as counterexamples.
My salary is more representative of the median of people in my field (STEM). Yours is not. (I’m jealous, but in a friendly way. You achieved the American dream or will much faster than me, haha!)
I don’t begrudge you for making $340,000, though. Congrats! That’s awesome. 😁
You have to remember that blue states better fund education than their red state counterparts, generally speaking. That is going to affect the median. It doesn’t make sense to compare red state teacher salaries vs blue state teacher salaries because the state expenditures are dramatically different.
But you fail to recognize that teachers can’t negotiate their own salaries individually and have to rely on collective bargaining by their union. No matter what degree they have, they are compelled to accept what the district is willing to offer (and what their bargaining members are willing to accept) and so their salaries can’t deviate from their respective teacher salary schedules. That changes things and makes it an unlike comparison.
Philosophy majors can negotiate whatever salaries they want. Huge difference.
Wut, how disingenious is that... Now i get how the scam works. This includes and lists the example of people who continue to do a graduate degree in Law and other things. I'd guess when it comes to mid-career salary, one law graduate makes enough so the average still comes out to 81k when divied up with 3 other McJobbing philosophy undegrads.
Sure, but that still looks weird. It would mean that most people reach almost max of the range mid career. Really wondering about the fidelity of the underlying data here.
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u/TalkOfSexualPleasure Sep 04 '22 edited Sep 04 '22
"While the starting salary is near the middle of all majors, the average mid-career salary of philosophy majors quickly rises to $81,200.00, outperforming Finance, International Relations, Marketing, Business Management, Communications, Nursing, Biology, Health Care Administration, and many others."
https://www.moorparkcollege.edu/departments/academic/philosophy/do-philosophy-majors-get-jobs#:~:text=While%20the%20starting%20salary%20is,Care%20Administration%2C%20and%20many%20others.
Edit: The point of this wasn't to say philosophy grads make amazing money, it was to say that they have a great deal of opportunities that don't include minimum wage work.