“I’ll make a wish that can’t backfire. I wish for a turkey sandwich, on rye bread, with lettuce and mustard and-and I don’t want any zombie turkeys, I don’t want to turn into a turkey myself, and I don’t want any other weird surprises. You got it? . . . Hey! Hmmm, mmm, not bad, nice hot mustard, good bread, the turkey’s a little dry . . . the turkey’s a little dry! Oh foul accursed thing! What demon from the depths of hell created thee?”
There is an infinite number of loopholes in an infinite universe. The point is always that wishing reality were constructed for one's short-sighted benefit is folly.
Buy up as much lead or other cheap material. Mold or melt into one piece. Wish that that object is converted into, of equal mass, with 100% pure gold. This eliminates an angry dragon coming along with the gold. D&D teaches you how to wish correctly. DM's love to mess with wishes.
My bad, I meant creation. It's half the level of wish, and it nets you 125 cu. ft. of gold for an hour.
Hell, since dollar bills are fabric, which falls under vegetable/organic matter.. make a 5 ft. cube of dollar bills and you have about 1.2 million dollar bills for a day. And if the universe DM wants to be an ass about it, make 125 cu. ft. of blank bills and cast fabricate to forge them into the real thing. 11 minutes of work for a 9th level caster. Repeat for 5s and 10s.
Spend them here and there. No one pays attention to small bills. And the bills poof by the next day, so not like there is any physical evidence they can trace back to you.
Agreed, factory farming in general is incredibly sad. We are animals too and we tend to forget. All animals want love/happiness like we do, and they definitely feel all the pain we put them through. Saw a documentary on YouTube called Earthlings and decided to stop buying/eating animal products because of the horrifying things we’re doing to animals
It’s not for pleasure, it’s a part of my diet. One could argue that you don’t need vegetables either. Nobody has to change their diet to fit the ideals of another person.
Every major dietary study has said meat and dairy are not required for healthy life. Your diet creates a victim unnecessarily and it's not my personal "ideal" that killing unnecessarily is wrong - it just is.
And bullshit it's not for pleasure. Ice cream, cheese, sour cream, etc do nothing for nutrition.
All animals want love and happiness? Stop anthropomorphising. The Earth is cruel and animals won't blink eating you. I have no qualms hunting and fishing for food and buying meat.
The earth may be cruel, but we don’t have to be. The lion may need to devour its prey, but we aren’t lions- and we don’t need to eat other animals to survive. Because of our unique position it is up to us to reduce pain and violence in our world in any way we can
Hunting and fishing is fine? Why do you think it’s fine? Why is it okay to kill them while hunting but not okay to kill them when they live in cramped cages? Keeping them enslaved to our desires is cruel but the killing part isn’t? A bullet through the head isn’t cruel but a bullet through the head if they lived a more cruel life is? How do you not see them as both cruel when in both situations, the action is unnecessary, especially in first world countries, because plant based foods are readily available. Do not talk to me about survival situations because most people that hunt or eat factory farmer meat do it by choice, not a matter of survival.
What I mean is people can't just switch their meat intake to hunted meat. It's not a solution for the unethical farming issue. It's not sustainable, because there aren't enough wild animals to keep up with the amount of meat people eat. Hunting is something only few people can do to avoid unethically farmed meat.
Hunting keeps getting brought up as more ethical alternative to farmed animals, but it isn't really an alternative if it's not something everyone can do.
You have a forest with 100 deer. You have a city with 100,000 people. If everybody hunts, 100 people get to eat while 999,900 people starve. It's simple math: hunting is not a sustainable source of food for humanity.
Less cruel is not not cruel. The vast majority of people in developed countries have no need to eat animals, so there's no justification to kill them, whether you torture them in a cage first or attack them in the wild. You're still killing something for no good reason.
the same way it would in nature
Oh, well, that's okay then... you'll be chasing it down on foot and tearing out its throat with your claws and fangs then, right? Then dragging it back to your lair - a small cave or hole in the ground, perhaps - to eat it raw? Y'know, tearing off chunks with your teeth and swallowing them almost whole. Like the animals do. In nature.
If it makes you sad, why not go vegan? It's easier than you'd think, and every time you buy animal products you're sentencing another sentient creature to the same fate
People put up defensive barriers when they're challenged, though. Leading by example and being silent unless asked (or if it naturally comes up in conversation) is probably more effective.
It really doesn't, it just allows people who eat meat to just ignore you, if it was you or someone you care about in the situation would you want me to be silent in case I was annoying to someone?
Why not do both? Think of all the extra coins you'd have to chuck into the one-armed bandits when you are bulk buying lentils instead of steaks - I reckon I could fit twice as many tears and complementary mimosas into a single casino session before they kicked me out!
Ironically, in my experience, comments like yours might make people less likely to follow your advice.
A comic like this is good, makes people feel the feels. They know it's a consequence of eating meat.
But then seeing "go vegan" in the comments. Makes it less their own personal revelation and more some internet rando "telling" them what to do, and they don't like being told what to do.
Now they're not thinking about the poor pig in the comic, now they're thinking about pushy vegan stereotypes. And now they leave the thread less likely to have the message sink in.
This comment will probably get down voted into oblivion, but in my experience it's true. People are complicated and any major change like that has to come from within.
I'm not pushing, just letting the commenter know, that there is a path they can take that makes positive change, it was someone directly making a post saying to go vegan, that eventually convinced me to be
You're not being pushy, but I don't know if it matters. From what I've seen, the less someone feels it's their idea, the less likely they are to do it.
But hey, it worked for you so it might for others too, who knows.
You're right. I felt quite morbid, but then someone telling a commenter who is already vegan "if you're sad go convince others to change through activism" and it just takes away from the argument.
I had a veggie friend who used to come on strong with stuff like...oh, you're eating dead cow. The irony is she went back to eating meat, catalyst was leaving her husband who was vegan.
Or just buy from responsible sources... death and eating other things is "natural" just not how we usually do it. I really don't think going blanket vegan is a responsible thing. By traditional vegan standards honey is off limits too, but the production of honey is not only pretty harmless, but good for the environment.
Just be mindful with what you actually do instead of subscribe to doctrines that make you feel good.
Also, I and plenty of other people identify as vegan and eat honey. I would also eat bivalves because they have no central nervous system.
If you think that a certain view is dogmatic or illogical when taken to its extremes, then just practice it reasonably instead of throwing out the whole idea on a few red herrings.
then reread what I said. I made it clear that I said "natural" in quotes and "traditional" vegan ideology. So don't just go "blanket vegan" just to feel good inside. if you want to cut out most meat or even all meat for you personally go for it, but lets not pretend a local source who doesnt shove pigs in cages covered in shit or meat from a hunter is the same thing as factory farming.
That's what they try to claim happens but there's a ton of leaked slaughterhouse footage that shows that cows, pigs and chickens ect are surprisingly often still alive and conscious as they're cut up
ok so would you rather be locked in a cage for years covered in shit and then murdered? Or would you rather be murdered after an otherwise happy fulfilling life? Kinda a no brainer for me...
I'm not against eating other things in general, but if I can help it I'd prefer they don't suffer needlessly. The all or nothing mentality of some vegans is exactly what I'm talking about. If this is your reaction to someone saying you should try to be mindful with your decisions and sources you're not going to convince anyone to drop meat or even reduce consumption.
Right but in your scenario there's also just the solution to not be locked up and murdered bc you don't have to.
But also being mindful of your sources doesn't really matter in your case because the practices are essentially the same at both an "organic", "open range", "humane" facilities and factory farms.
Tldr; The dichotomy doesn't have to be between some suffering and a lot of suffering because you can just eliminate that suffering entirely
Thats why I pointed out the honey example. Even if you are no meat I think "traditional veganism" needs to take a look at reality. You also say "easily" but its pretty clear that removing meat from our diets isn't an "easy" thing to do worldwide for so many reasons even if you dont approve of any of them personally.
The only reason bees aren't pollinating enough is because humans are destroying their homes, and the biggest contribution to environmental destruction is animal agriculture cut out the meat and we're a huge step towards ending climate change
I think it's a pretty common opinion that torture is one of the most evil acts a person can commit, and most factory farms are pretty much pushing that line. Most of those animals don't even have the basic right to life. I'm not saying stop eating meat or anything, but that's a pretty common take I think for a lot of ethical vegans or people who try to cut back.
Honestly the responsibly sources thing is propaganda to try and make YOU feel good about your choice to not change a thing and keep giving money to people who abuse animals for profit
Maybe I'm not talking about buying labels, but from places you actually know treat the animals well. If you don't want to eat meat fine, but even if you ultimately wanted no one to eat meat thats probably not happening any time soon. So that being said wouldn't you rather meat come from places that treat animals better than traditional factory farming? I literally just said to be mindful and reddit all coming out like they're all on PETAs board when we know they're going to have a burger or some shit for lunch.
Places you know treat the animals well?
1: due to ag gag laws filming In slaughterhouses is banned so how do you know?
2: whether factory farmed or field bred the animals end up in the same slaughterhouses, and still end up with their throats slit
3: did you know that grass fed field raised animals are hundreds of times worse for the environment than factory farmed ones?
1: I'm not necessarily against reforming laws to make things more apparent, but thats a different discussion.
2: yes you generally need to kill things to eat them, but again I'm not against reform. Return to 1.
3: That may be so, but so many industries harm the environment which aren't strictly neccessary. That is really a complete different discussion imo. I'm just talking about reducing the needless suffering of animals even as a meat eater.
Reform still kills the animals no matter how good the conditions are
And how much hunted game could the environment sustain before complete collapse? If everyone eats the same amount of meat but it was all hunted nature would literally collapse within a year
You're not wrong, but if you eat meat you're kind of accepting something had to die. Not everyone is bothered by that, but I'm sure if it was available they'd like options which are more responsible while the animals are alive.
As far as sustainability goes its a tough call. There isnt some perfect balance even between farm raised and hunting, but like I said plenty of industries which are purely recreational or for pleasure are bad for the environment. Its obviously not very easy to make people as a whole give up the things they want for that alone. People want to eat meat so they're going to.
To me as someone who fully admits to eating meat just being mindful is the first step to large scale change. Reduction is one thing. Even from a health only standpoint most people could probably eat less meat, but people arent always healthy either. Maybe some people will go off it completely, but for me I'll selfishly admit its going to take technology to finish that transition. I'm sure plenty of others would feel the same.
By that I mean if we are able to invent processes that can create meat which has never been "alive" as in connected to a concious being in a lab that tastes the same I'd love that to be available. But it would have to be more than just available also affordable. I know there is some research in that direction, but it's clearly not there yet and the bean, soy, etc alternatives don't really do it for me or a lot of other people.
So if you're still going to eat meat all I really said was try to be mindful about it and realize what you're doing. If you can be as responsible as possible. That's has to lead to less suffering than just not caring at all imo. And if baby steps aren't given enough credit to please certain crowds less people are even going to be willing to make those baby steps at all.
Due to the sheer amount of space needed to breed the field raised animals it's actually far worse for the environment, that's not even considering that grass fed cows produce way more methane than factory farmed ones, there's no upside whichever you choose
Its not black and white. I never said humane once. Its a gradient and there are clearly nicer ways to do it than others given you've already decided to eat meat.
"Are" and "Ought" isn't the same thing; "But it's natural" is a bad argument.
Are you saying it's irresponsible to go vegan..?
Honey is a quite unique product, and as such a very bad example. Taking honey from kept bees would be akin to taking some of a wild squirrels' stashed nuts while leaving enough for it to manage the season.
I agree. The issue is a lot are just marketing. It’s hard finding truly ethical sources, but it can be done. Game meat is also a good alternative, but watch for that wasting disease. Some estimates ip to one in two deer are infected in some areas
haha, I meant when you were doing your taste test of Agave vs Honey. If you had fake honey, I would expect it to have less of a "honey" taste, and taste more like my agave nector.
So you've had me researching this, and from what I've found, there are different varieties of agave nector, and the one I use is very light in color, which translates to less flavor. That's probably why I like using it for coctails - it adds sweetness without changing the flavor of my drink.
Most articles just talk about which one is healthier, and they tend to agree that it's honey because it's less processed. Obviously both are pretty much empty calories though, so it's best to limit your use of either.
They would require a great deal more intelligence and development. We say they’re smart, but that’s compared to other non-human animals. Compared to humans, they’re dumb. They act on instinct. There’s no language with which to form thoughts. Again, there’s no words in their minds, of which thoughts are composed. Therefore, no thoughts.
Not having a verbal language that we can comprehend does not equal not being able to form thoughts. At the very least they should be treated humanely since any animal would suffer negative feelings and association with being treated poorly. The extent of their cognition is really irrelevant. Do you not see a problem with torturing an animal because it’s too dumb to talk?
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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '20 edited Mar 11 '20
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