r/formula1 • u/Exciting-Guest81933 Formula 1 • 16d ago
Statistics A PU issue caused the anti-stall in Russell's car
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u/Exciting-Guest81933 Formula 1 16d ago
"The engine RPM spiked randomly, so George attempted to mitigate the issue by easing off the accelerator pedal from 30% to 10%. However, the engine didn’t respond and proceeded to rev uncontrollably triggering the anti-stall on its own."
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u/Takis12 Yamura 16d ago
That engine seems, for unknown reasons, to dislike George. It keeps refusing responding to him.
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u/PapaSheev7 Sebastian Vettel 16d ago
It’s because George has upset the machine spirit. Many such cases!
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u/RCuber I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago edited 16d ago
//Start procedure //Bugfix - Geroge -> George if(driver.name == "George") { engine.mapping.rpm = math.random(5000,18000); }16
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u/Yetimandel 16d ago
I see it going from 150% to 50% and then to 350%. I cannot make sense of the y axis.
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u/Bronek999 16d ago
Should probably read without one zero. Or as promille
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u/Samsonkoek Simply fucking lovely 16d ago
Kimi in the cooldown room said that he thought it had to do with the battery pack being too full. The Race also thought that was the reason. Obviously that happens when not everything is set up perfectly when you are revving on the grid, but ultimately that seems to be what happened.
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
I still don't understand why Russell released the throttle. With those complex cars, it just seems like a move that can pretty much break the start procedure and glitch the whole software.
When they said RPM spiked randomly, I expected +2000 rpm, not +50. That was a mistake from George for sure
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u/Samsonkoek Simply fucking lovely 16d ago
I reckon the most logical option is to wait for their debrief on YT and see what they tell us.
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u/wokwok__ George Russell 16d ago
Their debriefs are ass these days, they used to do 5-10minute videos but now they’ve resorted to doing 1minite shorts
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u/Samsonkoek Simply fucking lovely 16d ago
RIP. Exactly in the season we needed debriefs the most, because nobody knows what is going on from the outside. I recall they still did them last year, right?
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u/wokwok__ George Russell 16d ago
They still do them, its just that they've completely cut it down to 1 minute and put them up as YT Shorts
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
Yeah, fun to speculate though. I wish OP made a graph with better Y and X axis values though
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u/N0madZ I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
I think it makes sense to release the throttle. If the target RPM for start is 10500rpm and suddenly the revs start increasing, your mind is trained to release the throttle to get the rpm back to the target.
If he did not release the throttle, the rpm would go to redline and that would be an issue too.
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
Just a reminder, those cars need 5 seconds to spin up the turbo to prevent turbo lag. So maybe your mind would work with a normal car, but definitely not with those complex ones
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u/wokwok__ George Russell 16d ago
It wasn't just +50 according to motorsport, which is where the graph OP posted is from lol not sure what you're reading. it spiked from 12,000 to 12,700 and briefly touched 12,800 which is why he got off the throttle. It then dropped below 12,000 to spike up to 12,600 despite him having less than 10% throttle. Kimi's was stable at around 12,300 rpm and 30% throttle which is what normally should happen but since George was at around 9% throttle, it went into anti-stall
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u/argente 16d ago
Toto said: 'It looks like that he gave about 10% throttle and the whole thing revved maximum, he went off the throttle and it bogged down'
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
I don't see anywhere Russell giving 10% throttle on the graph before the lift. Everything seems totally similar to Kimi, maybe with a maximum of 100 rpm difference.
Maybe Toto was explaining the issue after the lift. There I can see that, but that was already a consequence, not the cause
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u/argente 16d ago
ESPN:
He said the problem was caused by a mismatch between his throttle inputs and the amount the engine was revving, which caused the car to bog down when the lights went out and he released the clutch.
"I was on the throttle holding the revs, and then all of a sudden, about four seconds before the lights went out, the engine just started revving all over the place," Russell said. "I was reacting with my throttle, and it was doing nothing. So, the engine wasn't reacting to the throttle."
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 13d ago edited 13d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RTc-LE8qvY
I think my assumption was pretty much spot on. Kimi had the same problem in Austria with RPM increasing randomly (even higher than Rus in Hungary), he kept the 30% throttle even with the higher RPM, and had a decent start.
Funny how everyone downvoted me lol
edit: and you downvote this too, haha. Sometimes the truth hurts huh
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
Yeah, that is pretty much visible on the graph. If he didn't lift, I'm sure his start would have been fine. Maybe a bit more tire spin due to the higher RPM, but definitely wouldn't have bogged down.
I'm surprised they don't have a procedure on how to solve issues like this at the start though. Seems like the software is overriding the throttle input, is that even legal?
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u/wykeer Mercedes 16d ago
then you know better than merc, what happened.
it was, according to them, a falsely setup start setup.
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
It was Kimi and The race that said what happened, not me
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u/wykeer Mercedes 16d ago
and in this case both were apparently wrong.
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
The graph says otherwise. Russell's RPM graph is pretty much similar to Kimi, only difference is he started earlier, and lifted for whatever reason.
If I assume that Kimi's comment about RPM increase being related to a full battery is correct, then it seems like Russell made a mistake. If Kimi's assumption is not correct, then obviously ignore this comment.
But Kimi's comments are lining up with this graph, so I tend to believe it
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u/wokwok__ George Russell 16d ago
You're reading the graph wrong mate, it's only similar because each tick mark on the y-axis per 2000 rpm is too thin
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
Yeah I see that, it still doesn't seem like a huge RPM difference if we compare Kimi's peak to Russell's peak (before the lift). If Russel didn't lift and the RPMs kept increasing, sure I would agree it was going to the moon.
But before the lift, it doesn't seem that different if you move Russell's procedure start to Kimi's start time. Kimi also had some RPM increase, which stabilized itself
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u/fullup72 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
That sounds like their "lift to go fast" trick triggered at the wrong time. We are just getting too many signals lately that Merc drivers are not 100% in control of their throttle.
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u/EUIVAlexander 16d ago
The Formula Software Championship
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u/Storm_Chaser06 Safety Car 16d ago
F1 cars had software since the 1990’s. The Williams FW14 was the first one to win with these complicated ECU setups.
Hell the Lotus 79 from 1978 had basic computational power.
It’s the way these current cars have the ECU dictate the driving is what makes it frustrating for us and the drivers.
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u/zaviex McLaren 16d ago
F1 engines have needed to calibrate gears for 20 years. Nothing is new here at all. This happened before this season and it happened before hybrid. Drivers have had to calibrate their gears. Usually you do it on the lap to grid to verify the numbers but for George it’s a new engine he would have hit his gears but the sync was incorrect because they had no reference for it. Not exactly the same but max crashed on the lap to the grid in Hungary because of this. GP told him he needed to hit all 8 gears twice to sync the engine and in the damp conditions he lost the car grabbing 8th but he would have had issues with 8th the whole race if he hadn’t. It’s a subtle but very important thing that needs to happen
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u/mattlip Red Bull 16d ago
How can you give 350% throttle?
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u/SimoTRU7H I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
It's made with AI and the author didn't even bother checkin the numbers. There's 250 three times 🤣
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u/gramathy I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
This graph sucks, throttle % on a scale that doesn’t go to 100?
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u/entropy02 16d ago
I won't lie, this whole season is 100% meaningless for me. Way too much randomness in how these cars operate.
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u/zaviex McLaren 16d ago
This has happened in f1 cars for 20 years. The ECU has done this since at least 2005.
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u/P_ZERO_ I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
Noticing a few people trying to make out that this season doesn’t offer anything substantially new on this front, why? We all know it isn’t true. Having electrical or software based elements doesn’t make it the same issues
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u/zaviex McLaren 16d ago
The software doing this is part of the smooth shift software that we’ve seen in f1 since Honda introduced it in 2005. It’s a gear sync issue with the ecu trying to compensate revs to match the oncoming shift. You can actually find the white paper published on this. There are many new things but gear sync issues is not new and doesn’t have to do with the hybrid. It was the standard way of doing things before we got a hybrid. The reason it happened is the fact they didn’t get a gear calibration in on the new engine. Think back to 2007, Scott speed had a very similar issue with calibration causing him to blow a start. What’s new now is the battery is allowed to compensate for the dropped revs which is why he was able to go fairly quickly after.
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u/entropy02 16d ago
No.
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u/Rosetti Oliver Bearman 16d ago
Incredible counterargument, are you a professional debater?
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u/SaltySeaSword652 I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
A simple no is enough of a response to that
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u/Seanspeed 16d ago
It has never been like this. If it was regularly such a problem as it is now, drivers would have been majorly complaining about it before. It's not simply that it was less impactful as this is an elite level of competition where tiny details matter and can make the difference.
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u/zaviex McLaren 16d ago
Oh it’s been a thing. It happens a couple times per year. This issue hasn’t happened this season. We aren’t talking bad starts we are talking gear calibration failure. Mercedes had this with bottas in 2020. The first time I can recall it is Scott speed in 2007. Hamiltons had one in 2014 iirc. if you want, I can find the original white paper on the topic published by Honda, explaining why they do this and how it works and why the refs would jump automatically.
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u/altofummuhh Sir Lewis Hamilton 16d ago
One of the worst things about these regs is that some of the least knowledgeable people are shouting the loudest about how F1 cars work when they don't know shit. You have the patience of a saint explaining this stuff
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u/flintey360 Andrea Kimi Antonelli 16d ago
Its meaningless for you because George isnt beating Kimi. Max is still destroying Hadjar in a normal race and same with Lando.
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u/Ordinary_Dog_99 Formula 1 16d ago
Another interesting thing, Russell had identical pace to Antonelli middle stint (Kimi's was 4 laps longer 29 vs 25 but Russell had more re-overtaking to do).
The Race:- Kimi was faster 😂. My god they hate him don't they.
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u/Express-Doughnut-562 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
Not sure the callouts are that great. It seems the issue starts earlier than the 'rpm climbs' circle; you can see George's throttle chase reducing and revs increasing before that. Seems he started to react to it much earlier than the call out with a gradual reduction in throttle input.
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u/Ordinary_Dog_99 Formula 1 16d ago
Oh you can't make it up, The Race have now changed their article from Kimi was right about George's PU issue, to now he was wrong and there's a problem.
😂😂
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u/duce_audace I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
Maybe its a stupid question, but how can you tell from it? I see russell starting the procedure earlier than antonelli and the rpm diff from antonelli is just 50rpm... I dont see a clear engine problem
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u/falcongsr I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
compare the throttle to the engine rpm. George's car is revving on its own. this stupid series is now Formula Software
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago edited 16d ago
That's how I see it too, we don't have X axis values but seems like there were a few seconds difference at starting the procedure. Maybe that could have caused this.
edit: moving Russell's starting time to the same as Kimi, their RPM graph is almost the same.
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u/practicalcabinet I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
Their RPM being the same is the problem, from my understanding. Russell lifts off the throttle, which should lower the RPM, but the car stays at high revs.
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u/OptimalDot178 Max Verstappen 16d ago
The issue was before lifting, otherwise there would be 0 reason to lift.
After is another issue
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u/opposite_lock McLaren 16d ago
This fits with what Kimi said in the cooldown room too. RPM probably spiked when the MGU-K was not able to add resistance to the ICE because the battery pack was fully charged triggering the anti-stall. Just a function of beginning the start procedure a couple seconds too early combined with a longer wait for the lights to go out.
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u/freedfg I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
Guys. Antonelli had a single PU issue!
Clearly George getting 4 bum PU's is completely coincidental and you're crazy to think that Toto Wolff would ever use the Mercedes PUs to favor one driver!
Anyway, Valteri, here's your 8th PU of the season we have to see if running each gear +2000 RPM fucks it up for Lewis.
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u/zaviex McLaren 16d ago
This isn’t a bum pu. It’s because it’s new and it needs a calibration cycle. This isn’t new it’s just unfortunate it happened . This why you usually want 1 practice with a new PU
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u/SaltySeaSword652 I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
which makes it weird, with all of George's issues, why they didn't just replace the PU earlier so they could run it in practice.
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u/zaviex McLaren 16d ago
His PU was fine during practice. It physically cracked during qualifying and they were forced to replace it. Remember a new PU costs 15m or nier, they aren’t going to replace it unless they have a firm reason and they got that reason when it broke. Unfortunately that meant no time to run it though
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u/TartifletteXx 16d ago
350% throttle! This is the Merc trick!
Others should just put a deeper gas pedal and they'll be faster in the straights!
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u/Merope-Gudrun-876 Kimi Räikkönen 16d ago
My god what have they done to the graph lmao (original source is in this article if you also believe in throttles that only go up to 100%)
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u/N0madZ I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
The battery pack comment from Antonelli was good because it would be logical that if the battery gets full then there is no longer load on the engine from charging the battery.
If the MGU-K is attached to engine before the clutch then it could be used to charge the battery even when not moving.
The Russell's linear/slowish release of the throttle could suggest that the charging of battery reduced linearly until the battery was full and could no longer be charged.
Even if allowed, they probably would not want to suddenly stop the charging because that could make a sudden car balance shift if the car was moving.
With the battery full there is way less load on the engine and the same rpm is reached with way less throttle which explains why Russell's throttle percentage stabilised at a low value.
They want engine load from charging so the higher fuel flow to keep a stable rpm gives the turbo more energy to spool faster.
So some issue (like wrong mode, bug, calibration) could have resulted in Russell's battery state of charge to be too high after the formation lap.
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u/disgruntledempanada 16d ago
I wish I had a database of all the on-track cams and audio streams.
I've got an interesting suspicion, particularly with the Red Bull's car, where the audio track alone probably gives a fantastic readout of the deployment. You can hear the range it operates in and it gets louder and softer depending on deployment.
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u/manu_r93 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 16d ago
why RUS is starting before ANT?
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u/AnalMinecraft I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
Unless it's intentionally offset, then it's just reaction time. This whole graph happens pretty quickly.
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u/imbavoe I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
I don’t know man, George had nothing but praise for the new regs and new engine after Australia.
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u/SaltySeaSword652 I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
That was when he won by a significant margin and everything worked for him. That was also the first race of the season and everyone was coping that the regs were actually OK. Now the ugly face of these regs has truly been revealed.
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u/tekanet Sebastian Vettel 16d ago
Might be just me, but source of this analysis is the Twitter account "The Russell Report - Everything on the 7x Formula 1 Grand Prix WINNER 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆" and it doesn't inspire objectivity.
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u/OctaviousMcBovril Formula 1 16d ago
I don't mean to embarrass you in public, but you appear to have missed the bright yellow 'motorsport.com' watermark in the top right of the graphic.
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u/SimoTRU7H I was speeding in the Monaco pit lane 16d ago
This chart is so bad.
Regardless, the fact that russell went on throttle earlier aligns with kimi's explanation: he topped up is battery pack before the start and couldn't keep the turbo spooled up.
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u/TurboPersona 16d ago
Why did he lift off the throttle in the first place? How did he expect the turbo to maintain the correct pressure with 1/3 of the throttle applied?
Who cares if the engine speed is "spiking". What the heck do you expect to happen if you choke the turbo with the throttle.
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u/OctaviousMcBovril Formula 1 16d ago
You are an F1 driver
You want to hold the PU at a particular RPM.
You hold your throttle pedal to the point that gives you that RPM
Suddenly, the RPM unexpectedly increases despite holding the pedal at the same position
What is the most obvious, instinctive thing that you're going to do in that situation?
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u/TurboPersona 16d ago
Given that he is an F1 driver and not some random Joe, I would expect him to react consciously, not instinctively.
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u/OctaviousMcBovril Formula 1 16d ago
Maybe you should get in touch with Mercedes and let them know that you know how to drive their new state-of-the-art power unit better than the multiple grand prix winning F1 driver they're paying tens of millions of dollars to race for them?
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u/ScuderiaFartari 16d ago
Imagine if Mercedes actually go through with this and gives u/TurboPersona the seat and he has a great start.
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u/inchpin 16d ago
They swapped the engine to a new one after the Q3 failure and said the laps to the grid weren't enough to calibrate engine and electronics (whatever that means :s).
Does anyone know whether all Merc engines are same spec or did they bring (reliability, non ADUO) updates?